1. #51
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    stcommodore,

    I think the "rescue at window...fire to be fought" senario was already debated at length in a previous thread I started sometime last year in a WWYD thread regarding stretching a line or using a portable ladder. As I recall there were wide ranging opinions.

    FTM-PTB

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    I'm just saying there is a reason engine's carry some ground ladders.
    Bucks County, PA.

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    haha commodore you love posting those rigs

    On a serious note, pumps on trucks, tanks on trucks, it comes down to the same thing over and over. Fred, you may not be far off in your question about throwing the 110' ladder on pumpers. Think of it this way: What's more useful when those people are hanging out the windows, a charged line or a small stick? I have seen places where engine companies= engine with a 50-75 foot stick. Truck, absolutely not, but good for those life or death pulls? Absolutely! Quints have their place, yes yes yes, but before you worry about passing the car fire (how often are their occupants still in the vehicle), worry about that family hangin out the window that can't be reached by ground ladders.

  4. #54
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    In my city we do not have the staffing...and will not get it soon.....to staff an engine and truck. Using the quint program we would have both worlds together. Even when we staff the second station we will only be able to do one unit per station. So if you go out for something....taking the Qunit will make you able to handle anything you get. You are right,....may not be an occupant trapped in car, but sure looks bad in papers when a big huge red fire truck paid for by the citizens is pictured in the paper sitting there while car burns in background because there is no water or hose on the big red truck and they are waiting for the closest engine. Yes, Fire extinguishers are carried, but they may not always be enough to extinguish that fire......
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  5. #55
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    Default my humble opinion

    Having a fire truck rigged with a large amount of water, supply and attack lines and an aerial with the full complement of ground ladders and all the equipment necessary to pull off any and all kinds of rescue and /or fire situations is akin to having Lockheed Martin redesign the C5A Galaxy to fly supersonic, be capable of dogfighting with other fighter aircrtaft and still carry a few ARFF rigs, a tank or two plus the troops.

    Can it be done (the truck, that is! )? Yes.

    Is it practical for most FD's? No.


    As far as the car burning in the photo goes... unless there is an exposure problem or people trapped, any car fire will be a total loss. Remember, kiddies, it's risk vs. benefit. Why put ourselves at risk to save a two ton hulk of burnt metal, melted plastic and broken glass?
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 03-08-2005 at 02:03 PM.
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    Yes 343, at one point there were 5 ex-FDNY Aerialscopes operating in Chittenden County plus South Burlington had a Mack CF pump that I beleive was ex-FDNY as well.

    This was probably 7-8 years ago before SBFB and Winooski replaced thier Mack Towers ... South Burlington, Winooski, Colchester Center (bought from Burlington), Williston and Milton were all running ex-FDNY scopes. Somewhere there is a picture of all of them together except for Milton's ....

    When I left the area in the fall of '02, only Milton and Williston still had therm running, and I beleive Williston was planning to replace thier's in the near future.

  7. #57
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    Default Re: my humble opinion

    Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
    Having a fire truck rigged with a large amount of water, supply and attack lines and an aerial with the full complement of ground ladders and all the equipment necessary to pull off any and all kinds of rescue and /or fire situations is akin to having Lockheed Martin redesign the C5A Galaxy to fly supersonic, be capable of dogfighting with other fighter aircrtaft and still carry a few ARFF rigs, a tank or two plus the troops.

    Can it be done (the truck, that is! )? Yes.

    Is it practical for most FD's? No.


    As far as the car burning in the photo goes... unless there is an exposure problem or people trapped, any car fire will be a total loss. Remember, kiddies, it's risk vs. benefit. Why put ourselves at risk to save a two ton hulk of burnt metal, melted plastic and broken glass?
    Giving a Truck a moderate amount of water, a useable amount of supply line and a quick attack amount of attack lines, is just like the military mounting .50 cals on the top of Supply Trucks, or mounting M2 .50 cals and gatling guns in the doors of CH-53's and CH-47 transport helicopters
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    Default Re: Re: my humble opinion

    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    Giving a Truck a moderate amount of water, a useable amount of supply line and a quick attack amount of attack lines, is just like the military mounting .50 cals on the top of Supply Trucks, or mounting M2 .50 cals and gatling guns in the doors of CH-53's and CH-47 transport helicopters
    Apples and Oranges, Bro... both grow on trees and are quite tasty, but

    A .50 cal can be mounted onto humvees and helos with a few mil spec bolts and the appropriate hardware. On the other hand, to outfit an aerial with a pump, a moderate amount of water useable attack and supply lines requires more hardware and more dinero for something that may get rarely used. To retrofit, you're taling a major redeign of an existing rig and a lot of money!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Default Re: Re: Re: my humble opinion

    Originally posted by CaptainGonzo


    Apples and Oranges, Bro... both grow on trees and are quite tasty, but

    A .50 cal can be mounted onto humvees and helos with a few mil spec bolts and the appropriate hardware. On the other hand, to outfit an aerial with a pump, a moderate amount of water useable attack and supply lines requires more hardware and more dinero for something that may get rarely used. To retrofit, you're taling a major redeign of an existing rig and a lot of money!
    The Humvee/5 ton/ and helo were all designed from the begining to handle the weapon, just as a quint ot a truck with a pump is desinged that way when they are built.
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    I guess to me it comes down to the department being willingand/or able to make the tradeoffs needed to run with a quint instead of a "pure" truck company. Obviously the biggest trade-off is the increased costs, both initial purchase and long-term maintanence, but the other major tradeoff is the overall size and deminished manuerverability. In some communties, especially surburban areas, that is not as much of an issue as the strip malls, condo complexs and garden apartments that the quints will be used at usually allow a fair amount of space for the truck to gain access and provide a fair amount of working space. In the urban areas, often the space they have to squeeze in is minimal, and the larger quint would not be able to pull it off. I know for a fact this was a problem in 2 northeastern cities near where I volunteered ... both cities had purchased dual rear axle quints and later found that the apparatus either could not make it down the streets or had to backup once or twice to make the swing.

    In a perfect world we would have everything immediattly at hand, but often compromises must be made either to satisfy the need to keep purchases within budget or to meet the geographic specifics of the community.

    Finally you do need to ask yourself, are the tradeoffs worth the chance that the truck may actually be the first on scene to a meaningful (cars, trash, brush, sheds etc etc are not meangful fires) fire during its life enough to justify those increased costs and tradeoffs. In the vast majority of the cases, I would say the answer is no, but obviously that depends on the community, and even more importantly, the makeup of the fire department.

    Just my thoughts.

  11. #61
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    For everyone who wants to see trucks with pumps and hoselines-what do your chiefs and deputys ride around in? Who is more likely to come across a car fire? I'll think a pump on a ladder truck is a good idea when I see the deputy pull up in a woods wagon.

  12. #62
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    My only real problem with quints is the wear and tear of a lot of vehicle when they are likely to run 80% of the time in this world for EMS calls.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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  13. #63
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    "Every" is an awfully big word to have so few letters.

    In my particular circumstance, a tank and pump is important for two reasons: 1) the water system sucks and a pump is often needed to boost pressure to get an adequate fire stream at elevation, and 2) we don't have enough reserve apparatus to get us through many forseeable short-term maintenance issues. A quint is at best a poor replacement for an engine, but it beats walking or calling for mutual aid from 12+ miles away.

    The added complexity and weight doesn't make much sense to me where water systems are adequate and/or run volumes are high.

    As a budget/staffing concept, quints are a cop-out.
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  14. #64
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    After 5 Pages, A lot of twists and turns. Back to the question at hand. "Should a ladder truck have a pump and tank?" And now, the moment you've all been waiting for, my answer. The Envelope, Please. (Drum Roll) And the answer is.... NO
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    As a budget/staffing concept, quints are a cop-out.
    ..this is true !!!!!! and Harve ................you are full off poop ! LOL ........ (just crackin on ya)
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    1st... If you can't put out a car fire with a Purple K or two of them you are an idiot shouldn't be a fireman. In fact Purple K to me seems almost more affective than water in some cases. Especially once liquid gasoline is involved. If the fire is that 1 in 1000 that can't be extinguished it should knock the fire down enough for the time it takes the 2nd due Engine to arrive. Based on what most of your call volumes are I'm sure it wouldn't be common for this to happen. As someone else said car/dumpster debris fires are not critical fires.

    2nd... The point of the military reference is not that a gun is designed to be part of the particular vehicle. (tank, Humvee etc.) But that it is a minor addition that really doesn't affect the engineering and fucntion of the entire piece.

    This would be similar to adding Presurrized Water Cans to a Ladder Company. A pump and tank however, does drasticly affect the design, engineering and mission of a specific piece of apparatus. This completely dupilcates the Mission and intent of the Engine Co.

    FTM-PTB

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