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    Default Speaking of entitlements...More whining for FDNY to beg minorities to apply.....

    Pressure on FDNY Over Minority Hiring



    Updated: 03-08-2005 10:01:12 AM
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    JOE TORRES
    Courtesy of WABC 7


    (New York -WABC, March 7, 2005) -- There are new questions about minority hiring at the FDNY. The U.S. Justice Department is already investigating why only three percent of firefighters are African Amercian. Now some members of the city council are now pushing for an ordinance that would pressure the fire department to increase the number of minority firefighters.

    This is about discrimination and a lack of recruitment effort by the Bloomberg Administration. Those charges, those accusations are coming not only from the current crop of black firefighters here in the city but also from the chairwoman of the city's Fire and Criminal Justice Committee.

    Michael Bloomberg, (R) New York City Mayor: "I see a more diverse class representing the FDNY's next generation of leaders."

    There are many who sharply disagree with the mayor's diversity assessment, and they point to today's graduating class of probationary firefighters as a prime example. Of the 143 grads, only two are black.

    Paul Washington, Vulcan Society: "Eight percent of those who took the test for the fire department were black. We're coming on the job, as you can see today by these pathetic numbers, at one or two percent."

    Nicholas Scoppetta, NYC Fire Commissioner: "We've tripled the number of minorities coming on the fire department during our time in office as compared to the prior ten years before we got into office. So we're making significant progress."

    The progress isn't fast enough for Yvette Clark. The councilwoman says the Giuliani Administration had a very effective cadet program that greatly diversified the FDNY. So on Wednesday, she'll introduce legislation to bring it back.

    Yvette Clarke, (D) NYC Council Member: "What it does is it brings a lot more exposure to communities of color, to women, on college campuses.. To the real deal of what being an FDNY employee is all about."

    The councilwoman's legislation comes on the heels of a U.S. Department of Justice investigation into the FDNY's hiring practices, an investigation focusing on whether the department discriminates against blacks and Hispanics, particularly on the exam given to recruits.

    Scoppetta: "it is not a question of a discriminatory process by any means. It is a straight civil service process, job related exam.."

    Speaking of the test, the commissioner pointed out that in just about every racial category: Black , white , Latino, Asian, the percentage of applicants is nearly identical to the percentage of people who pass the test - thereby supporting his contention that it's not discriminatory.

    We thought we'd get ahold of the justice department to see what they think of the racial makeup of the latest graduating class. We got hold of them, but they had no comment.
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    How is a cadet program aimed at increasing recruitment and expanding visability an entitlement? No where in there does anyone speak of creating quotas or lowering standards, they seem to only want to revive a particular recruiting tool that they feel would be effective.
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    The FDNY has been under the microcsope for a while now because they don't go out and look for minorities to hire. Last I checked, they didn't go out and look for White Males to hire either. They post the test dates, you come take the test, pass and get hired. I don't see how that is unfair if minorities either A) cannot pass the exam B) do not show up to test C) do not apply or D) Do not pass background checks.

    A Cadet program is great, I have no beef with that. I have beef with "activists" whining that a department doesnt do enough to recruit minorities. Like they are supposed to go to Minority areas of cities with a bus and pull people into testing places....
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    Originally posted by TillerMan25
    The FDNY has been under the microcsope for a while now because they don't go out and look for minorities to hire. Last I checked, they didn't go out and look for White Males to hire either. They post the test dates, you come take the test, pass and get hired. I don't see how that is unfair if minorities either A) cannot pass the exam B) do not show up to test C) do not apply or D) Do not pass background checks.

    A Cadet program is great, I have no beef with that. I have beef with "activists" whining that a department doesnt do enough to recruit minorities. Like they are supposed to go to Minority areas of cities with a bus and pull people into testing places....
    White males don't need to be recruited, they were the only ones allowed in for so long that they naturally recruit themselves.

    A) and D) no one is asking to be touched. But B) and C) can easily be addressed with a cadet program and it is not unfair to do so to anyone.
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    Ok, I will buy that Dennis. As long as the Cadet program does not specifically target minority participants and all persons requesting to be part of the program are given a fair shot, regardless of race. Why is it necessary to help only minorities get jobs?

    Damn, no one helped me get my job...I would much rather work with people I know worked as hard as I did to get my job than someone who had help along the way because their ancestors may have been "disenfranchised." I would much rather work with the guy who had a clean background than work with the guy who had a theft or drug conviction on his record, but got the job because of "White Liberal Guilt."

    You get my drift here? I worked hard to get my job by keeping my nose clean and studying and doing well on exams...and I expect the same of my co-workers.
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    TillerMan..........I commend you for having the balls to call a spade a spade. We all know damn well why this is even a news story and where it is going. I think Dennis is just playing devils advocate with you.

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    Originally posted by TillerMan25
    Ok, I will buy that Dennis. As long as the Cadet program does not specifically target minority participants and all persons requesting to be part of the program are given a fair shot, regardless of race. Why is it necessary to help only minorities get jobs?

    Damn, no one helped me get my job...I would much rather work with people I know worked as hard as I did to get my job than someone who had help along the way because their ancestors may have been "disenfranchised." I would much rather work with the guy who had a clean background than work with the guy who had a theft or drug conviction on his record, but got the job because of "White Liberal Guilt."

    You get my drift here? I worked hard to get my job by keeping my nose clean and studying and doing well on exams...and I expect the same of my co-workers.
    I don't want tjust the folks that have wanted any of my jobs from childhood, they are all pretty cool and many want them. i want the folks that will be good at the job, sometimes you need to search them out. Desire is good, but it is not the end all be all to this job or any other. Getting outsiders in at the ground floor of a job they are good at but had not thought about is going to bring different perspectives to the job/department/career. You and I have been thinking about the job since we saw Roy and Johnney riding around in their converted pick up truck, from the first day as a recruit we brought a perspective of an insider from all the books that we had read and TV shows we had watched. There are things that maybe we should question that we do, but that are so ingrained that we don't even think that there might be an alternative too. Get a guy that joins after not thinking about it for the first 18 years of his/her life and we are going to get a great new view of things that we can change to improve the service.

    Now I don't think that the cadet program was ever aimed at a racial group, rather it was aimed at a socio-economic and geographical group that happens to be mostly minority. They won't be able to keep any white guys out.

    No one helped you directly get the job, but no one had held your demographic group back from getting the job for 150 years either. Few white kids think of trying to be NBA stars the way they might have 20 years ago because not to many white guys are on the court any more, and that is just for 20 years, but we can still look back to Larry Byrd and others for inspiration. Think of the black kid who has only white guys in the firehouse in his neighbor, why would he see that as an oppertunity for him? He looks back 150 years and still all that he sees is white guys riding the tailboard of the BRT. That is where you and I had an advantage in this job, we saw the oppertunity was available because that looked ] people like us were in the job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
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    Originally posted by RESERVE172
    TillerMan..........I commend you for having the balls to call a spade a spade. We all know damn well why this is even a news story and where it is going. I think Dennis is just playing devils advocate with you.
    Nope, I honestly see the cadet program with the aim of diversification without lowering standards or forceing quotas as a very good thing.
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    [QUOTE]but got the job because of white liberal guilt ....TillerMan25

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by RESERVE172
    but got the job because of white liberal guilt ....TillerMan25
    Where does anything of that sort come into play here. It is not guilt, it is doing the right thing that will in the long run to benefit everyone.
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    It sounded like you may be an example of TillerMan25's reference to white liberal guilt when you talked about all a black kid sees for a 150 years is a white guy riding the tailboard of the BRT.

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    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    Few white kids think of trying to be NBA stars the way they might have 20 years ago because not to many white guys are on the court any more, and that is just for 20 years, but we can still look back to Larry Byrd and others for inspiration. Think of the black kid who has only white guys in the firehouse in his neighbor, why would he see that as an oppertunity for him? He looks back 150 years and still all that he sees is white guys riding the tailboard of the BRT. That is where you and I had an advantage in this job, we saw the oppertunity was available because that looked ] people like us were in the job.
    you know dennis, your right. I'm going to file a complaint with the justice department, as well as sue the NBA for discrimination, because there aren't enough white people. and I wasn't hired for a pro team, nor was I even asked to apply, because I am white. I look at the NBA and I see Shaq, Kobe Bryan, Michael Jordan, and even from my alumni, Carmelo Anthony. All black. the NBA doesn't actively recruit white plays, and as a result, the majority of the players (or at least the majority of the stars) are all african americans.

    btw, I never wanted had a dream to be a NBA player. I didn't think it was for me. the NBA should be actively recruiting white people for their company, and spending millions on educating us white males that there are places for us on the court.

    is what I just said extreamly stupid? absolutely. but it's exactly that kind of thinking that is causing these problems for FDNY.
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    Originally posted by RESERVE172
    It sounded like you may be an example of TillerMan25's reference to white liberal guilt when you talked about all a black kid sees for a 150 years is a white guy riding the tailboard of the BRT.
    not guilt, reality
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
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    just to chime in here, but at my dept they lowered the standards for the physical agility test to get more women and minorities to pass. that lead to most of thr minorities being ****ed because they thought they were being seen as a lower standard themselves.

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    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    Nope, I honestly see the cadet program with the aim of diversification without lowering standards or forceing quotas as a very good thing.
    And I will agree that it is a very good thing to fund a campaign to try and publically notify ALL possible candidates and not just a certain group or as you put it "a socio-economic or geographical group that happens to be mostly minority". Once tax dollars are used to benefit one particular group over another, I believe we call that discrimination.

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    Originally posted by DrParasite
    you know dennis, your right. I'm going to file a complaint with the justice department, as well as sue the NBA for discrimination, because there aren't enough white people. and I wasn't hired for a pro team, nor was I even asked to apply, because I am white. I look at the NBA and I see Shaq, Kobe Bryan, Michael Jordan, and even from my alumni, Carmelo Anthony. All black. the NBA doesn't actively recruit white plays, and as a result, the majority of the players (or at least the majority of the stars) are all african americans.

    btw, I never wanted had a dream to be a NBA player. I didn't think it was for me. the NBA should be actively recruiting white people for their company, and spending millions on educating us white males that there are places for us on the court.

    is what I just said extreamly stupid? absolutely. but it's exactly that kind of thinking that is causing these problems for FDNY.
    Nothing like that is happening in the FDNY. No one is sueing, or atleast not getting anywhere, with arguements infavor of quotas or lowered standards. People are just pointing out that targeted recruiting is needed to help with getting the numbers to reflect society. Anyone that has ever taken Stats 101 knows that in an environment where everyone starts on equal footing that the population of any sub group will closely reflect the population of the large group. FDNY does not reflect the city it serves, and this is due to historical hiring. Some folks are just asking for acknowledgement of the discrepancy, which has been acknowledged, and for a cadet program that they feel will help out to be restarted. This will not lower standards and it will not create a quota, it will just help find good and eligible guys, and maybe girls, that might not otherwise consider the job.
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    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    Nope, I honestly see the cadet program with the aim of diversification without lowering standards or forceing quotas as a very good thing.
    You need to come on up and see just how well some of these cadet programs work. I'm sure that they may work under some environments, but it has been a complete disaster in my department; we have run a cadet program since about 1997.
    It has done a great job of keeping the department in the news. Take a guess on the quality of the publicity.

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    STRIKE A SECOND ALARM, we got a hot one here!!!..........BTW,I think DrParasite's analogy is hilarious but true. LOL

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    STRIKE A SECOND ALARM, we got a hot one here!!!..........BTW,I think DrParasite's analogy is hilarious but true. LOL
    It's not true, at all. Most white guys don't play basketball because they suck at it and are not competitive. Blacks are kept out of the FDNY because of racism. Pretty simple, actually.

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    Qualifications to be a firefighter:

    Pass the written entrance exam to prove one's general knowledge, reading comprehension and spatial relationship skills.

    Pass the Candidates Physical Agility Test to measure strength and agility in the tasks that one would perform on the fireground.

    Pass the local community's medical examination.
    Pass the local community's psychological examination.

    Qualifications to play in the NBA:

    Athletic skills.
    Being able to jump, get hang time and slam dunk.
    Being tall.
    Ability to trash talk.
    An ego the size of Texas.
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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman
    Blah..blah ...blah... Blacks are kept out of the FDNY because of racism. Pretty simple, actually.
    TAKE THE TEST PASS THE TEST GET THE JOB....racism????????
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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman

    It's not true, at all. Most white guys don't play basketball because they suck at it and are not competitive. Blacks are kept out of the FDNY because of racism. Pretty simple, actually.
    Looking through your fire department's website, I noticed a lack of African American firefighters on your Department, Robert. Why? Is it racism or a lack of enthusiam for the Jefferson City FD among the minority community ?

    FYI: we have two firefighters of African American descent (one of them a son of a retired Framingham jake, his other son is now on "da job" in Framingham) presently on the roster. One black firefighter took a leave of absence in the mid 1990's, started a business and never returned. We also have two female firefighters, both dauhghters of firefighters presently serving in the MFD.
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 03-08-2005 at 03:50 PM.
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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman

    It's not true, at all. Most white guys don't play basketball because they suck at it and are not competitive. Blacks are kept out of the FDNY because of racism. Pretty simple, actually.
    This has the potential of opening up a big can of worms. I don't suppose you have any proof that the FDNY is racist in their hiring process?
    I have no knowledge of the NBA using racism, but it exists in the NFL. Many equally talented white athletes are over looked each year simply because they are white.

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    Originally posted by ThNozzleman

    It's not true, at all. Most white guys don't play basketball because they suck at it and are not competitive. Blacks are kept out of the FDNY because of racism. Pretty simple, actually.
    It is not the racism of today, it is the effects of racism of the past.

    They don't keep folks out because of their race, that is obvious if you look at the enterance requirement for FDNY. But the past has created a pool of white guys chomping at the bit to give it a try, but blocked blacks for so long that the pool of young black kids does not exist. Targeted recruitment now is not exclusionary, because targeted recruitment in the other direction was exclusive for 100 years in the past.
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    Originally posted by jasper45

    This has the potential of opening up a big can of worms. I don't suppose you have any proof that the FDNY is racist in their hiring process?
    I have no knowledge of the NBA using racism, but it exists in the NFL. Many equally talented white athletes are over looked each year simply because they are white.
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