1. #26
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    Originally posted by FYRTRUCKGUY2
    Curious on one thing though....what about the small to midsize community that was a sleepy little farming community that has begun to see urban sprawl, growing with alot of residential two/three stroy homes and unsure how to handle it with little manpower? It seems as though there is a bit of a trend for departments that never owned an aerial at all, now wanting a pumper with "ladder" capabilites. This is usually due to manpwer shortages of the timely second unit or aerial response. This may be a regional thing, but there seems to be alot of people tryign top accomplish this of late.
    There is definitely a trend toward deployment of aerial apparatus in places that never considered them before, and I doubt that's just regional. If I looked back 20 years in West Central Berks, I'd have seen 18 volunteer fire companies with a total aerial complement of (1) snorkel, (1) ladder-quint and (1) telesquirt. Today (after some consolidations), I see the same area covered by 14 fire companies/departments, most volunteer and a few combo, with a total aerial complement of (2) ladder-quints, (1) ladder-quad, (1) tower/ladder-quint, (1) tower/ladder and (1) telesquirt. At the same time, the number of engines in that same area has dropped from 29 to 23, and one or two more may go soon.


    Originally posted by FYRTRUCKGUY2
    The minimal wishes we see a bunch lately in our area is and a thumbnail below of one:

    6 person cab
    525 hp
    med cabinet inside crew area
    85' three section
    2000 pump
    frt bumper hydraulic and electric reels
    three 250' xlays
    rear "suction" with 2 rear slide in 6" x 15' suctions hose
    1200' of 5"
    500' of 2.5"
    1000' of 1" forestry hose on a reel
    145' of ground ladders
    800 water (yes 800)
    50 foam
    two positon aerial and monitor controls
    air and 120 power to the tip
    lots of compartmentation

    Does this make any sense or can someone explain to me the downsides? Yes, I am trying to learn from this question, not promoting or selling a darn thing. Just curious of anyones experience with something like this? Please share.
    Although I run with an engine/tanker company now, I was with a truck company for years and I helped spec the ladder-quad listed above. In general, as I said in a post earlier in this thread, the best-utilized quints & quads are those that are trucks first and engines only in a pinch. I'd also add that they are not "over-spec'ed" in the sense that the companies don't try to do too much with them. A lot of the things on your list look just fine to me, but here are some thoughts on the others:

    Hard suction hose - I'm not a fan of setting up quints to draft. Whatever they are, they are either trucks or attack engines, but not supply pieces. My feeling has always been this...if you don't set the aerial up to draft, nobody is tempted to send it to a dry hydrant or a pond where it doesn't belong anyway. The only way I would put hard sleeve on a quint is if I covered an area where buildings comonly have dry hydrants on cisterns for fire department use. Otherwise, nada.

    800 water/50 foam - If this is class B foam, my question is, "Why?" Unless the budget is incredibly tight, find an engine (or even a tanker) that you can set up for class B foam operations. Remember...if you're really going to use this quint as a multifunction piece, then you can have a one or two man engine coming behind it to set up a water supply. That engine can carry less conventional tools and more specialized equipment, such as foam, now that you have the quint. If this is CAFS, then my question is, "Why so much water?" I love the idea of a CAFS quint...with a 250 gal water tank, a 10 gal. Class A foam tank, and a CAFS system, you're in business with the typical residential structure fire. And, you'll have bought yourself space for ladders, deeper compartments, or something else by getting rid of some of that water.

    1000' of forestry hose - this isn't a brush truck, and you shouldn't use it as one. Sorry, but this is a classic example of over-spec'ing, unless I'm missing something.

    med cabinet - please, please, please run a brush, a car, an engine, a tanker...anything but a $500K quint for QRS. With all due respect to the folks who think every unit designation starts with "medic" (e.g. "medic-engine," "medic-tower," etc.) that's the most insane thing I've ever heard of.

    Rear suction - make that a rear direct intake to the ladder, not the pump, and you've got yourself a deal. Set up the aerial so it can be supplied either through the pump or externally by an engine. You'll thank me later.

    That's about it. Hope this helps.
    Last edited by bobsnyder; 04-05-2005 at 12:23 PM.

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    [QUOTE]. Incorrect. We have full NFPA ladders (including a 35')and tools
    on our quint, which is less then 40' OAL.

    2. If you spot the rig corecttly in the first place, this isnt an
    issue.

    3. OK, I'll give you that one.

    4. Really dont see why. A truck, quint or not, should have the
    biggest motor/trans anyway.

    5. Huh? If you have 4 FF's on your quint and you need it as an
    engine co., you have a 4 FF engine co. If you have 4 FF's and
    you use it as a truck co., you have a 4 FF truck co. Just
    because a quint can do both, doesnt mean you try and do both at
    the same time. Its one or the other.

    Lets see:

    1. NFPA ladder compliment is 117' now right? Certainly not what I'd consider a Truck Co. compliment. Sure it meets but how about having enough tools in the chest to actually do the job? NFPA is a minimum requirement, actually ISO requires more.
    2. If you spot the truck correctly every time, how do you limit firefighters from appearing at windows too far away? How about potential victims. Did you park it correctly for Engine Ops or did you atleast place it for Truck Ops and stretch hoses? Did you spot it for a rescue and then later need a vent? Too many variables to spot perfectly everytime. matbe you have enough aerials or mutaul aid co.s to not have to worry about this. We don't.
    3. O.K.
    4. All comes down to dollars and sense. Why go smaller with motor? Personnaly, I agree but when its making the price cut into critical equipment you have to cut where theres fat.
    5. Exactly my point, only enough to do one function and even then how well? Are the firefighters assigned to the quint as good at Engine Ops as true engineonly personnel, how about truck ops. In a time when most would agree good Truck work is lacking we should focus on that task not the Jack of all, master of none. How much time does a paramedic riding a quint in a dept. that does Haz-mat, tech. rescue and extrication get to work on true Truck Co. work?

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    Question

    FYRTRUCKGUY2:

    Why are you not a big fan of mid-mounts? I'm interested because we could not find any tactical benefit from a rear-mounts. In fact all issue we found with the MM's were training issues. Unless you have station length issues but not height problems.



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    Originally posted by RFDACM
    Exactly my point, only enough to do one function and even then how well? Are the firefighters assigned to the quint as good at Engine Ops as true engine only personnel, how about truck ops...How much time does a paramedic riding a quint in a dept. that does Haz-mat, tech. rescue and extrication get to work on true Truck Co. work?
    Overall, this is a major issue when choosing to use or not to use a quint in the career/combo world, but it's barely a passing consideration in most of the volunteer world. In most volly fire companies (not all...note I didn't say "all"), everyone who possibly can be trained will be cross-trained on whatever functions that volly station performs, staffing is a variable, and the exact complement of apparatus making it to the scene, as well as the order they arrive, are all variables, too. Nobody is strictly assigned to anything in these environments until they show up, roll out the door and get their assignments on route from the IC, and how good they are at whatever they get assigned to is a function of the company's training program and their level of participation in it, not what rig they are on at the time. In this kind of environment, why not have multifunction apparatus available to you, especially when you don't really know whether that dispatch for three engines, a truck and a rescue will really get you those five rigs, or just two or three of them at any given time?? (or whatever, pick your specific example...the situation is the same no matter how big or small you make the assignment)

    Originally posted by RFDACM
    In a time when most would agree good Truck work is lacking we should focus on that task not the Jack of all, master of none.
    This I agree with wholeheartedly, no matter what the type of department, although it's probably a bigger problem in the volly world than the paid world. Even so, the choice of a quint or a pure aerial isn't going to make or break truck ops training in most volly departments, because of the reasons I mentioned above.

    I really think that the issue of the use of quints and quads is an entirely different discussion in the career world than in the volunteer world. While the two can certainly learn from each other, some key elements, such as staffing, work so differently in practice that it's really impossible to get apples-to-apples comparisons between the two on this issue. This isn't an attempt to get a volly-career debate going, it's just a reality of the differences between these two settings, at least in my experience.

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    I think Guy's ideas overall have merit, but again - what works for one department will certainly not work for another. In my department's case, a quint with 800 gallons of water could be overkill, but our neighboring district, if minimally staffed, could do a lot of damage with a quint with that kind of water, where much of their district could use an aerial on some of the enormous homes they cover, and virtually the entire area is without hydrants.

    It goes to the 55 foot aerial argument on the list elsewhere. FINE. It won't work for you, but don't tell someone else what will work for them. But I digress, Guy was looking for comments and ideas.

    Reduce the tank size to 400-500 for us, minimal complement of ground ladders is fine, ditch the forestry line, and we could use a quint as a first out engine at one of our stations. We've had a truck (R.I.P.), and with our staffing (volunteer) challenges, it rarely got out the door due to limited folks trained on it, it was a truck with only a pump (no hose, tank) so it was never a useful first out piece, etc. Of course training is another argument, but when you make your first out piece carry that aerial to every fire, I suspect it will be placed correctly on a regular basis, the main will get up more often, and it will fit our needs better than a conventional dry truck. That station also runs a squad with extrication equipment, so that would be even less that would have to stuffed into a quint. Our response area really doesn't dictate the truck ops that say a city like Boston or Chicago does, where loads of ground ladders are a way of life. We just don't have the buildings that require that style of operation, and I'll be darned if we build a quint for someone else's needs a district or two over.

    The large city nearby runs three quints as engines in their first due stills, trucks or engines where they're second due, and seems to do okay with it. This is in addition to two "straight" trucks, and eight engines. Staffing is five per quint, so they aren't stripped, but they can hardly perform both functions. My argument against them is that they run everything for that station - service calls, medical runs, etc. They are tearing the heck out of 105' quints doing this stuff daily. I'll bet every week you hear of requests for maintenance due to another tire failing (they eat tires on the rear end). Ladder tenders would work wonders here, or even light squads with two guys jumping off of the quint for med runs.

    You know though, I drove by a quint just yesterday coming back from lunch dealing with a grass fire on a bike path, under a bridge. I bet those guys would have given anything for that 1000' of forestry line.

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    1. NFPA ladder compliment is 117' now right? Certainly not what I'd consider a Truck Co. compliment. Sure it meets but how about having enough tools in the chest to actually do the job? NFPA is a minimum requirement, actually ISO requires more.
    How many ground ladders do you really need on one rig? And why cant you include the ground ladders you have on the engines that are on scene? We get a quint and 3 engines on first alarm. Thats over 250' of ground ladders on scene. Sounds like plenty too me.


    2. If you spot the truck correctly every time, how do you limit firefighters from appearing at windows too far away? How about potential victims.
    If its spotted correctly, this shouldnt be an issue. Unless your talking a hi-rise and if so I would hope you have more then one aerial on scene. If your talking a two story house, ground ladders should take care of all the windows so firefighters can use these. That is why we carry so many, right?

    How about potential victims.
    See above.

    Did you park it correctly for Engine Ops or did you atleast place it for Truck Ops and stretch hoses?
    A quint is a truck first, regardless if it happens too be first in and you pull an attack line off. Spotting should be as for a truck.

    Did you spot it for a rescue and then later need a vent?
    Again, on most 2 story houses, you are going to be able to do an aerial rescue from the front, which is most likely the same place you would set up for roof vent. On a hi-rise, you dont need to do roof vent, so its not an issue.

    4. All comes down to dollars and sense. Why go smaller with motor? Personnaly, I agree but when its making the price cut into critical equipment you have to cut where theres fat.
    In no way do I consider the engine/transmission to be budget "fat".

    Exactly my point, only enough to do one function and even then how well? Are the firefighters assigned to the quint as good at Engine Ops as true engineonly personnel, how about truck ops. In a time when most would agree good Truck work is lacking we should focus on that task not the Jack of all, master of none. How much time does a paramedic riding a quint in a dept. that does Haz-mat, tech. rescue and extrication get to work on true Truck Co. work?
    They are here. I see this argument all the time and with all do respect, dont get. Perhaps its that I have always worked in a department were everyone is crossed trained, in a county were all departments do the same. Its the way we do it here. Every FF is expected to be proficiant at truck and engine co opps. We train A LOT.

    Last shift, I was ridding jumpseat on the truck. This shift, Im back at more normal position driving the engine. Next shift, I could easily be sent to the squad. Its the norm here. We dont have any of the "I got sent to the truck when I got hired and 15 years later Im still a truckie". Doesnt work that way here. And Im talking county wide (62 stations). Oh, and thats paid stations in a densly populated, urban area. So lets drop the "quints only work for volly or small rural departments" argument.

    Please understand, Im not busting on how anybody operates. Im just responding to more of the constant negatives I read here about quints. Its always the same. Consider that all the negatives you bring up about quints, I can bring up about straight ladders. A straight ladder makes absolutly no sense to me. Again, its probably because I come from an all quint county and after 22 years, its all I know.
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  7. #32
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    Default Clarification

    FIRST- Awesome comments by all! Thank you. Very productive and open minded coorespondance here....I am appreciative to all.

    To clarify the "ruralish" aerial / quint description I there out. I must agree whole heartedly with npfd801, no departments have mirrored oprating conditions and/or SOP's, so the configuration is no a solve all, nationwide solution.

    Couple clarifications. For those who do not know our area, it is very "hilly" (to flatlanders, it would be "mountainous" - LOL!) as have significant valleys that form and area called the Fingers Lakes region. The lakes vary from 20-50 miles long and pose a significant issue. The lake banks are incredibly steep and narrow onalmost all the finger lakes that span accross a vast majority of the central part of the state. What has happened, is that vinyards, and lake properies have exploded. Where the majority of these previously had summer "camps", we find people wrecking or burning them to put up 3-15,000 sq. ft. homes on these remote roads with limited access. the inhabitance of the rural wooded areas alone. creates lots of woods fires, hence the forestry reels going on almost every truck, along a lake, as it is easy to deploy and easy to pickup. It is alos a heck of alot easy to use on some long lays, that sometimes can be 500ish feet! So, that item is kind of particualr to our geography.

    The foam is paralleled to the forestry lines, 1.75" lines and is used in Class A application only. The 50 gallons is strictly Class A, no B foam at all.

    The overall intent is kind of two fold. One is a secondary engine during concurrent multiple calls. The quint being first out on second calls, when the primary engine is out on the first run (hence the 800 water, as a first out engine on second calls, or if the engine is OOS). The second scenario is ladder operations on big stuff, doing ventilation, elevated master stream, etc.

    I do not know if we are trying to put too much crap in one piece, but it seems to be the wave here of late. One thing that is nice though, these units are remaing in control size wise, for instance the OAL of the midmount is 41ish' with a 235 WB", not bad for whats on it.

    So, maybe its a "if it works for you thing", but your comments make a bunch of sense, are helpful, insightful and more important, appreciated.

    Stay safe and good luck.

    GUY

    PS---- I could not agree more on the "suction hose" on a ladder thing!!! YIKES! Next it will be a ladder/quint tanker with side and rear Newton dumps valves, cab controlled of course!

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    PS---- I could not agree more on the "suction hose" on a ladder thing!!! YIKES! Next it will be a ladder/quint tanker with side and rear Newton dumps valves, cab controlled of course!
    With ground sweep nozzles, a light tower and an SCBA refill system
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    Originally posted by Dave1983


    With ground sweep nozzles, a light tower and an SCBA refill system
    Starting to sound like a LHS special.


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    Default Re: Clarification

    Originally posted by FYRTRUCKGUY2
    PS---- I could not agree more on the "suction hose" on a ladder thing!!! YIKES! Next it will be a ladder/quint tanker with side and rear Newton dumps valves, cab controlled of course!
    I disagree. If you plan on even INFREQUENTLY pulling a handline, especially in a rural area, equip the truck so that it could draft from portable dump tanks if you ever need to.

    Obviously it would be silly to plan on sending the only ladder in an area to a draft site, dry hydrant, cistern, etc IF there are better options.

    However, if you're running mutual aid and your quint has the biggest pump on it (and there is another ladder responding), it might make sense to at least CONSIDER the option of placing the biggest pump at the water source, especially on a long lay.

    Suction hose isn't ungodly expensive, it can be thrown up and out of the way, so I say, "WHY NOT?" We don't always need dedicated vehicles for every task. Some departments might, but not all do.
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    Default Re: Clarification

    Originally posted by FYRTRUCKGUY2
    Couple clarifications. For those who do not know our area, it is very "hilly" (to flatlanders, it would be "mountainous" - LOL!) as have significant valleys that form and area called the Fingers Lakes region. The lakes vary from 20-50 miles long and pose a significant issue. The lake banks are incredibly steep and narrow onalmost all the finger lakes that span accross a vast majority of the central part of the state. What has happened, is that vinyards, and lake properies have exploded. Where the majority of these previously had summer "camps", we find people wrecking or burning them to put up 3-15,000 sq. ft. homes on these remote roads with limited access.
    Your area has some very unique features, but most of your issues are similar to issues we face.

    Originally posted by FYRTRUCKGUY2
    The inhabitance of the rural wooded areas alone. creates lots of woods fires, hence the forestry reels going on almost every truck, along a lake, as it is easy to deploy and easy to pickup. It is alos a heck of alot easy to use on some long lays, that sometimes can be 500ish feet! So, that item is kind of particualr to our geography.

    The foam is paralleled to the forestry lines, 1.75" lines and is used in Class A application only. The 50 gallons is strictly Class A, no B foam at all.
    I still don't know if I'd do the forestry hose thing on a quint, but now I understand why you would be seriously considering it. However, if you're setting this up as a CAFS rig, with the intent of using compressed air foam for both the wildland and structural attack modes, this will significantly reduce the amount of water you need on board.

    Originally posted by FYRTRUCKGUY2
    I do not know if we are trying to put too much crap in one piece, but it seems to be the wave here of late.
    That doesn't mean you have to give in to temptation. The winner isn't the one with the biggest, shiniest rig (although lots of people think that's the way it works); it's the one who can efficiently and effectively rescue the victims and extinguish the fire.

    Originally posted by FYRTRUCKGUY2
    One thing that is nice though, these units are remaing in control size wise, for instance the OAL of the midmount is 41ish' with a 235 WB", not bad for whats on it.
    Actually, in the kind of area you have you would probably be better off with a mid-mount. If you're talking long lanes, you're also talking about situations where you may not have much choice on placement. In that case, a mid-mount gives you more flexibility in how you use the aerial device, especially if you're stuck in a situation where the only access you have leaves you nose-to-the-fire.

    Originally posted by FYRTRUCKGUY2
    I could not agree more on the "suction hose" on a ladder thing!!! YIKES! Next it will be a ladder/quint tanker with side and rear Newton dumps valves, cab controlled of course!
    They're out there. Fallon-Churchill in Nevada custom designed a fleet of quint-tanker-rescue-etc combo rigs to get their ISO Class 1 rating. I think it's a bit excessive (or obsessive, I'm not sure which), but to each their own, I guess. I stand by my earlier position...no suction hose on quints.

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    My definition of quints in most large departments is simply:

    Quints: Manpower limiting devices used by weak fire department administrators to please their political handlers by reducing manpower and decreasing budgets at the expense of the personnel on the rigs.

    Both my career and volunteer departments have them. In my career department they (All 3 of them out of 36) are used as a Truck Co. In my volunteer department they (We have 2) are used depending on how they arrive on the scene and they perform the functions of one or the other, not both.

    Things to remember about quint apparatus:

    1) Quints are designed and built to perform 2 functions on the fireground simultaniously. They can only do this if staffed correctly. The MINIMUM staffing needed to perfrom even the most basic engine and truck work, at the same time, is 8:

    1 - Pump Operator
    1 - Officer
    1 - FF for the line (Nozzle)
    1 - FF for the line (Back-up)
    1 - FF for Forcible Entry/Ventilation
    1 - FF for Forcible Entry/Ventialtion
    1 - FF for Search
    1 - FF for Search

    And this only allows the basic bases to be covered. How many departments have this staffing? Few if any.

    2) Spot it as a Truck Co. for the aerial everytime. You can stretch hose, but not the main aerial.

    3) If you use reverse lays, remember not to send your quint to the plug with the line or else your aerial is going to be tied to the plug for the duration.

    4) Someone mentioned that the 117' of ground ladders was inadequate. Actually its 88' for a quint to meet NFPA. Even more pathetic.

    5) If you buy one, run it as a Truck Co. that is capable of generating its own water supply for its master streams or run it as an Engine Co. that has its own aerial master stream, not both.

    6) Ever laid a LDH supply line with a quint around a corner? LOL. Avoid it if possible unless you have spare parts readily available in your station or a side stacker body which means no compartment space.

    Just my thoughts.

    Stay low and move it in.
    Last edited by STATION2; 04-10-2005 at 12:11 AM.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    I see it pretty simple as far as staffing it.

    Quint comes in first, positions as a truck. Engine comes in after it, drops its crew, lays line from Quint to water supply. There's your two crews to run the truck. Why is this such a hard thing for people to figure out?
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    Quints: Manpower limiting devices used by weak fire department administrators to please their political handlers by reducing manpower and decreasing budgets at the expense of the personnel on the rigs.
    Same old tired argument

    1) Quints are designed and built to perform 2 functions on the fireground simultaniously. They can only do this if staffed correctly. The MINIMUM staffing needed to perfrom even the most basic engine and truck work, at the same time, is 8:
    Quints are desinged to function as a ladder co OR engine co. Only an idiot would try and do both at the same time. We have 4 on our quint. So we either have a 4 FF engine co or a 4 FF ladder co.

    6) Ever laid a LDH supply line with a quint around a corner? LOL. Avoid it if possible unless you have spare parts readily available in your station or a side stacker body which means no compartment space.
    Yes, many times. Never had a problem. And we dont have a side stacker.

    Quint comes in first, positions as a truck. Engine comes in after it, drops its crew, lays line from Quint to water supply. There's your two crews to run the truck. Why is this such a hard thing for people to figure out?
    BINGO

    Or, as we do it, engine lays from the hydrant to the quint. Its not rocket science folks
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    Dave,

    Same old tired argumant: I have seen it first hand and its true. Notice I prefaced the comment by saying for large departments. Too many of them have bought quints thinking they can reduce overall staffing and/or the number of companies they have by using them. Richmond, St. Louis, LACoFD, etc. Check their staffing on the rigs and/or the number of quints they have compared to the number of traditional Engine Co.'s and Truck Co.'s they had pre-quint. The numbers are not the same.

    1) Tell that to the cities that combine the Engine Co. and Truck Co. from the same quarters into a Quint Co. with a 4 person crew. You can't tell me the district is receiving the same level of protection with a 4 person crew that it recieved with an 8 person crew and two companies. The math doesn't add up.

    2) Read my previous number #5. I say the same thing. They can only function one way or the other. The problem is when cities try to run them and have them do both.

    3) I know departments that run them and they can't put their LDH on the ground around a corner, or even in a straight line, without the hose catching on a step, grab rail, turntable access ladder or some other body component and either breaking whatever it hung up on or not laying at all.

    4) As Bones 42 said, and you echoed, that is what I am saying in my original #5 post. Use them one way or another, not both. However, the issue with the scenario mentioned is: The Quint Co. comes in first, they stretch a line and start suppression functions. The Engine Co. comes in, drops its crew, and the rig goes to the plug while reverse laying or they lay coming in from the plug, either way. No problem, BUT. How many of those Engine Co.'s will now stretch an additional handline and the BASIC truck work is overlooked and done later or not at all? Alot of them, I have seen it first hand. Alot of the departments that use quints say this happens, the quints use diminish their Truck Co. skills over time. This may not be every quint department, but alot of those that due use them are saying this. Now factor in energy efficient windows and doors, "tighter" building construction, more furnishings inside being petrolium product based and the need for Truck Co. work is even more important and needs to be done quicker to prevent rapid fire spread, flashovers (Which are increasing), injury to our Brothers and Sisters and worse. And how about the ability to advance the line quicker and get water on the fire? It is always going to be quicker for the Engine Co. to stretch, locate and get water on the fire when they have timely and effective ventilation. Don't you agree? The search for occupants needs to be done quicker for the above reasons and timely ventilation gives them a better chance of survival by improving the atmosphere they are in. Does any of this make sense? I guess you could say a quint is like a dull pocket knife. It'll still work when you need to cut something, it just takes longer and its not as efficient.

    Just some thoughts.
    Last edited by STATION2; 04-13-2005 at 09:27 AM.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Does any of this make sense?
    Yes, it sounds like guys are failing to do their job, failing to be trained on their job.

    Doesn't sound like a problem with a Quint, more like a problem with the guys doing their jobs. Don't blame a truck for guys not doing their jobs.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I was going to say true but not true in the case of 4 FF quints, but in said case, it should be the engine company doing whatever the quint isn't. So if the quint is going to be the truck company, one ought to have enough sense to know where the engine company is coming from and how far out they are. If they're within a minute, the quint goes into truck mode, ladder and ventilate the building, let the engine company pull the line from whichever truck they want to after they lay the line. Just because the quint has the pump and preconnects doesn't mean they have to get used every time and tie the two trucks down to the scene. Let the preconnects come of the engine if they're laying the line, no sense in the engine company pulling a supply to the quint just to pull their lines off to make it look good.

    And if the engine company isn't close, and the quint crew goes into engine ops, then they should be laying their own line, and the 2nd apparatus to the scene takes truck ops.

    Like Bones said, it's about training. If your first two apparatus crews to the scene are needed for engine ops to pull the 2nd line, it won't matter if the truck company has a pump or not. It takes an officer knowing what is needed and knowing where their resources are to put the crews where they need to be. And if the engine company is 2nd in, and they grab a nozzle instead of ventilating, then that's a leadership and discipline issue, and has nothing to do with the ladder company having a pump on the truck. Roof ventilation is basic FF ops, anyone should be able to do it.

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    1st of all, allow me to clarify my position. I believe that quints fit a purpose in small to medium cities when they are run as trucks with the capability to generate their own water for their master streams or when they are run as engines with an elevated master stream capability. NOT when they are expected to be the cure all for the fire service budget cuts.

    Now, on with the banter,

    I'm hearing the same thing over and over again. Its not the trucks fault, its not the trucks fault. Blame training, blame the guys, blame anything but the TQC/Quints.

    The issue of district coverage is still not being address by any of the quints proponents.

    The issue of fewer fire fighters on the box alarm is not being addressed.

    The issue of the box alarm companies coming from further away is not being addressed.

    The issue of departments who comply with 2 in/2 out having to stand in the street while waiting for their next in company is not being addressed. (And the P/O doesn't count as his job is not one that can be left for R.I.T. duties should they be needed).

    The issue of having to buy a quint that is totally massive just to accomodate all the engine/truck/rescue equipment that departments want on them isn't being addressed. And then when they get it in service its weight restricted on bridges, to tall for tunnels and overpasses and that is to long for road features at intersections.

    Its easy to say the guys aren't trained, they aren't doing there jobs, they want it to fail, etc. Its another to admit that the quint isn't the fullproof method to equip a fire department. It is only a tool in the great toolbox of the company officer and the IC. No matter how you cut it, you still need the guys/gals on the rig to do the job and they need to arrive on the scene in a timely fashion.

    How about compartment space? Unlike the above situation, when departments do buy one that fits their station, bridges, tunnels and roadways instead of the huge-do-all quint, what do they leave off? I like the 75' quints that departments buy as there only aerial device. There is no way in the world that you can say that you have enough room for all the engine and truck equipment on the rig. Something is always left off, put in a room, on another vehicle, or just discarded as "We never use that anyway".

    Oh well, I'll see you guys on the big one when the quints are strapped, the real trucks are flowing water and everyone is scratching their heads wondering what just happened.
    Last edited by STATION2; 04-13-2005 at 07:10 PM.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Well, this is getting us no place fast Sort of like the ever poular fog vs solid theme.

    Just understand where Im comming from. While I dont work for a big department, I work in a county that basicly operates as one. 62 paid stations with the same SOG's and automatic mutual aid. Except for one or two exceptions, we have always been an all quint county (at least since I started in '83). They are the way of life here.

    Too us, an aerial without a pump makes absolutly no sense. The exeptions are the 3 non-quint aerials in the county, which are set up as part of the county wide TRT, and carrys LOADs of TRT equipment.

    We run our quints as ladder companys, and they are dispatched with three engine companys on first alarms. IF the quint happens to make it on scene before an engine, it positions for aerial opps, and then a line is pulled and a fire attack initiated. The first engine to arrive would handle water supply, and the second would assume truck company opps with the equipment from the quint.

    We can do this as everyone is cross trained, and well. We also do not conduct what could be considered normal engine/truck company opps. We are not set up strictly for engines to pull lines while truckies force doors and do searches.

    All companies work together, and each is assigned a task based on what needs to be done at the time, not by the type of apparatus your on. Freelancing is prohibited. Just because your on a truck, doesnt mean as soon as the rig stops your out poping doors and breaking windows. You wait for an assignment. The only given is that whatever rig with a pump arrives first, they will pull a line.

    Right or wrong, its how its done here. And I think we do a preety good job. Not a lot of "parking lots"
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

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  21. #46
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    Dave, I'm not going to get into it with you over the quint thing...I think we both know where both of our feelings lay.

    However the description of where you work sounds very, very similar to where I worked before. And from those expereinces I always found in a system where someone (Batt Chief, etc.) more or less re-writes firefighting procedures on the spot by assinging companines and men as he sees fit at that moment that things get forgotten...like search and adequate personell with tools to expose hidden fire. Consistancy in operations was seldom seen and also varried greatly shift to shift. At 3 in the morning one chief would do xyz and the next day a chief would have the companies do zyx at basicly the same fire...many times almost forgeting about search untill multiple lines were in place...even when there were reported trapped victims!

    Often we likened it to a pick-up football game at the local park where the plays were all outlined by the QB on the spot with no playbook and little preperation.

    How is it you guys avoid this type of occurance? I honestly want to know as this was always a problem where I had worked.

    Also I'm curious as to what you meant by the following? I don't know any dept that allows freelancing...do you?

    Freelancing is prohibited. Just because your on a truck, doesnt mean as soon as the rig stops your out poping doors and breaking windows. You wait for an assignment.
    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 04-13-2005 at 10:05 PM.

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    How is it you guys avoid this type of occurance? I honestly want to know as this was always a problem where I had worked.
    I'll give my experience on it from yesterday's actions. Oddly enough, we were dispatched for 2 structure fires yesterday, neither of which was much at all.

    1st call, we were assigned first due truck en route. I turned to my guys and informed them we were assigned as such. I, as officer, grabbed TIC, Pry-Axe, radio. Guy behind me grabbed irons, behind him was can. Other 2 jump seats were OV and roof, they grabbed a ladder and went up to check the roof as that was where the fire was.

    2nd call, same crew, we were assigned first due engine this time. I, again, grabbed TIC, pry-axe, radio. Guy behind me was backup, behind him was nozzle. Other side had control and doorman.

    We have spent the time to teach/learn/drill the assignments so everyone on the trucks knows what jobs there are to do based on our engine/truck assignment. I don't have a "true" ladder and have yet to really need one. My first out of my house is a 50' Teleboom. Other house runs a 75' Snorkle (useless) as second out. We have nothing over 35' in town except for the high school, and the 50' Teleboom reaches it's top floor without problem (been there, tried that).

    I will admit, the Snorkle is going to be replaced by a 100' TL Quint, which I think is way overkill for what we need, but that's what was decided on by the majority. We may change our procedure when (if) that ever actually shows up, we'll see.

    Our setup may not work for everyone, but it works for us.
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    Originally posted by Bones42

    I will admit, the Snorkle is going to be replaced by a 100' TL Quint, which I think is way overkill for what we need, but that's what was decided on by the majority. We may change our procedure when (if) that ever actually shows up, we'll see.
    Wow Bones that IS major overkill. I know your area well and I don't see that 100'TL maneuvering well, especially when set up. You guys would do much better with a 75' aerial, no?

    I really like how you have riding assignments (or so it sounds). We run our quint very similar (minus riding assignments because you don't know what you're going to get). We run the quint as a truck 80% of the time. Unless we only get enough guys during the daytime to run 1 truck we'll take the quint, not the engine. Basically you are truck duties unless otherwise instructed.

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    You guys would do much better with a 75' aerial, no?
    It gets better. We were originally going with an 85', pretty much same setup just everything a little bit smaller. With the 100', the building has to be modified so it will fit. 85' was no problem. We had a similar truck here, wouldn't let the operator extend it more than a 85' would and it still reached everything we needed. It's going to be large, but it will make it around town. We also had a similar 100' here that we rode around in to see it's maneuverability(sp?). It'll be interesting.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Bones,

    1st call, we were assigned first due truck en route. I turned to my guys and informed them we were assigned as such. I, as officer, grabbed TIC, Pry-Axe, radio. Guy behind me grabbed irons, behind him was can. Other 2 jump seats were OV and roof, they grabbed a ladder and went up to check the roof as that was where the fire was.
    2nd call, same crew, we were assigned first due engine this time. I, again, grabbed TIC, pry-axe, radio. Guy behind me was backup, behind him was nozzle. Other side had control and doorman.
    That makes alot of sense to have pre-assinged duties for the members so that when assigned in route (engine, ladder or whatever) you arrive and know that Fireman Blue is the Back-Up man or Roof man or whatever.

    That means you have two levels of pre-desination... A company level riding possition for all members and a company designation (Engine 123 will be operating at this box as an Engine(or ladder))

    That would have probably helped in many of our situations where we would be in room with two handlines and 1 axe and no hooks to expose the fire in the cockloft. Or where no one was back feeding hose to advancing nozzle teams.

    My question was more in regards to how someone who from what it sounds operates in a system much like what I was formerly accustomed to where there are NO company assignments and from the way I read it a chief decides what each and every individual does when they arrive based on what that chief feels should be done...this would mean there is little operation consistancy, predictablity or coordination. Who is bringing hooks or who is bringing a halligan or a saw to the roof etc. Who is reponsible for making sure the hoseline is stretched with the correct amount of lengths and doesn't have kinks in it. (Think Cincy LODD).

    That also means you are completely reliant on that chief to remember every thing without having an operation plan for guidance...as in the 1st Lad, quint, 2nd Eng or what have you is responsible for search of the fire floor and these are the tools they should carry. This comes from my personal experience of working under similar circumstances where many thought "it worked OK" when really when one sits back and examines the facts and the actual performance on the fire ground...it isn't as foolproof as one might think.

    Interesting discussion regardless.

    FTM-PTB

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