1. #1
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    Default Automatic Transmission Mini-Pumpers

    I have seen a few "automatic transmission" F-450/550 minipumpers with automatic transmissions and a fire pump installation. These can varying from 500-1000 gpm in the configurations that I have seen.

    Can anyone supply any feedback on what is happening with these after being in service for a while? It is understood that this is a very odd configuration and there are issues with Ford on this not being an standard installation. It seems as though there are a few KME's out there like that and I also saw a Saulsbury unit with the same. hopefully some of you could share your experiences and if you did something special to do so. The one unit is here on firehouse for pine level fire department and I think I saw the unit in another thread once. It was a very high looking KME mini pumper and am also interested in how these are doing with the 300 gallon tanks, keeping weight in control.

    Anything that you could share from an experience would be enlightening for me to learn about personally.

    Have fun and stay safe.

    Guy

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    Default

    Unless things have changed with the ford tranny, you can't get an auto with the 4x4 due to pto clearance problems. both our dept and a neighboring dept went thru that when specing a mini on the F550 chassis. We carry 300gal on a 2dr chassis and it's pretty much maxed out. Probably will go with a medium duty chassis next go round. The Pine Level rig is pretty sharp, but I think that one had a manual tranny...I'll have to dig the pics out from FRI and double check.

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    I can tell you that there were only a few places that submitted a bid for our's when be got it about 1.5 years ago. Many manufacturers said it could not be done. It did take longer for us to get ours because it was the first one done by the manufacturer with the 2003 F-550 chassis (after engine and tranny changes from the 2002 model year). It took longer because the manufacturer had to figure out how to get the tranny to lock in order for it to pump.

    Ours will pump 500+ GPM, and has a 300 gallon tank on the 4-door 4x2 chassis. It is just under it GVW with all equipment and personnle......
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    Default I know it has been done

    I realize there have been significant issues with clearances for these installations, but it has been done on two units that I know of. One is the Pine Level unit and one is in Knoxville PA. I know nothing about what is happening to them, once they are out there? Also, the manufacturers that will fo it, sound as though they now want a significant premium to do so, as they had such significant issues and secondly, as they know they kind of have a lock on something no one else wants to tackle.

    I guess the question is two fold. One, are the ones out there holding up? Two, is there anyone finding it to still be available from a manufacturer and what is the deal if they do? It would be nice to get it, but at what price for the initial investment and also, what will it cost later if there are service issues?

    Thanks for your input, I sincerely appreciate it and look forward to more insight from those who posts. It is certainly educational.

    Have fun and stay safe!

    Guy

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    I believe the Pine Level was a manual tranny....... I will look again on the KME site, but I believe it was a stick.......

    I can't answer a whole lot of questions............. but I can almost guarantee if you did a search on here you will find some info to help you........
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    Default Ford Super Duty A/T modifications for fire pump

    Guy:

    The last conversations I had with Ford about this issue revolved around warranty and denial of warranty. Ford stated that unless Ford Truck Division, Engineering Section, gave permission to modify the transmission for this type of service, it would not be warrantied if problems ever occurred. Only Ford certified builders are permitted to modify the transmission to lockup in pump for this function. Added cooling was required in the form of a heavy duty, fan cooled oil-to-air cooler usually mounted under the chassis in the frame rail area.

    At the time of my discussions, KME was a Ford authorized builder for this function.

    Sorry, I do not have info on longevity of the transmission in this type of service.

    REspectfully submitted,

    Tony

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    Unhappy Addendum

    Guy:

    I forgot to mention that the modifications for lockup were only for the F series Super Duty for the midship pump, driveline driven option. The PTO option only handles up to 350 GPM, if I recall correctly.

    You probably already knew that.

    Tony

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    Default

    Not exactly sure how they did it, but Alexis has built an F-550 2-door, 4wd, auto trans equipped unit with a 1000gpm rear mount pump.

    I do know that they needed to do some tweaking to the electronics to get the tranny to lock up in the appropriate gear, and I believe that Alexis is providing the warranty for the tranny should it grenade, but I'm not positive. This unit was at FDIC last year, and they were proud of the fact that the unit pumped as rated.

    Alexis 1000gpm Mini

    We've bought their product for many years (however our last was not), and one thing I will say is that they stand behind their product. We've never had an issue with anything they've built not being repaired in a rapid and efficient manner. I suspect they wouldn't let something out of the shop without being certain it would perform appropriately.

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    Default Is there a warranty?

    I have dug and dug here without much luck. I keep getting the run around about warranty. It is apparently "something: that can be done" with a big "BUT"! The "but" keeps defaulting back to warranty not being covered by Ford, regardless if the manufacturer is a QVM installer. Hoping someone is out there that knows, as I cannot assume a warranty after getting one of these. With the varied drivers using this thing, the automatic is very important.

    Is the body manufacturer assuming the warranty IPO of Ford? Why is it that Ford would not investigate further? What is whizzy about the lockup of the tranny and what cooling is required by Ford verses some damn guys "feelings" to do nothing more than CYA? I must believe that there are more applications for this other than a mini pumper fire truck. The real problem lies in that the average layman cannot seem to get to the "Ford Engineering Group" for a from the horses mouth answer. It truly seems as though us fire truck buyers are a minority that gets very little grease for a squeeky wheel, as I guess there are so few bought from Ford. All I hear is sales guys, and third hand information. Any suggestions on who, how, what and method of getting real answers? Even talking with body manufacturers, they all seem to fall into this "gray area" and all dance around the real issue of warranty and "it really is not approved". KME seems to be the only company out of 10 I have contacted that will do this. Well that tells me that there is something wrong here.....?????

    Any further insight would be awesome.

    Thanks and stay safe out there.

    GUY

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    Default Re: Is there a warranty?

    Originally posted by FYRTRUCKGUY2
    I have dug and dug here without much luck. I keep getting the run around about warranty. It is apparently "something: that can be done" with a big "BUT"! The "but" keeps defaulting back to warranty not being covered by Ford, regardless if the manufacturer is a QVM installer. Hoping someone is out there that knows, as I cannot assume a warranty after getting one of these. With the varied drivers using this thing, the automatic is very important.

    Is the body manufacturer assuming the warranty IPO of Ford? Why is it that Ford would not investigate further? What is whizzy about the lockup of the tranny and what cooling is required by Ford verses some damn guys "feelings" to do nothing more than CYA? I must believe that there are more applications for this other than a mini pumper fire truck. The real problem lies in that the average layman cannot seem to get to the "Ford Engineering Group" for a from the horses mouth answer. It truly seems as though us fire truck buyers are a minority that gets very little grease for a squeeky wheel, as I guess there are so few bought from Ford. All I hear is sales guys, and third hand information. Any suggestions on who, how, what and method of getting real answers? Even talking with body manufacturers, they all seem to fall into this "gray area" and all dance around the real issue of warranty and "it really is not approved". KME seems to be the only company out of 10 I have contacted that will do this. Well that tells me that there is something wrong here.....?????

    Any further insight would be awesome.

    Thanks and stay safe out there.

    GUY
    KME (Kovatch) is also a Ford dealer, so they will honor the warranty. I believe that is why they will do it but nobody else will.

    If I were you, I would seriously look at a different chassis due to the weight. The F-550 we had was maxed out on it's weight. We even had to add to the springs to the suspension because it was already on the helper springs. Take a look at the GMC 5500 chassis. We replaced ours F-550 with one of these and it is great. It has more room, turns much much much better and has a higher GVW than the Ford F550. And to top it all off, it is roughly the same price as the F550. I think it is a much better truck!!

    Here is a pic of ours.......

    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    We were told that the GM 5500 4X4 is not offered with the lock up trans.Has anyone seen or heard of a GM 5500 4X4 with the auto trans and 1000gpm or larger midship pump?

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    Default So its a KME Transmission Warranty?

    While KME might be a Ford Dealer, they are now warranting transmissions. I spoke to Ford and they say they will not warrant the application. I thought maybe there was something magical about what KME was doing, but now I am hedging that they are assumig the warranty on the transmission. If it blows Ford tells you to go to pound salt? What if the transmission tranits issues into the engine, is the body builder going to warranty the engine too? I am truly curious from those that have them, if the installation is certified and Ford is awarer what is happening and if they are going to stnd behond it from the chassis manufacturers stand point, as it is becoming more and more apparent that KME is possibly hiding behind the fact that they are not owning the warranty, not Ford. That scares the hell out of a guy who doesn;t like finger pointing!

    I agree with fireresq...the bigger axles make sense, but it is alos a bit more "sizey" than I desired to end up with. It certainly makes sense from a loading standpoint though. Thanks.

    If there is any more insight out there, it would be appreciated.

    Stay safe and have fun!

    GUY

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    Default Re: So its a KME Transmission Warranty?

    Originally posted by FYRTRUCKGUY2
    I agree with fireresq...the bigger axles make sense, but it is alos a bit more "sizey" than I desired to end up with. It certainly makes sense from a loading standpoint though. Thanks.

    It is a little taller than the Ford, but this truck is actually shorter than our Ford was (with the exception of the extended bumper)......
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    Originally posted by bendone
    We were told that the GM 5500 4X4 is not offered with the lock up trans.Has anyone seen or heard of a GM 5500 4X4 with the auto trans and 1000gpm or larger midship pump?
    Not sure on that....... Steve Dragon would be able to tell you....... Ours is a Hale 500 gpm pump with pump and roll capabilities......
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    Default

    http://fire.kovatch.com/Default.aspx...D=411&tabid=40

    Here is one like you want, but only with a 500gpm pump. I think you will have a hard time finding a mini-pumper with a 1000gpm pump.I realy dont know why you would want a pump that big on a mini-pumper.

    Thoes GM 5500 mini-pumpers seem really big for being "mini" pumpers.

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    The 5500s are alot better truck than a 550, I personally own both in 4x4.

    The 5500 turns tighter, has better visibility and has been ALOT more reliable than the 550.

    The 550 is a built up 1 ton
    the 5500 is downsized medium duty

    The 5500 4x4 comes in 19,500 GVW 550 is only 17,500.

    I don't have a PTO driven pump on my 550. But it is running the a Allison 1000RDS which should allow a pump.

    I have an engine mounted hydraulic pump that runs a snow plow, salt spreader, dump bed and generator.

    I have been really pleased with it.

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    Default Ford f550

    We just had delivered a 2005 Ford F550 with a 19,000 GVW. Ford did bump up the weight with the 2005. Our mini also has a 750 gpm pump.
    Click on the link to view it.

    http://www.mcfw.com/main/images/june/336.htm

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    To answer some questions about why we would need a high volume pump on a mini...we cover an area that includes two bridges that cannot be driven over in a vehicle that is more than 7 tons...so a mini with a 1250 pump (like the one we hope to get through grants) is just the ticket. All we ask this piece to do is hold the fire until we can drive around the bridges with the heavier units. Another advantage to having a mini with a large pump capacity is if we are ordered to do a fill site for tanker shuttle we don't have to park our big red tool box on a dry hydrant 3 or 4 miles away from the scene.
    This we do so others may live

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    As the power of the pen provides anyone with the ability to express themselves, their opinions or their bologna, I think that FYRTRUCKGUY2 should identify himself as the apparatus salesman, or engineer that he calls himself, that he is...honesty is a good thing Mr. S.

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    With 300+ HP engines available now and the small size pumps that you can get, it is possible to put 1000 on a mini...though I agree you would need some sort of reason to do it...

    Birken

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    Question any new opinions?

    We just found out that we have been awarded a FIRE act grant to get our new truck. The truck that we spec'd out originally now seems to have a higher price tag than we originally thought.
    The question I have is this...does anyone know of somebody that can make a 1000gpm REAR MOUNT mini-pumper that is under 26' long? We prefer an automatic transmission, but I'm sure would bend on that depending on price tag.
    I know Alexis can do it but we'd like to get more quotes than just them. I know a lot of questions have been asked about a mini-pumper with 1000gpm pump. We need such a beast for the same reason as above. Some of the bridges in our area can't handle our bigger trucks (especially come winter and flood season) so if we can get their quicker for initial attack we're that much further ahead of the fire.
    We will also be using the truck for our first responder unit so size becomes an issue there too. Right now we're running our first responder calls from our 1994 E-One rescue pumper. If we can keep the 1000gpm rating, we can also sell our 1978 engine which will help with our ISO rating.
    As you can tell, we have a lot of requirements on the new truck so any direction towards the right manufacturer will be a HUGE help!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DellroyVFD08
    We just found out that we have been awarded a FIRE act grant to get our new truck. The truck that we spec'd out originally now seems to have a higher price tag than we originally thought.
    The question I have is this...does anyone know of somebody that can make a 1000gpm REAR MOUNT mini-pumper that is under 26' long? We prefer an automatic transmission, but I'm sure would bend on that depending on price tag.
    I know Alexis can do it but we'd like to get more quotes than just them. I know a lot of questions have been asked about a mini-pumper with 1000gpm pump. We need such a beast for the same reason as above. Some of the bridges in our area can't handle our bigger trucks (especially come winter and flood season) so if we can get their quicker for initial attack we're that much further ahead of the fire.
    We will also be using the truck for our first responder unit so size becomes an issue there too. Right now we're running our first responder calls from our 1994 E-One rescue pumper. If we can keep the 1000gpm rating, we can also sell our 1978 engine which will help with our ISO rating.
    As you can tell, we have a lot of requirements on the new truck so any direction towards the right manufacturer will be a HUGE help!
    I believe it should be possible, but you really need to look at a medium duty chassis..... I believe KME has made some with 750 pumps on the F-550 chassis, but I believe they are manual trannys....... I would look at a GMC5500 or Ford 650 or higher chassis........ We have the GMC 5500 and like it 10 times better than the Ford........ Much more maneuverable (sp?)...
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    Cool gmc 5500

    Firenresq77...did you buy your GMC new? If so, where did you get it? That might be worth looking at. I've heard some pretty bad things about the ford diesel as well...just little bugs that needed to be worked out that I'm sure might have been by now, but I've not heard much bad at all with the GMC / Chevy.

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    The GMC will have two big advantages over the Ford - weight capacity and turning radius. For those in the know, how does the pricing of the GMC 5500 compare to that of the F-550?

    Something else to consider is Rosenbauer due to their PTO line of pumps that run up to 1000gpm. Perhaps they have an application where they can put that pump on the new GMC or the Ford's, I don't know. It can't hurt to ask. Pardon my ignorance, but do these mini units use a PTO pump?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DellroyVFD08
    Firenresq77...did you buy your GMC new? If so, where did you get it? That might be worth looking at. I've heard some pretty bad things about the ford diesel as well...just little bugs that needed to be worked out that I'm sure might have been by now, but I've not heard much bad at all with the GMC / Chevy.
    We got ours through KME......

    The GMC will have two big advantages over the Ford - weight capacity and turning radius. For those in the know, how does the pricing of the GMC 5500 compare to that of the F-550?
    The price is very comparable to the F-550, at least it was when we were doing the specs for ours. I want to say they were the same price or a little more. I believe it was around $40-45,000.

    Look for dragonfyre on here. He sells the GMC's and can get you a price quote........

    And FWIW, our GMC can turn circles around the Ford we had and has a GVW of 26,000 (the Ford was 19,000.......
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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