Thread: Tailboard talk

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    Default Tailboard talk

    I was looking at the front page of FH.com and noticed these pictures. Lets have a discussion. This is NOT MEANT TO BASH . I would like some feedback on my thoughts. I am not a big fan of putting firefighters on pre-piped aerials. I am figuring that there is an automatic nozzle control at ground level.
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    Default Now a second thought.

    I unsderstand it may be a funny camera angle, but I am wondering what the goals are in this photo. Once again , I am not going to criticize but since the pics are out there. lets have some good fire tactics talk.
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    A friend of mine (known here as Smokeeater1) and I were just talking about this the other day.

    Our determination: having someone do what this firefighter is doing is pretty much pointless. We don't really need a guy at the end of the aerial, now do we? We know where the fire is, and we know where the stream's a-goin'. In the meantime, there are defensive activities to conduct -- exposure protection and collapse zone control chief among them. Just seems like a waste to have a man up there.

    Not to mention the possibility/probability that he's having to subject himself to the elements and the byproducts of fire and such.

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    Personally I would have ditched that worthless fog tip and used a smoothbore tip.

    Two Reasons:

    Better/more effective penetration on this very large fire.

    Lower pump pressures required to get an appropriate stream and flow. Thus increasing the total capacity of the Engines pumping on scene. Less chance of burst lengths...etc.

    Other than that it is hard to see what they did after this photo was taken or what they were planning on doing. A headsup thing might be to shoot the stream up thru the windows into the common cockloft...which acording to the article reached 9-10 buildings. That is as opposed to aiming down thru the roof. At least that is what it appears they were looking to do in this picture.

    I would be interested to know the ventilation used early in the fire and if they used a trench cut or how they stopped the fire from taking the whole block.

    FTM-PTB

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    Deck guns and ladder pipes should not have fog nozzles.
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    I can see the potential for sending up a guy to ascertain the best attack angle from the tip, especially when you're trying to reach over or around something that can't be seen from the ground. Once the best spot is settled on, the guy comes back down. Of course we don't know if this guy stayed up there or not, but you have to admit that we don't see many pictures of empty platforms and sticks spraying water - without a brave hero up there the photo isn't nearly as interesting.

    With that much fire, I am wondering if more concern should be focused on making sure the apparatus isn't set up in the collapse zone than trying to suppress the fire.

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    Default Collapse zone

    I am curious to know the actual distance that lies between the building and the ladder. It APPEARS to be a little close for comfort in photo # 2. Anybody that made that fire lurking?
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    Dave why would you not have a fog nozzle on a deck gun or pipe? We have them on all our deck guns monitors and ladder pipes.

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    Originally posted by LACAPT
    Dave why would you not have a fog nozzle on a deck gun or pipe? We have them on all our deck guns monitors and ladder pipes.
    Deck guns and ladder pipes are for large amounts of water, penatration and reach. In my book that means solid bore. You can get significant water from a fog, but certainly not the penatration or reach.

    The only time I would use a fog on either is exposure protection or on a large LPG tank for cooling.
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    Originally posted by LACAPT
    Dave why would you not have a fog nozzle on a deck gun or pipe? We have them on all our deck guns monitors and ladder pipes.
    Because employing a ladder pipe means that you want to move massive quantities of water, and that you probably need plenty of reach. Smoothbore gives you both, and does so far better than a fog nozzle does, even if the fog is cranked all the way down to straight stream.

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    They need to put 2 outlets on the sticks. A straight bore and a multi patern fog. Similar to what is on the tower baskets. Then you can select which one to use.
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    Why not instead of having two nozzles on the end use one of those new nozzles that have both a fog and smooth bore in one tip..? I am not too experienced with them, only held one, never put water through it...but in theory wouldn't it work?

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    I will not criticise the firefighter on the stick untill the officer who put him up there explains reasons for it.
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    They need to put 2 outlets on the sticks. A straight bore and a multi patern fog. Similar to what is on the tower baskets. Then you can select which one to use.
    I'm Curious, Why would you consider anything like that? (Perhaps you were joking and I missed the sarcasm.)

    Why would you want a fog tip on a ladder pipe? Why would you have one on a basket? Why spend the money on two outlets? There are some operations where a fog would be the choice, but they are few and certainly not here in the example given where fire is extending through a common cockloft. All a fog will do is entrain more air and shove the fire faster and farther throughout the exposed buildings and their respective voids.

    Recently my former company operated at a large fire where they had a fog tip on the ladderpipe. My friend who was at the pedestal told me the stream EVAPORATED before it even got close to the fire. They even had a picture where the fog could be seen turning to steam.

    How is this fog tip going to put out the fire faster? Stop being impressed by the salesmen and purchase and use what works. Smoothbores on heavy caliber streams.

    FTM-PTB

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    We just recently had a surround and drown 3 alarm fire and we have a smoothbore nozzle on our bucket on my truck which is a snorkel....a mutual aid company came in and had the dual nozzle set both had fog stream/straight stream patterns but didnt have the force or penetration to actually do any damage to the fire and smoldering debris afterwards when we were wetting down the remains of the roof & 2nd floor. Alot of people said oh there truck is so great because they had 2 nozzles but what they dont realize is in the long run we were flowing more water and putting more fire out with our truck. That seems to be hte most popular thing around here though is fog nozzles on aerial apparatus....another example used our truck in a fire couple months ago in the neighboring town..all of there aerials had fog nozzles we had our smoothbore...came in...had the reach..had the force...put out their fire and went home for the night...they were flowing fog streams on the fire and it was just like they were pardon my french "****ing on the fire" but they swear by these nozzles I dont understand...
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    It APPEARS to be a little close for comfort in photo # 2.
    I agree.....additionally the height of the ladder is going to make that ineffective stream even more ineffective. They are shooting up at a fire that has broken through the roof.

    Additionally, I will agree with those that say the need to have a firefighter on that stick is not there. It appears that the MS is an remote controlled one. Why risk a firefighter up there?
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    Now in relation to the question about Fog Tip vs SB tip on Deck
    Guns and Ladder Pipes.....

    I agree that SB definitely gives you more reach and penetration. But....ponder this for a moment.. When the tips are on the Deck Gun or Ladder Pipe, what is are the tip sizes and...which one do you leave in place? OK...times up.....ANSWER: Part 1: The standard stack is: 1 3/8", 1 1/2", 1 3/4" and 2" (no tip, just the stream straightner. Most any deck gun or master stream you see (regardless of it's capability (For example: the TFT Crossfire is capable of over 1200 GPM on the unit)will have a 1 3/8" tip on it. This means if you crank up tha cannon you will be flowing a wopping 500 GPM! Why do we limit our cabilities? How many of you honestly can say(I am guilty) have charged a deck gun to flow "big water" and never changed tips and then to make it worse, never think about shutting dow for a second and going to your biggest tip? So...SB tips for master streams do work,......but they only work if used correctly.

    It is obvious that the stream in those pictures is ineffective. It is breaking up before it even hits the building.

    Now.....I will have to also take one more step and disagree with the nay sayers about Fog Tips on Master Streams. The TFT Monsoon will give awesome flow results and when in the SS setting will give you the same reach and hitting power as 2" tip. I have seen it done side by side. It (TFT) seems to me to be the only manufacturer that can boast that claim. Others do not have the definitive stream and the point of break over is less on their Fog TIPS. I like the ability to use that FOG stream for protection if nesessary. However, I am an advocate of having dual Master Streams on a Tower and one of each tip on the basket. In a straight ladder you can change tips (even on remote controlled) with relative ease, but again...who does it?
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    Now.....I will have to also take one more step and disagree with the nay sayers about Fog Tips on Master Streams. The TFT Monsoon will give awesome flow results and when in the SS setting will give you the same reach and hitting power as 2" tip. I have seen it done side by side.
    I have never seen the Monsoon, and if it works as well as you say I would consider switching. Just with the standard Elkart, Akron and TFT master stream nozzles we have had over the years, there is no comparison to solid bore as far as reach.
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    I agree that the tactical decision to put that firefighter on the end of the ladder is a question that needs to be asked.
    Captain Gonzo and I had an interview where we discussed some of what is killing firefighters in this country. And he hit the nail on the head when he said in his interview with me that we don't properly weigh the risk vs. benefit, if we even consider it!
    Look at this photo. What is the risk and where is the benefit?
    Seriously. Can someone honestly answer that question?
    I got to thinking about how my volunteer department reacts to a call after talking with the Gonz. And a smirk came to my face as I thought about it, because Gonzo had never met my fire department, but he knew them all too well. We do "run hot" to car fires that are already twisted metal and melted plastic when we get there. We "run hot" to fires in a field of BEAN STUBBLE. We race to an incident when the benefit doesn't outweigh the risk. We go to an abandoned farmhouse with the fire blowing through the roof and you want to send in an interior team? What for?
    We need better decisions. Either that or keep the photographers away from our scenes.
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    Department near me would have to have a guy on the tip. Their ladder does not have a pre-piped nozzle so the only way they can control it is to have someone up there aiming it.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    We use lanyards to control the up/down adjustments of the ladder pipe from the ground... nobody ever fell off the ground!

    Next question is... the ladder truck itself out of the potential collapse zone?
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    Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
    ... nobody ever fell off the ground!

    I guess you've never run EMS in my county


    Lanyards is how we did it with our old tiller truck. It was a 1954 ALF with a 100' ladder and no prepiped water way.

    Boy, do I miss that baby
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    Gonzo.....we used to also do that on our ladder that had the removable Ladder Pipe....
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