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  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber FireCritic's Avatar
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    Default Firehouse.com poll - Should ladder trucks be equipped with a pump and water tank?

    I did not feel this question could truly be answered as cut and dried as the poll suggests. I think that it won't hurt to have the pump and water on a ladder truck, however I do not feel that you should then take away the engine company or rely on a three person crew to grab a hydrant, pump the aerial, raise the aerial, and perform other tasks.

    Then again guess it would be better not to have it so your chief can't manipulate the system by reducing manpower , or rely on ladder trucks for engine duties.

    3 of the 5 ladder trucks in our department have a pump and water.

    75' stick Quint with 1500 gpm pump 300 gal tank
    75' stick Quint with 1500 gpm pump 300 gal tank
    121' straight stick w/o pump & water
    100' straight stick w/o pump & water
    95' platform w/ 1500 gpm pump & 300 gal tank


    The way we operate we don't need the pump and tank, however there have been times when it has come in handy.


    What do you all think?


  2. #2
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    UMMMMMM,

    Quint YES


    Regular Aerial Ladder Truck NO!
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  3. #3
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    It all depends on the situation your in...in many volly cases I believe it to be a important tool but in others just a waste of important truck space. Still just like anything else it depends on how you use it, you can have the greatest tool in the world but without the skill its no good.
    Bucks County, PA.

  4. #4
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    100% depends on situation. Just different tools in a toolbox, depends on how many other tools you have like it and what your working on.

    Memphis has 3 platforms with pumps. The balance of 16 rearmounts, 7 Tillers, and 1 Bronto do not have pumps. Additionally, one 55' snorkel used as a rescue company does not have a pump.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 03-06-2005 at 02:23 PM.
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  5. #5
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Oh Boy....

    I probably shouldnt but get into this again but...Ladder trucks should at least have pumps/tanks. A true quint with supply hose, perhaps not. A truck without a pump/tank makes no sense to me.

    All due respect to my "straight truck" Brothers, I dont buy the arguments about loss of ground ladders, loss of equipment and crews cant be cross trained.

    We have a quint. Every department but one in my area runs quints. The one that doesnt is a special exception, as they both carry loads of high angle and technical rescue gear and needed the extra space.

    Now, does that mean these trucks are laying LDH on every fire? No. Does it mean were pulling attack lines off at every fire? No. Do the truck crews do truck work at most fires? Yes. Do they do it well? YES.

    Also...Do our quints carry the same amount of ground ladders as a straight truck? No. Have we always had plenty of ground ladders on scene? Yes. I always get a kick out of that one. Its almost like ALL the ground ladders have to be on the truck. Funny, but every engine Ive seen has ladders as well. On our scenes, between the quint and 3 engines, we have 263' of ground ladders.

    Of course, I always here you cant get all the equipment on a quint. BS...I will put our quints list of equipment up against any other.

    And last but not least, I hear you cant have a crew be capable of both truck and engine work. Again, BS. It all comes down to training.

    Thats my $.02. Am crawling under the desk to hide now
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  6. #6
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    Ok so rationalize why FDNY 10 truck should have attack lines, supply hose, etc or why in my department our new ladder should be a quint when there are three engines in our department and at least three other stations that would bring an engine on any working job.

    I see it as an advantage to that random chance the ladder gets to a worker first and for defensive op's so you don't need another engine, but isn't an engines job to supply water in all cases?
    Bucks County, PA.

  7. #7
    Forum Member BFDNJFF's Avatar
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    Default

    i would have to agree with CaptOldTimer here , a quint yes

    but an actual real ladder truck NO WAY ,

    but i guess that can also depend on demographics of an area and cost effectiveness for the city .

  8. #8
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Question:

    Ok so rationalize why FDNY 10 truck should have attack lines, supply hose, etc
    Answer:

    I see it as an advantage to that random chance the ladder gets to a worker first and for defensive op's so you don't need another engine


    Let me clarify, it doesnt have to be a 1500gpm pump with 500 of water (like ours). Something small, like a 400 gpm pump and a 250 tank with two 1 3/4" lines like our old mini-pumper had would be fine. Or even better, a CAFS set up. Just something to be able to fight fire with if you had to. Thats all

    And as I said before, the supply line (ie quint) is another matter. I dont think our truck should have it.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 03-06-2005 at 02:37 PM.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  9. #9
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    I figure if your going to do something like a quint, do it right. Be able to be a solid engine or truck depending.

    One of the best set up quint's I've seen: http://www.penndelfire.com/apparatus.asp?aid=l8
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    Bucks County, PA.

  10. #10
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    p2
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    Bucks County, PA.

  11. #11
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Agree. If your going to do it, do it right. I just think there are places where a traditional quint may not work so well. But I still think you shoud have the ability to at least pull a line if you need. Heck, I feel the same way about heavy rescues. I have seen ambulances with CAFS. Im sure you can find room on a truck or rescue for the same.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
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    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  12. #12
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    I'll answer using trucks I know...This rescue rusns alot of limited acess roads and having a pump is a must for the local they have but the second truck is set up for the work they run and they have engines when they need water, not the rescue.
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    Bucks County, PA.

  13. #13
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    r29
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    Bucks County, PA.

  14. #14
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    Commodore,

    Thats great. You love all of your own equipment. Do you have any other equipment you can pat yourself on the back about?

    I do agree with your statement however. Most people rationalize a quint to be a pumper and a truck. Its not. Most times it will have to operate as one or the other.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 03-06-2005 at 03:29 PM.
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  15. #15
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    neither are my company...I just know a few local trucks and can use them as examples whats wrong with that?
    Bucks County, PA.

  16. #16
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    I think it totally depends on your run area. We are a small town with the usual ordinary constructed, close together business district. One of our worst-case scenarios is a serious fire in one or more of these buildings where a whole block would be in danger. We wanted a pump on our truck because our 2 engines would be tasked to different things and the next mutual aid engine is at least 15 minutes away. At the same time I understand that other departments do not want a pump on their truck because they know another engine is coming. Everything needs to be set up for what works best in your area.

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber jfTL41's Avatar
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    Default

    I guess the angle of departure never came up with the pierce guys that sold them the rigs.

  18. #18
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    My apologies. It appeared as if you were another 'my way is the best way' guys and un-open to ideas. Thats a big part of what is wrong with the fire service in general, and I am just having a bad day at the station.....bored.

    Those apparatus are set up nicely. They are very pretty, but like I said in earlier post, every situation is different. It would be cost prohibitive for us to equip 27 trucks with pumps when they are surrounded by 56 engines.
    Last edited by MemphisE34a; 03-06-2005 at 03:43 PM.
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber jfTL41's Avatar
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    Not when they come for your jobs and give the city managers the Quints are great talk.

  20. #20
    Forum Member MemphisE34a's Avatar
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    --------------------------------------------------------
    quote by jfTL41

    Not when they come for your jobs and give the city managers the Quints are great talk.
    ---------------------------------------------------------

    What????
    Robert Kramer
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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