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    Default 2 IN/2OUT Question

    Ok before you jump on me I did a search and have looked online also.

    My Lt. and I are at a disagreement. I said that technically you have to have 2in/2out in place before firefighters enter an IDLH atmosphere. He says that in our department it only counts if the incident is marked a working fire. I understand that different jurisdictions may have interpreted it differently and used there own SOP's. I would like to find the standard and what it states exactly aside from our SOP. Any help on this would be appreciated. Even your own interpretation or SOP of your dept. Thanks.

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    Give OSHA's 1910.134 Respiratory Protection standard a look. That's where the requirement is set for two-in/two-out. I believe it says that this is required any time operations are occurring in an IDLH atmosphere.

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    Default Good rule of thumb

    If you are on air and inside, then you should be with a partner who is on air...you should have two people ready to go outside...2 in 2 out. The key to the rule is being on air thats why its in the OSHA's 1910.134 Respiratory Protection standard.
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    It's specifically IDLH... not whether you're breathing air... though you will need to be breathing air in an IDLH environment. I can think of plenty non-IDLH situations where people wear SCBA.

    And the "2-out" doesn't necessarily mean outside the building... it means outside the IDLH environment. So your "2-out" can most definetly be in the building, provided they are not in an IDLH environment.

    See: http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owad...RDS&p_id=12716

    1910.134(g)(3) Procedures for IDLH atmospheres

    and

    1910.134(g)(4)Procedures for interior structural firefighting
    Last edited by Resq14; 03-12-2005 at 10:09 PM.
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    14, I may have had a brain fart but if your in an IDLH you should be masked-up and you are correct about the outside the building thing ... it's outside the IDLH area.
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    Ok that explains why I could not find it. I appreciate the information. You alls interpretation is the same as mine as far as the IDLH and whether or not 2in/2out can be in the building just not in the IDLH. I wish that I had put money on it now. We could have split it 4 ways.

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    You can also count your "2 Out" as a pump operator and the IC if that is all you have on scene. The key is that they have to be "on scene" not a responding unit.

    Now....before you jump on me, I will say I do not feel with counting the IC and DPO unless they are in full PPE and ready go. However, we know that does not happen. They may have PPE on but you can bet they will not have SCBA on and I am certain there will not be a line pulled and all the RIT gear assembled in this case either.

    He says that in our department it only counts if the incident is marked a working fire.
    He (the LT) explain to me how your department can have an SOG that superceded Federal Regulations.
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    Originally posted by FireFleitz
    Ok that explains why I could not find it. I appreciate the information. You alls interpretation is the same as mine as far as the IDLH and whether or not 2in/2out can be in the building just not in the IDLH. I wish that I had put money on it now. We could have split it 4 ways.
    If you live in an OSHA state, or in a non-OSHA state that has adopted that particular standard, then it's not an interpretation. It's the right-there-in-black-ink way-it-ought-to-be requirement.

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    You can also count your "2 Out" as a pump operator and the IC if that is all you have on scene. The key is that they have to be "on scene" not a responding unit.
    I think you need to look at the code again.

    I believe it states only one of the two members may be assigned other duties such as IC or Pump operator. Not both. Perhaps someone with the code in front of them can post it.

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    From the horse's mouth:

    1910.134(g)(4)
    Procedures for interior structural firefighting. In addition to the requirements set forth under paragraph (g)(3), in interior structural fires, the employer shall ensure that:
    1910.134(g)(4)(i)
    At least two employees enter the IDLH atmosphere and remain in visual or voice contact with one another at all times;
    1910.134(g)(4)(ii)
    At least two employees are located outside the IDLH atmosphere; and
    1910.134(g)(4)(iii)
    All employees engaged in interior structural firefighting use SCBAs.

    Note 1 to paragraph (g): One of the two individuals located outside the IDLH atmosphere may be assigned to an additional role, such as incident commander in charge of the emergency or safety officer, so long as this individual is able to perform assistance or rescue activities without jeopardizing the safety or health of any firefighter working at the incident.




    Looks to me like the pump operator can't be part of the two out since leaving the pump might jeopardize the safety of other firefighters, but that's just my take.
    Last edited by ullrichk; 03-13-2005 at 02:48 PM.
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    Originally posted by ullrichk
    Looks to me like the pump operator can't be part of the two out since leaving the pump might jeopardize the safety of other firefighters, but that's just my take.
    And that my friends, is why we need (atleast) five people on the first-due assignment.
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    RE343CUE

    I agree....

    And thanks to ullrichk for the information...I stand corrected.
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    Originally posted by Res343cue


    And that my friends, is why we need (atleast) five people on the first-due assignment.

    Kinda makes you wonder about the importance of the IC if they can jump on the RIT crew without endangering other firefighters, doesn't it?

    Glad I could be of assistance.
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    Interestingly enough, NFPA 1500 gives several examples of assigning a 4 person crew to meet the 2/2 requirement. Who do you believe?

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    The difference being that NFPA is a consensous standard. OSHA is a Federal Regulation.
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    Interestingly enough, NFPA 1500 gives several examples of assigning a 4 person crew to meet the 2/2 requirement. Who do you believe?
    I'll still take my crew of 5, or more.

    2/2 with 4 guys...you're spreading your resources too thin. "Just" 5 isn't too much better either.
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    Res343cue.....I agree with you 100%....However, some of us...my department included do NOT have 5 people on duty all the time. We may often run with 4, one of which is the IC(only 1 station) and even though we have mutual aid, it is not automatic and may take 3-7 minutes to arrive. Therefore if we follow the OSHA 2/2 rule to the letter we do not have enough people. Now during the day if we only have 4 on and the Chief is working, we can manage...otherwise we are scr**ed.

    I am all for 5 people...believe me.......

    I feel our situation is about to get worse as we are opening a second sation in June and I see no immediate opportunity to put on more people!
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    Originally posted by ullrichk



    Kinda makes you wonder about the importance of the IC if they can jump on the RIT crew without endangering other firefighters, doesn't it?

    Glad I could be of assistance.
    If the manpower is that low that the IC is part of the 2 in/2 out, there are no other personnel around to be IC for.
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    I wonder if the LT is confusing the situations where 2 in/2 out is not required. If there is a victim inside or if the fire is still in the incipent stage, then 2 in/2 out is not mandated. At least this is what I remember when I read it when it was released.
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