Thread: High-Rise Packs

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    Default High-Rise Packs

    I am wondering what your Departments are using for your high-rise packs. Ours uses 150 ft. of 1 3/4" with fixed gallon fog nozzles. From most of the research I have done on the subject, this is a less than ideal set up.
    I have made suggestions that we try switching to 150 ft. of 2 1/2" with a smooth bore nozzle. What may come out of this is that we put a Sabrejet nozzle in place of the fogs and leave the 1 3/4" hose. This will reduce the pressures required at the tip, but arent these nozzles still likley to clog? We also wont be putting out the gallonage to overwhelm the fire.
    Not many others seem to be on board with a switch. The main reason is that, SURPRISE we are an understaffed career dept. and it is not believed by most that we have enough staff to handle the 2 1/2" line. Can two FF handle the big line??
    Our initial response is minimum of 7 max of 9 persons. With the all call if needed.

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    Do a search of the forums for posts on high rise's by users named FFFred and E40L35. They have probably been to more and dealt with more high rise fires than anyone on these forums. The threads they have posted on this subject have what they do and why.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Thank You. I did search the topic and I also know what the FDNY uses. They have more guys on their inital response than we have on our whole department. I guess I am seeking out your opinions on if a well trained, minimum staffed initial response dept is capable of deploying and handeling the 2 1/2" line.
    This is the biggest reason I have heard for not switching. We do not carry any 2 1/2" hose or I would find out for myself.
    A comment that was made is "if we cannot put it out with the 1 3/4" we will probably be backing out." and what, let the building burn?
    How many FF to manage the big line??

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    Wow ewelk33, you've never handled a 2 1/2" line? Anyway, luckily we haven't had to grab the big water for anything in my town since I've been on. But back in academy one night they put teams of 4 on the 2 1/2" line smooth bore and let us handle that. I forgot how much PSI they wre pumping out, and since we were all probies it was a handful. I would say minimum 3 strong men to handle a fully charged 2 1/2" but you really want 4.

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    Piscataway Fire Dist #2
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    Thank You. I did search the topic and I also know what the FDNY uses. They have more guys on their inital response than we have on our whole department. I guess I am seeking out your opinions on if a well trained, minimum staffed initial response dept is capable of deploying and handeling the 2 1/2" line.
    I've said this many times but it bares repeating...

    While the FDNY might send more men on the 1st alarm than you have altogether...that only affects howmany operations and tactics we can perform in a set amount of time. Each task when looked at seperately only involves a small amount of manpower. A door is still forced by two men, the roofman still gets the bulkhead..etc. Anyhow on to your question.

    To move any hoseline off of a standpipe...you need at least 4 men.
    -Control man
    -Door Man
    -Backup man
    -Nozzle man

    (an officer would be nice too.)

    A control man to control the water flow from the standpipe. A door man to feed hose from the stair if necessary or the door of the appartment. A backup man to back up the nozzle man, and of course a nozzle man.

    That is the bare minimum.

    I'm assuming you can muster at least 4 men. And by placing a 1 1/8th tip on the nozzle the reaction force will be reduced and you should be able to easily handle a 2 1/2 handline flowing about 250-265 gpm.

    FTM-PTB

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    FFred I agree,when I was in the Engine I often found that handling the 2 1/2 was easier than the 1 3/4. One trick I was taught was for the back up man to let as much hose rest on the floor( beside what he was holding ) This helps absorb the nozzle reaction.
    One good reason to use smooth bore nozzles (and there are plenty) that doesnt always get mentioned, is debris in the standpipe system ( and we get alot of that ) Alot of it gets expelled out the end of the nozzle, verses getting trapped at the nozzle tip on a non-smooth bore nozzle. I do remember a few years ago though; about an Engine Co. losing water at the nozzle, due to a D Cell battery making its way to the nozzle and lodging in the tip, causing a loss of water. I think things like that would happen much more frequently without the smoothbore nozzles.

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    We have two seperate packs. The first has 100' of 2" hose, a 10' section of 3" hose and a gated wye. The second has another 100' of 2", a 75psi TFT nozzle and a small zipper bag with spanners and wedges. We use two packs so as to split the load between FF's.
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    MattyJ raises an interesting point - how many of us flow our standpipe outlets for a few seconds before hooking up so as debris etc is cleared out?
    Busy polishing the stacked tips on the deckgun of I.A.C.O.J. Engine#1

    ...and before you ask - YES I have done a Bloody SEARCH!

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    My 3 cents on this....... Use 2" hose in 75' Sections (reduces weight slightly and increases flow cabilities). Then go with a TFT Midforce low pressure nozzle (Dual pressuer 35/75) which is a newer version of what xdave 1983 is using. This nozzle gives you awesome flow (just under 200GPM in the Low pressure setting and 200 GPM in Standard) and the straight stream has the same reach and hitting power as a 15/16" SB tip...

    Then carry a lightweight gated wye with a gauge on it and a 10' section of 3" to get you from the connection to the floor. Dave has a good point about splitting the load.
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    I should have mentioned, our 2" is in 100' sections.
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    Dave...you got oldtimers disease.....(not captoldtimer)....You did say it!

    The first has 100' of 2" hose, a 10' section of 3" hose and a gated wye. The second has another 100' of......
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    Originally posted by captstanm1
    Dave...you got oldtimers disease.....(not captoldtimer)....You did say it!

    OK...I know Im 40 now, but we dont have to start with the oldtimers cracks

    What I MEANT too say, is we have two 100' sections as opposed to four 50' sections.



    Or is that what I said?



    OK...Go ahead with the oldtimers cracks
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    I knew what you thought that I thought you meant.
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    For those of you concerned with the pressures our standpipe operations are completed with 70psi at the outlet for 3 lengths and 80 for 4 lengths.
    What are they pressure are they giving the midforce nozzles?

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    Originally posted by captstanm1
    I knew what you thought that I thought you meant.

    Ummm, your starting to sound like my wife
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    Originally posted by jfTL41
    For those of you concerned with the pressures our standpipe operations are completed with 70psi at the outlet for 3 lengths and 80 for 4 lengths.
    What are they pressure are they giving the midforce nozzles?

    Our county SOG for standpipe operations in to supply 150psi at the FDC with either dual 3" or one 5" LDH. The only friction loss calculation is from the engine to the FDC. Hose length/nozzle type used for attack is not figured in
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    We use an in line pressure guage at the outlet it keeps things simple and the guy at the outlet controls the pressure with the wheel(if there is one) or a pipe wrench. That's just what works for us.

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