1. #26
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    yeah i think that the ladders should be equiped with that stuff.

  2. #27
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    Just last week, I was in a training class where we watched video of a residential worker in some northern city (honestly don't remember who). The first unit to respond was the Battalion Chief. The second unit to respond? A truck company with no pump or water. The third unit to respond? The second-due truck, which had no pump or water. Talking about having a ton of firefighters on scene and not being able to do much...

    With that said, I think a truck should have a pump so that it doesn't have to tie up up an engine when they put the ladder pipes up. I think a little water would be nice so that not once do you fall into a situation where "The Fire Department" arrives on scene and can't do anything. (BTW, the public sees us collectively as "The Fire Department" and not as engine, truck or rescue companies.)

    This doesn't have to be a structure fire, either. I've heard stories of truck companies pulling up on car fires, etc. while out in their district. Essentially, their two options were to pass the fire and **** off the citizens or pull up to the fire, do nothing and **** off the citizens. Perhaps in very large cities, there is an engine company just around the block. But in medium & small cities, that engine company is often tied up on a medical run.

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    If your truck is beating the engine into a worker then there may be something wrong with the system you have set up. Also, we went over the fact that an engine's job is to supply a ladder in defensive ops...let the truck do its job. Like I said though its a great tool for small city and volly departments but still waiting to see how it would work in the city. The main thing is one truck can't do everything good. I've seen so many 75ft quint's on the new delevery section of websites and to me they look like glorified engine's and not a tried and true truck.
    Last edited by stcommodore; 03-06-2005 at 05:58 PM.
    Bucks County, PA.

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    I guess the angle of departure never came up with the pierce guys that sold them the rigs.
    ...I noticed this too. We run a quint in a small town population 7K, if we have an engine go out of service we still have another pumping apparatus, it runs on structure fire response as a TRUCK Co.,and is expected to do truck work. I agree that there is no reason not to have a pump and water on a ladder truck quint thingy.
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    So in Manhattan where they have 43 engine companies and 32 Truck's all of those trucks should have a pump thingy?
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    Default lost sight of issue

    I think that some of the replies have lost sight of the issue. I think I am a little guilty in the original post. I didn't intend this to be a quint or no quint, we would lose personnel type discussion.

    The main point of this is to examine your opinion on whether or not a ladder truck ( aerial, platform, etc.)should have a pump and water tank.

    In some instances I think that it is not a good idea. I mean unless you are running as a true quint then who has the manpower to do engine company operations also. Plus what are the chances that the next company on scene will be another ladder company to begin ladder work. If you need water on a call use a can, if you need more then call an engine company.

    Of course when it comes to individual departments then the demographics have a key role in this decision.

  8. #33
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    Originally posted by stcommodore
    So in Manhattan where they have 43 engine companies and 32 Truck's all of those trucks should have a pump thingy?
    IMHO, yes. I belive there was a story posted in the forums not to long ago about a fatality fire in NYC, when a truck was first on due to the closest engine being on an EMS run, and there ended up being a delay in fire attack. Now, I dont claim to know all the details, or if it would have mattered if that truck had a pump. But its an example of how even in NYC, it can happen.

    The question was, should ladder trucks need to be equiped with pumps and tanks, not do all trucks need to be quints. Unless thats what the poster was reffering too. If that is the case then my answer is no, all trucks do not need to be quints. BUT, they all should have at least a limited firefighting ability (as should rescues).

    Someone earlier said it best. John Q sees a BRT, and expects it to put water on fire. They dont understand trucks, engines, quints, rescues.
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    Someone earlier said it best. John Q sees a BRT, and expects it to put water on fire. They dont understand trucks, engines, quints, rescues. [/B][/QUOTE]

    I remeber when that happend and I think it had little to do with what truck was first but that the first due was on a CFR run. But I could be wrong...The simple fact is what John Q see's most of the time won't be the case so why should be try and change for him? Without going into what I already said with pic's and explination a truck can't do everything good. The idea that well heck one day on our ladder we might need to put out a car fire is flawed logic. Cause heck one day we might be first in on a extracation so we should have full MVA tools, and then after the wreak we'll see a Hazmat job then an all out water rescue which turns into a confined space MCI. 10-4?
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    Sorry Dave, but I have to respectfully disagree. Just because "John Q" doesn't always understand what we are doing doesn't mean we are wrong. If your FD benefits from having a pump/tank on your ladder truck then go for it. A lot of FD's don't work that way for various reasons (mine included), no harm in that either. Just go with what's best for YOUR situation, that's all. -46

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    No.

    You are already taking a complex piece of equipment and adding more "stuff" to it. The additional weight will require a larger engine and teransmission, additional axle, etc. Addtinal component mean more $$$$$$$$ in additonal cost to acquisition and maintenance.

    The Mass Fire Academy has a Pierce Arrow aerial with the tank and pump. I can't recall ever seeing or using the pump/tank on the aerial for fire attack, even in training.
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  12. #37
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    Originally posted by cozmosis
    With that said, I think a truck should have a pump so that it doesn't have to tie up up an engine when they put the ladder pipes up.
    and that is the only reason to put a pump on a ladder. I've heard of a career department that hooked up a 5 inch line from the hydrant into the ladder (and the hose came off an engine company), and you didn't get anywhere near the pressure you needed to flow water from the ladder pipe.

    I would say yes, put it on the ladder. make it a quint, but run it as a truck. if you want, put a preconnected hoseline or two on the truck, but they will probably never be used. none of this BS of "well, it's a quint, so we only need 1 vehicle instead of an engine and a ladder." that's BS, you still need the manpower to do both jobs. that's like putting a squirt on an engine. does that mean it's going to do truck work? no, it's a damn engine, but if need be, it can flow water from an elevated stream. that doesn't make it a truck though.

    it's better to have it when in case someone needs it, then not have it and be unable to get the job done.
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  13. #38
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    Ok.......I hope I do not lose any friends over this or any respect from my IACOJ Brothers.....but.... (my son disowns me when I say this).....but I think a quint is important these days.

    My department is a small department with only one station and 5 people per shift. Our ladder truck is 31 yrs old and has no water or pump. We have doubled the size of the city in area and expect an additional 3000 homes in the next 5-7 years. We have been told that we will have to open another station in this annexed area in the next 18 months. That means more people and more apparatus.

    Our first out pumper is a 2000. The next newest pumper is almost 20 yrs old and the next one is a 1975. In order to have a dependable pumper at the new station we will move the 2000 the new place. That leaves an outdated ladder and an old pumper in the middle of the city. We can not afford to replace both so we will replace 3 pieces with one and we do not have enough manpower to staff 2 pumpers and an aerial. We will attempt to add 3 F/F per shiftto beef up staffing. The Quint will run first out on all fires in that part of the district. We have a smaller rescue style truck to run the BLS Calls with. Our thoughts are that the QUINT should stay in the commercial/business district, so it will end up positioned for use as opposed to being second in and potentially stuck on hydrant.

    That is why we will get a Quint. We are looking at a big beast....100' Tower with 500 Gallon tank with foam cell and a 2000 GPM pump. Looking at Sutphin right now in the immediate future, specially because they are the only ones that can give us the water. I would be interested in hearing (either here or by email smettinger@ci.brooksville.fl.us )your opinions. One may argue that we do not need 500 gallons because we have a better than decent water system but I am not comfortable with less than that on a first out piece.
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    Everything aboout how people feel about this issue depends on where they are --- what type of department, what type of community, number of engine/truck companies available, budget, etc etc etc...

    I think most people would agree that larger cities with a substaincial number of engine companies available do not need water and a pump on a truck company already crammed with tools. Once we get into smaller cities and surburban areas, no matter if the staffing is career, vollie or combo, it becomes a tougher question.

    The department I recently left in Vermont had 17,000 residents and was covered by 2 volunteer departments. We bought an ex-FDNY Aerialscope in '91 and ran with it until '02. When it was replaced in '02, we went with a quint with the idea of being able to retire the 3rd pumper in the station that ran with it as it's supply piece. We designated it as a truck ... for TRUCK work only. The tank was there primarily to protect the guys in the bucket if the water supply crapped out while they got themselves out of harm's way. Sure it can handle a small fire ... but that's not what it was purchased for and always runs behind at least 1 pump and most of the time 2.
    In other communties it may work out better as the attack truck suported by pumps ..it's all local.

    Just my thoughts.

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    i really like the way our aerial is set up. its a 95 foot aerial platform with a 1500 gpm hale pump and a 200 gallon tank, basically its just enough to charge the masterstream so you can get it into operation quickly. and once you get it going its got one badass flow rate. it works great for a volly company.

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    Question

    I'll pose this question to those who feel EVERY FD appartatus should have a Pump/hose etc....

    Why don't all of your Engines have a 110 ft. Aerial or Platform? Why don't they all carry Trench Equipment and Ice Rescue Suits and High Angle Equipment and Level A Suits and an A, B, C kit for Haz-Mat????

    What if you showed up to that one highrise in your city and someone needed rescuing from the 8th floor? Or some workers at the Water plant were overcome with Clorine fumes?

    Because they CAN'T do everything!

    The Army doesn't purchase vehicles that do EVERYTHING. They have Tanks, Howitzers, Personell carriers, Humvees...etc. Not every rig can do everything. It doesn't make eccomic sense to do so.

    The Airforce doesn't have planes that carry supplies like vehilcles, and food and also refules other planes, acts as a fighter plane and a long range bomber all at the same time? No they all divide those tasks appropriately among all the different types of aircraft.

    I feel places that do this are only demonstrating their lack of knowledge on sound tactics and lack of real analysis on the subject...and before you accuse me of being some NY guy who doesn't know what he is talking about...I was a Fireman for the better part of a Decade in Rural and Suburban areas(far removed from NY) where this quint thing took off and I spent most of my time on one of those all-in-one wonder wagons...Despite the mens best efforts, It was a joke.

    You take a Ladder Co. with 5 men and 1 officer and have them do Engine work...off an apparatus not actually suited for line deployment...who is going to do the Truck work, how are they going to get any Engine work done with out the accompaning Truck duties?

    Are there places where this Quint thing is good...sure. Where an isolated town only has maybe 3 or 4 appartaus in service and the mutal aid is 15-30 min away. That is a good reason to have it. Just like where Captstanm1 is and in his situation.

    Dave I'm sorry but urban/suburban needs are not that of rural Florida. Don't use the FDNY example because it doesn't apply. Come to NY and it would only take 5 seconds to figure out why your idea won't work. As for Ladder Co.10, that is an extreem example and no it isn't practical or necessary to have pumps on the ladders there or even in residentail sections of Queens and Brooklyn and SI.

    I'll say this loud and clear once again... "YOU AREN'T TYING UP ENGINES BY HAVING THEM PUMP WATER TO LADDER TRUCKS FOR ELEVATED STREAMS!!! THAT IS WHY YOU BOUGHT THE ENGINE AND BROUGHT IT TO THE FIRE!

    I've heard of a career department that hooked up a 5 inch line from the hydrant into the ladder (and the hose came off an engine company), and you didn't get anywhere near the pressure you needed to flow water from the ladder pipe.
    I don't know the whole situation and apparenly neither do you since you "heard" it. But the Engine Co. in question should be ashamed of themselves if they couldn't supply enough water to the ladder. As long as it wasn't a mechanical failure...there should be no reason why the Engine can't supply a Tower Ladder with the appropriate pressures for an adequate stream. Especailly with 5 inch hose which has negligible Friction loss. Also what kind of tip did they have...if it was one of those silly fog tips than that is 50 lbs. of your answer right there.

    And as for you not buying it that a company can't do both...Sure they can...but they can't do it well? What do you have to compare it too? Have you ever worked in a system where there are Engine men and Truckies? How does anyone compare one system to another if they haven't worked in both? I have worked in Both type systems and there is no comparison. Much smoother operation, less confusion and much safer overall. That is where my opinions are based and come from.

    Just the same as my prior argument... The military doesn't train an Infantry man to drive and operate a Tank, and a Missle Battery, and a personell carrier..etc. Each has its own people that are trained in each specific operation. The only ones who can do both are special forces types which are often trained how to operate tanks as well as infantry tactics. I think the greater fire services move from Military attidudes to those of Private industry have brought about much of this sillyness and lack of focus.

    Although it may seem simple to most who haven't experinced it there is alot that one picks up when they focus on one set of skills mostly. I know some Truckies who have never in their career put out a fire with a handline...Where as I know most Engine men haven't VESed from a bucket in to the Deadmans room of a Brownstone.

    We do have some who are well versed in both...they are Squad companies and they Train constantly. Even though those of us who aren't in SOC bust thier balls, they are a highly motivated group and in order too keep their skills up it takes alot of effort. They train at the level that is required to keep Engine and Truck skills (along with some Haz-Mat and Rescue type skills as well) I seriously doubt any of your depts even comes close. There aren't that many out there who drill as much as what is really required.

    While I have worked tours in the Truck I still am not as proficent as they are in getting to the roof, cutting with the saw, forcing the doors, and searching appartments...etc. Because they do it more often than I do. When Engine guys are detalied to the Truck they are often given the positions that keep them under the supervision of the officer or where they will be teamed up with other truckies. Just the same a Truckie NEVER gets the knob or rarely the Control in My Engine under most circumstances...they are given the Back-up or if we have one the Doorman positions in most cases.

    Just the same myself along with the other Engine guys can strech faster, more accurately and advance the line more proficently than a group of Truckies.

    And this isn't just a NY Thing...It is common in other depts that specailize their companies instead of "believing" they can do all... Chicago, LACity, Houston, Indianapolis, Kansas City, Cincinnati... All their Truckies are good at it. Much better than one of those "cross-trained" dept I was once familiar with.

    Too many it seems are focused on what a rig has or doesn't have on it...when they should be focused on what the staffing is and what those members are assigned to do. I see FFs from all over the country who visit my Firehouse and from their questions about us, ours about theirs and their responses I get a good feel about what is going on out there in the rest of America. They often ask about what size the pump is on the Engine (and are surprised about the Trucks lack of one). They get confused about postions and task assignments. Many FFs seem to be as misguided as John Q in that they focus on what the apparatus has and not how many men are on it and what do they do!

    Placing a pump on a ladder when there are plenty of Engines is nothing short of ignorant and wasteful. And if your ladders are consistantly showing up before Engines then you either don't have enough Engines or are sending them on too much BS EMS to keep their availbility up at an appropriate level.

    I can garuantee that your dept isn't staffed or set up for that 1 time out of 1000 fire where you will be overwhelmed...you plan for most of your fires. If the Ladder truck shows up well before the Engine companies 1 out of 1000 times then that is acceptable and perhaps one should look at the number of engine runs, should we relocate companies faster, or do we more Engines if it becomes a common problem. That is sound planning and firefighting strategy...not placing a pump on a ladder because thats what "John Q" thinks he needs. If I did what John Q though we wouldn't break his windows. force his doors cut holes in his roof or use lots of water to make sure the fire is out. John Q pays his $$$ for fire protection not to tell you how to provide it. You are proffesional firefighters...you are hired to tell him what he needs.

    In my past depts. There were ALWAYS Engines sitting around not using their pumps and hose and Quints with every line off pumping near capacity...If I held the purse strings in those cities I would be asking serious questions of the Chief why we are buying pumps on ladder trucks when we have Engines doing nothing at fires other than acting as manpower carriers!

    Although it depends on the situation most Urban/Suburban Depts don't need pumps on ladders and most rural/isolated small towns might need them. Don't confuse the two situations.

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    Last edited by FFFRED; 03-07-2005 at 06:04 PM.

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    Originally posted by FFFRED
    I don't know the whole situation and apparenly neither do you since you "heard" it. But the Engine Co. in question should be ashamed of themselves if they couldn't supply enough water to the ladder. As long as it wasn't a mechanical failure...there should be no reason why the Engine can't supply a Tower Ladder with the appropriate pressures for an adequate stream. Especailly with 5 inch hose which has negligible Friction loss. Also what kind of tip did they have...if it was one of those silly fog tips than that is 50 lbs. of your answer right there.
    your right, I don't know the whole situation, as I wasn't there. I was told this by the training officer of said career department. and it was more like of an "oops" by the engine company than a mechanical problem. from what he said, the chief was fuming, and instructed the training officer to have ladder pipe operations as the next days training topic with the entire crew. and from what my chief told me, he has had it happen with our tower too, with a mutual aid company hooking directly from the hydrant to the truck (an oops, not a mechanical failure).

    and you'll note, I never said that a quint replaces an engine company, or that a truck with a pump should be doing anything with water except for flowing from the bucket. a truck company who use a truck with a pump should still be doing truck work, while an engine company should be doing engine work. and rescue should be doing whatever the IC needs to get done.

    if you use the analogy that an engine shouldn't do any truck work, or have an truck equipment, then why should you have any ladders on it? after all, wouldn't any need for them be the responsibility of the truck company?

    off topic, what's the deadman's room in a brownstone?
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    DrParasite,

    I don't know that I infered that you said a truck with a pump should be doing anything else...I might have been refering to another poster...sorry for the confusion.

    As for the Engine feeding the Hydrant directly to the Truck...I am speachless and I can't even imagine why anyone would even think of doing that. That doesn't reflect well on that Engine, its officers or the Chiefs of its Battalion. That is such a simple and basic operation that I wonder what other things that company/dept. is overlooking.

    One thing with the pump on the Truck. That requires another operator to operate the turntable in addition to the pump pannel in the early going as an another MPO will be operating the pump of the Engine or Quint Truck whatever you have at the hydrant.

    I don't know how many depts can really afford to have 3 operators thus taking one away from other critical operations... search, vent etc.

    Off topic:
    As for the off topic Deadmans room. In a Brownstone which is the Urban equivilant to a Private Dwelling. The Deadmans room is the room directly over the Parlor Stairs on upper floors and if it is being used as a Private Dwelling and not a converted MD the room only opens up to the main hall and open and unenclosed stairway. This leads to many persons who have been trapped in this room and also many who have died thus the name Deadman's room. This is a critical area for the OVM to search.

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  19. #44
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    Dave I'm sorry but urban/suburban needs are not that of rural Florida.
    For what its worth, I dont consider a county of 210 sq miles, 980,000 full time residents and over 4 million visitors a year "rural". Oh, we also have 63 PAID fire sations. Again, not your typical rural

    Ok...Im going to try and make my point ONE LAST TIME. Please try and avoid the temptation to wonder off into quints are manpower killers or trucks should only do truck work or all engines should have aerial platforms, as you would be missing my point.

    All trucks DO NOT have to be quints. There IS a place for "straight" truck companys.

    HOWEVER, I belive ALL thrucks should have SOME ability to attack a fire.

    IMHO, to have a piece of apparatus of that size and cost, with 4 or 5 FF's on it, that is unable to put some water/foam on a dumpster if they happen across one, makes no sense me.

    And BTW, the military doesnt cross train everyone on every piece of equipment. But in a combate situation Im pretty sure evryone has at least one firearm available "just in case". In the fire service, a hose and some type of extinguishing agent is our "firearm". And that, Brothers, is my point.

    That is all
    Last edited by Dave1983; 03-07-2005 at 06:42 PM.
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    The department I recently left in Vermont had 17,000 residents and was covered by 2 volunteer departments. We bought an ex-FDNY Aerialscope in '91 and ran with it until '02. When it was replaced in '02, we went with a quint with the idea of being able to retire the 3rd pumper in the station that ran with it as it's supply piece. We designated it as a truck ... for TRUCK work only. The tank was there primarily to protect the guys in the bucket if the water supply crapped out while they got themselves out of harm's way. Sure it can handle a small fire ... but that's not what it was purchased for and always runs behind at least 1 pump and most of the time 2.
    In other communties it may work out better as the attack truck suported by pumps ..it's all local.
    That new quint is pretty sharp looking.
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    Yes it is 343 .. they got it just a few months before I left. Was a big change from the old Mack, though the Mack sure had a real rugged look and was a damn tough old bird.
    They just took delivery of a new Stuphen engine a couple of months ago too which is a beautiful rig.... the damn thing has more cabinet space than Martha Stewart's shoe closet. Was funny as heck when I walked in to the bays .. they had the old '62 International parked between the '02 Tower and the '05 engine ... looked sorta weird but made me feel good to see the old rig still running .. sorta like me.

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    Dave,

    The trucks do have the water and foam in Pressurized water extinguishers, AFFF extinguishers and CO2 and Purple K.

    Similar to my military analogy a tank while it is made with large caliber weapons to engage heavy armor and such also has a smaller machine guns to deal with infantry if the need arrises. Much like the Truck carries the Can for its needs and operations at fires.

    However in most cases a Dumpster fire can wait for an Engine. If thats your reasoning I must strongly disagree for the need for pumps and hose. After all a Dumpster is garbage.

    And I don't think my question of you or anyone else that should all your Engines need 110ft aerials or Level A suits is any different than what you present as why all Ladders need a pump and hose. My view is that it illustrates how absurd the need for a pump on every apparatus is.

    The question asked was "Should Ladder/Aerial Apparatus Be Equipped With A Pump And Water Tank?" A pump and Water tank along with any associated hose is in direct conflict with the Ladder Co's assignment and tools used on the fireground. It doesn't compliment any of its operations as it would only be a duplication of the Mission of the Engine Co.

    Just the same the 110 ft aerial on an Engine duplicates the services of Ladder companies and the Level A suits with contaiment kits duplicates the need for a haz-mat/rescue/SOC or whatever you call it.

    Considering you yourself mentioned in another topic that you are against duplication of services and government waste...I would think you & I would be in aggrement on this subject. Because that is what we are really talking about...duplication of the Duties and responsiblies of the Engine Company.

    The same could be said for any piece of equipment or tool. It is important to build a tiered system and based on need and response times provide the appropriate companies to deal with the fires in the shortest amount of time with the appropriate staffing, equipment and apparatus. There is finite cash available...spend it effectively.

    Everyone complains about how little money they have for their respective FDs is...however they still go and buy tools and features on their apparatus that they don't really need. When you send 3-5 companies to a typical fire and your city is surrounded by Engines or other cities with Engines with pumps and rare or non-existant is the fire where every pump is being used to capacity there is little need to add pumps to apparatus that will not be used because there are already enough there. It comes down to simple fiscal management...if I buy something for you and you don't use it or need it why should I replace it or buy you more of them?

    FTM-PTB

    PS- DrParasite...the Portable ladder on my Engine I can say without a doubt has never been used. It is a waste of space mandated by I think the insurance underwriters. It is the ultimate "just there in case tool we have". There are probably more roof rope rescues than Engine portable ladders being put into use! Is it good that it is there...I guess so... but it is only 24 ft won't reach much and if I ever see it used I'll really be surprised!
    Last edited by FFFRED; 03-07-2005 at 07:32 PM.

  23. #48
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    Originally posted by LaFireEducator
    Yes it is 343 .. they got it just a few months before I left. Was a big change from the old Mack, though the Mack sure had a real rugged look and was a damn tough old bird.
    They just took delivery of a new Stuphen engine a couple of months ago too which is a beautiful rig.... the damn thing has more cabinet space than Martha Stewart's shoe closet. Was funny as heck when I walked in to the bays .. they had the old '62 International parked between the '02 Tower and the '05 engine ... looked sorta weird but made me feel good to see the old rig still running .. sorta like me.
    Yeah, for some reason Chittenden County had lots of ex-FDNY / Mack rigs coming through it. Specifically the Aerialscopes. Hopefully when I'm in NYC I can visit some of the companies that SBFD got some of it's rigs from.

    Get yourself of the new Sutphen calender. I believe their rig is in it.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThNozzleMan
    Why? Because we are firemen. We are decent human beings. We would be compelled by the overwhelming impulse to save an innocent child from a tragic, painful death because in the end, we are MEN.

    I A C O J
    FTM-PTB


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  24. #49
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    In Bucks Co, PA One of Engine 52-1's first workers they made a save using there ground ladder....I think it was useful then.
    Bucks County, PA.

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    Photos By Sam Simon (c)2004
    Bristol Boro, Bucks County. Nov. 26 2004. 1475 Radcliffe St.
    D/C-53 arrived on scene of a 2 1/2 story bar with apartments above, with heavy smoke showing and a person trapped on the second floor. Engine 52-1 arrived and placed a ground ladder to the second floor to rescue one person. Command had heavy fire second floor, requested the second alarm. All other searches were negative.
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    Bucks County, PA.

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