Firehouse.com poll - Should ladder trucks be equipped with a pump and water tank?

[stcommodore]

I don't think any one way is the best way to do things. The way JFL you and I have our respective aparatus set up are probaby all 'right' for our local but would be 'wrong' if we tried to change them. A 75ft quint could be a life saver to some small town desprate for the man power but to others it might as well be a mini-pumper compared to there needs.

[MemphisE34a]

I concure Commodore.

[stcommodore]

Glad to hear it...I think jft is talking about how some goverment types would take the quint as a way to cut staffing. When in fact the qunit is to enhance or support staffing issues.

[MemphisE34a]

Maybe some people could find an angle to allow a quint to increase manpower and support operations but it wouldn't fly here.

For example, I am in a station that houses a single engine company, an ambulance, and a chief. I am surrounded by stations that have both engines and trucks. Station 30 & T12 to the north, E35 & T17 to the east, E33 & T16 to the west, E50 & T21 to the south.

If the quint concept was introduced here creating Quints 30, 33, 35, and 50 operating in dual roles, we would lose 50% of the people in those stations. We would decrease staffing. Additionally, it would hurt operations because farther responding companies would be needed to get the same compliment of personnel on the scene.

I am not against a truck being equipped as a quint, but I don't see how it can increase your staffing or operations. If we operated like St. Louis we would have about 150 fewer jobs. Who does that enhance other than 'those government types'?

[stcommodore]

I must agree with you and for the life of me can't find a big city application for a quint. A combi rig like a good rescue pumper sure but in the big city I need someone to explain how a quint would be needed or provide some service already lacking.

[SANDIDGEW]

yeah i think that the ladders should be equiped with that stuff.

[cozmosis]

Just last week, I was in a training class where we watched video of a residential worker in some northern city (honestly don't remember who). The first unit to respond was the Battalion Chief. The second unit to respond? A truck company with no pump or water. The third unit to respond? The second-due truck, which had no pump or water. Talking about having a ton of firefighters on scene and not being able to do much...

With that said, I think a truck should have a pump so that it doesn't have to tie up up an engine when they put the ladder pipes up. I think a little water would be nice so that not once do you fall into a situation where "The Fire Department" arrives on scene and can't do anything. (BTW, the public sees us collectively as "The Fire Department" and not as engine, truck or rescue companies.)

This doesn't have to be a structure fire, either. I've heard stories of truck companies pulling up on car fires, etc. while out in their district. Essentially, their two options were to pass the fire and **** off the citizens or pull up to the fire, do nothing and **** off the citizens. Perhaps in very large cities, there is an engine company just around the block. But in medium & small cities, that engine company is often tied up on a medical run.

[stcommodore]

If your truck is beating the engine into a worker then there may be something wrong with the system you have set up. Also, we went over the fact that an engine's job is to supply a ladder in defensive ops...let the truck do its job. Like I said though its a great tool for small city and volly departments but still waiting to see how it would work in the city. The main thing is one truck can't do everything good. I've seen so many 75ft quint's on the new delevery section of websites and to me they look like glorified engine's and not a tried and true truck.

[stcommodore]

L30

[Weruj1]

I guess the angle of departure never came up with the pierce guys that sold them the rigs.

...I noticed this too. We run a quint in a small town population 7K, if we have an engine go out of service we still have another pumping apparatus, it runs on structure fire response as a TRUCK Co.,and is expected to do truck work. I agree that there is no reason not to have a pump and water on a ladder truck quint thingy.

[stcommodore]

So in Manhattan where they have 43 engine companies and 32 Truck's all of those trucks should have a pump thingy?

[FireCritic]

I think that some of the replies have lost sight of the issue. I think I am a little guilty in the original post. I didn't intend this to be a quint or no quint, we would lose personnel type discussion.

The main point of this is to examine your opinion on whether or not a ladder truck ( aerial, platform, etc.)should have a pump and water tank.

In some instances I think that it is not a good idea. I mean unless you are running as a true quint then who has the manpower to do engine company operations also. Plus what are the chances that the next company on scene will be another ladder company to begin ladder work. If you need water on a call use a can, if you need more then call an engine company.

Of course when it comes to individual departments then the demographics have a key role in this decision.

[Dave1983]

Originally posted by stcommodore
So in Manhattan where they have 43 engine companies and 32 Truck's all of those trucks should have a pump thingy?

IMHO, yes. I belive there was a story posted in the forums not to long ago about a fatality fire in NYC, when a truck was first on due to the closest engine being on an EMS run, and there ended up being a delay in fire attack. Now, I dont claim to know all the details, or if it would have mattered if that truck had a pump. But its an example of how even in NYC, it can happen.

The question was, should ladder trucks need to be equiped with pumps and tanks, not do all trucks need to be quints. Unless thats what the poster was reffering too. If that is the case then my answer is no, all trucks do not need to be quints. BUT, they all should have at least a limited firefighting ability (as should rescues).

Someone earlier said it best. John Q sees a BRT, and expects it to put water on fire. They dont understand trucks, engines, quints, rescues.

[stcommodore]

Someone earlier said it best. John Q sees a BRT, and expects it to put water on fire. They dont understand trucks, engines, quints, rescues. [/B][/QUOTE]

I remeber when that happend and I think it had little to do with what truck was first but that the first due was on a CFR run. But I could be wrong...The simple fact is what John Q see's most of the time won't be the case so why should be try and change for him? Without going into what I already said with pic's and explination a truck can't do everything good. The idea that well heck one day on our ladder we might need to put out a car fire is flawed logic. Cause heck one day we might be first in on a extracation so we should have full MVA tools, and then after the wreak we'll see a Hazmat job then an all out water rescue which turns into a confined space MCI. 10-4?

[SAFD46Truck]

Sorry Dave, but I have to respectfully disagree. Just because "John Q" doesn't always understand what we are doing doesn't mean we are wrong. If your FD benefits from having a pump/tank on your ladder truck then go for it. A lot of FD's don't work that way for various reasons (mine included), no harm in that either. Just go with what's best for YOUR situation, that's all. -46

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

No.

You are already taking a complex piece of equipment and adding more "stuff" to it. The additional weight will require a larger engine and teransmission, additional axle, etc. Addtinal component mean more $$$$$$$$ in additonal cost to acquisition and maintenance.

The Mass Fire Academy has a Pierce Arrow aerial with the tank and pump. I can't recall ever seeing or using the pump/tank on the aerial for fire attack, even in training.

[HeavyRescueTech]

Originally posted by cozmosis
With that said, I think a truck should have a pump so that it doesn't have to tie up up an engine when they put the ladder pipes up.

and that is the only reason to put a pump on a ladder. I've heard of a career department that hooked up a 5 inch line from the hydrant into the ladder (and the hose came off an engine company), and you didn't get anywhere near the pressure you needed to flow water from the ladder pipe.

I would say yes, put it on the ladder. make it a quint, but run it as a truck. if you want, put a preconnected hoseline or two on the truck, but they will probably never be used. none of this BS of "well, it's a quint, so we only need 1 vehicle instead of an engine and a ladder." that's BS, you still need the manpower to do both jobs. that's like putting a squirt on an engine. does that mean it's going to do truck work? no, it's a damn engine, but if need be, it can flow water from an elevated stream. that doesn't make it a truck though.

it's better to have it when in case someone needs it, then not have it and be unable to get the job done.

[captstanm1]

Ok.......I hope I do not lose any friends over this or any respect from my IACOJ Brothers.....but.... (my son disowns me when I say this).....but I think a quint is important these days.

My department is a small department with only one station and 5 people per shift. Our ladder truck is 31 yrs old and has no water or pump. We have doubled the size of the city in area and expect an additional 3000 homes in the next 5-7 years. We have been told that we will have to open another station in this annexed area in the next 18 months. That means more people and more apparatus.

Our first out pumper is a 2000. The next newest pumper is almost 20 yrs old and the next one is a 1975. In order to have a dependable pumper at the new station we will move the 2000 the new place. That leaves an outdated ladder and an old pumper in the middle of the city. We can not afford to replace both so we will replace 3 pieces with one and we do not have enough manpower to staff 2 pumpers and an aerial. We will attempt to add 3 F/F per shiftto beef up staffing. The Quint will run first out on all fires in that part of the district. We have a smaller rescue style truck to run the BLS Calls with. Our thoughts are that the QUINT should stay in the commercial/business district, so it will end up positioned for use as opposed to being second in and potentially stuck on hydrant.

That is why we will get a Quint. We are looking at a big beast....100' Tower with 500 Gallon tank with foam cell and a 2000 GPM pump. Looking at Sutphin right now in the immediate future, specially because they are the only ones that can give us the water. I would be interested in hearing (either here or by email smettinger@ci.brooksville.fl.u s )your opinions. One may argue that we do not need 500 gallons because we have a better than decent water system but I am not comfortable with less than that on a first out piece.

[LaFireEducator]

Everything aboout how people feel about this issue depends on where they are --- what type of department, what type of community, number of engine/truck companies available, budget, etc etc etc...

I think most people would agree that larger cities with a substaincial number of engine companies available do not need water and a pump on a truck company already crammed with tools. Once we get into smaller cities and surburban areas, no matter if the staffing is career, vollie or combo, it becomes a tougher question.

The department I recently left in Vermont had 17,000 residents and was covered by 2 volunteer departments. We bought an ex-FDNY Aerialscope in '91 and ran with it until '02. When it was replaced in '02, we went with a quint with the idea of being able to retire the 3rd pumper in the station that ran with it as it's supply piece. We designated it as a truck ... for TRUCK work only. The tank was there primarily to protect the guys in the bucket if the water supply crapped out while they got themselves out of harm's way. Sure it can handle a small fire ... but that's not what it was purchased for and always runs behind at least 1 pump and most of the time 2.
In other communties it may work out better as the attack truck suported by pumps ..it's all local.

Just my thoughts.

[Maverick9110E]

i really like the way our aerial is set up. its a 95 foot aerial platform with a 1500 gpm hale pump and a 200 gallon tank, basically its just enough to charge the masterstream so you can get it into operation quickly. and once you get it going its got one badass flow rate. it works great for a volly company.