1. #51
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    Or when the 1st due quint arrives and comes in as the Engine Co. The 2nd due comes in and lays the supply line, and then stretches another attack line. The 3rd due comes in and is the R.I.T. The 4th due comes in, and oh yeah, lets make them the Truck Co. Nevermind that the guys on the 4th due rig have only seen the quint at the shop, or during the district meetings, go ahead and operate it anyway. It doesn't matter if you have been assigned to an Engine Co. for the last 5 years and all you know about truck work is what you see on television, on this fire run on up and play like your a truck crew, you can do it. You guys kill me with the company role swapping and rig trading on scenes. We take an already responsibility laden profession and add additional hoops to jump through just for the sake of a certain type of apparatus being bought ad the refusal to use it one way or another everyday.

    And whats with the "assigning" of company type via radio? You are either an Engine Co. or a Truck Co. from time of dispatch to in service, nothing changes because someone says so on the radio. Your apparatus is either fully equipped for one or the other. If you can do that why can't you designate the quint as the tanker for the box? Nevermind it only has a 300gwt because its a quint, lets make them the tanker because we need one on this incident and we can swap company types at our leisure. I know I am playing devils advocate and being difficult, but why add more and more things to remember when doing our jobs? I know why, silly me, your not doing that and its just a simple matter of, guess what? Blame the guys on the rigs. The guys aren't trained, they want it to fail, the guys aren't putting out and doing their jobs, they need more training, blah, blah, blah.

    If the rig is a quint, it is built to do both, but we don't actually staff it to do both when they are staffed with half as many as needed to do BOTH types of work. The cities/administrators win on both fronts. They combine an engine and truck, say it can do BOTH types of work but then only staff it for one type of work.

    And what about the NFPA not helping matters? If a Truck Co. requires 118' or so of ground ladders, why would a "Quint" need only 88' of ground ladders? Hmmmm. Because the committee (Read both manufacturers and administrators) know that most departments want a more compact rig, there in fad now, and not everything from both an Engine Co. and Truck Co. is gonna fit, so lets shave the ground ladders down. Yeah, thats the ticket.

    And what about booster tank size? A quint, like a Class A pumper now, only needs a 300 gallon booster tank. The targeted fire flow from a handline, atleast where I come from, is 200gpm. That means that once started, that gives a bare bones quint 1-1/2 minutes of water. Hmmm. Sounds good enough. LOL. Yeah right.

    Now I now what my hecklers are going to say, "Spec more ground ladders, spec a bigger booster tank, etc." Now you have gone from a single axle 75' quint that meets station, road, bridge and overhead clearance requirments to a tandem axle monster that is needed to accomodate all the "beefed up" components and equipment to make it truley functional as both but is still NOT staffed to do so.

    I'll say it again, a quint needs to be run as either a Truck Co. that can generate its own water supply for its own master streams OR an Engine Co. that has its own elevated master stream capability. Pretty simple. They have the same basic function on the every run they make, Engine Co. or Truck Co., not the interchangable concept based upon the whim of a radio transmission.

    Oh well, my head is bleeding from beating it against this wall. LOL. Just have the super quint reverse lay back from the 1st due engine so a real truck can have the front and the "toy truck" is out of the way at the end of the block.
    Last edited by STATION2; 04-14-2005 at 11:22 PM.
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    FFFRED, I wasnt looking to start a debate on tactics. I just wanted to give the brothers a little background on how we operate and why quints work for us. Also to dispell some of the rumors about quints, like they only work for small departments or in rural areas. We are neither and we use quints.

    However, let me say that while our situation may sound like the place you used to work, I can assure you we have none of the issues you mentioned. The way I read his post, we operate exactly like Bones42. We dont have assignments per seat on the rig. On one call, you may have the nozzle, next call a K-12. This is decided by the CO depending on what assigment he recives from the IC.

    What I meant by the DC (IC) gives assignments, is just cause your a truck, dont assume your going to do truck work. You may get assingned RIG (RIT) or some other task.

    By "freelancing" I meant we dont have situations where the truck would arrive and the the crew would stat doing truck work on there own. Doing that here would be considered "freelancing". I understand this is how some places operate and if it works for them, great. Keep up the good work! I take it from your post that "freelancing" means something else to you. Cool! What you call a Rescue we call a Squad. Different area, different terms.

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    there are NO company assignments and from the way I read it a chief decides what each and every individual does when they arrive based on what that chief feels should be done
    Been there, done that. Moved on to better ways. We used to operate in a fashion similar to that and yes, lots of things were missed or not addressed as quickly as they should have been. Took a while, but we "kept an open mind" and tried different things. It's amazing when people stop banging their heads on walls fighting changes and actually give them a try.

    It won't work for everyone, neither will Quints.
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    Originally posted by Dave1983
    By "freelancing" I meant we dont have situations where the truck would arrive and the the crew would stat doing truck work on there own. Doing that here would be considered "freelancing".
    Funny...most places I've been, this would be called "following SOPs" or "following SOGs."
    It just seems to me that the only way TQC/quints will ever work properly is if the procedures are set in stone, and that every officer knows those procedures by heart. Otherwise, the arriving IC will never know for sure what those guys are in the middle of when he shows up! And why should the quint's officer tie up the radio and take up the incoming chief's time by requesting an assignment, when everything could be laid out already? And that way, everyone knows what the quint will be doing, even if they couldn't hear the radio transmissions.

    Someone already said it, but I'm saying it again: quints should simply be used as trucks that can manage the water supply for their aerial-mounted master stream.

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    Originally posted by ranahan


    Funny...most places I've been, this would be called "following SOPs" or "following SOGs."
    It just seems to me that the only way TQC/quints will ever work properly is if the procedures are set in stone, and that every officer knows those procedures by heart. Otherwise, the arriving IC will never know for sure what those guys are in the middle of when he shows up! And why should the quint's officer tie up the radio and take up the incoming chief's time by requesting an assignment, when everything could be laid out already? And that way, everyone knows what the quint will be doing, even if they couldn't hear the radio transmissions.

    Someone already said it, but I'm saying it again: quints should simply be used as trucks that can manage the water supply for their aerial-mounted master stream.
    The Co's do not call the IC and ask for assignments. This is prohibited for the exact reason you mentioned.

    Sorry, but "set in stone" gets people in trouble. No two fire scenes are the same, so how can you have it that way? We have SOGs that describe unit responsibilities but they are just that, GUIDLINES. You need flexability.

    I'll give you an example of why we dont want units just showing up and doing things. First due engine arrives and starts the attack. There is a hydrant right in front so they have a water supply. Second in is a squad (heavy rescue). Since the truck is still enrout, the squad is assingned forced entry and horizontal ventilation. Truck arrives third due. Now in this situation, per our SOGs, RIG (RIT) needs to be established, so this is given to the truck by the IC.

    Its all about flexability and not "tying the hands" of the IC.
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    I'm not seeing how truck work gets forgotten just because there's a pump on the truck, or how a quint is manned. If the orders for the 2nd due piece of apparatus is a 2nd interior line, or an exposure line, or search and rescue, it doesn't matter whether the 2nd in piece is a quint, ladder, or engine. Same with the 3rd piece. If the 2nd piece's manning goes handline or exposure line, the 3rd piece's takes truck work if that's the next priority to the IC. I rode a truck company for the first 7 years in the service, and we made location several times where we didn't do truck work. Plenty of times we ended up doing engine work because that's what was needed for the second due crew. It depends on sizeup and what the first two jobs needed to be done were. Not what truck shows up when. The only person that always thinks truck work is the chauffer since anything with an aerial always gets staged like a truck company.

    I do agree unless you put 8 guys on a quint it won't be a combo engine/truck. No argument there, nothing works without manpower.

    But the 2nd underlying issue I keep reading is that without a pump on it, the truck work gets missed. That's poor training. Whether it be the officer not knowing who's arriving and giving them the right assignments, or the crews not knowing where they should be, it's training. Because as I said above, you're not always going to be pulling up on scene and performing the work that the stereotypical apparatus companies do. I understand the argument that you just want the crews to not have to think about what they're going to do when they pull up but I think that ought to be taken as an insult to the intelligence of the crews, that they can't learn both jobs, or do more than one company's tasks well, or adapt to a changing environment. Not being able to adapt to change is a sure way to become extinct, it's been happening for years in the animal and plant world.

    "Hey Lois look. The two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant and a white man afraid of change." - Peter Griffin, Family Guy Episode 2.

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    BC79er, my point on the matter of the crews being "instinctual" if you will, is not a slam against their ability to do different company tasks, to not be able to change to the environment, or anything like that. My point was that the quint company, and people who are assigned to them regularly without correct staffing and that are used how they have been described (Engine Co. this run, Truck Co. the next) is playing into the Jack of all trades and Masters of none mindset. I can take the best company officer, the best E/O and the 2 best fire fighters I know and put them on an Engine Co. for 6 months and they will kick %$@ and handle the situation. I can take the same guys and put them on a Truck Co. for 6 months and have the same results. Put them on a quint company whose fireground role changes from run to run, with varying responsibilities for each type, is begging for diminished performance on the fireground. Its more complex than an Engine Co. stretches the line and squirts water on the fire while the Truck Co. forces the doors, searches the building and puts a hole in the roof.

    As many of you know (And forgot if you ride on a quint, LOL), Truck Co. responsibilities are, in no particular order: 1) Forcible Entry 2) Search 3) Ventilation and 4) Salvage and Overhaul. Of these, the first 3 are the most important.

    1) Forcible Entry: Multiple door types, multiple lock systems and types, etc. make the material to cover in order to become proficient that much more time consuming and takes many, many fires of doing it to become good at it.

    2) Search: Multiple types of structures, floor plans and interior design trends make the art of effective searches more difficult and time consuming to become good at. The ability to learn how the fire is extending while your on your knees in a pitch black bedroom can only be learned by doing it over and over again. To know oh yeah, in these types of homes, the basement doors are on the A/C corner or the exterior basement exntrance is on Side C is invaluable when the $#%@ hits the fan at 03:00hrs.

    3) Ventilation: The ability to see enough fires in the same positon each time is needed to allow enough experience to decide if the roof needs to be opened on this fire or is the fire not on the top floor and opening the roof is a waste when I need to be taking the rear windows on the floor below the top floor which is the fire floor. The ability to read a building from a needed ventilation standpoint can't be learned from a book, by watching a video or doing it every once and a while. There is an art to quick and effective ventilation that can't be learned by being an engine guy one day or one run and a truck guy the next. You learn best with repetitive experience doing the same tasks and gaining the valuable knowledge of, on these types of homes I know that .......

    All of it matters, why create a situation where your fire fighters are going to stare at the building like a cow at a new gate when you give them different responsibilities everyother run?

    Oh well, again, I need somemore bandages, my head is bleeding from striking it against the wall one more time. I'll see you guys on the big one, when the quints are overwhelmed and understaffed and the real trucks are saving the day with crews who know how to be truck guys. LOL.
    Last edited by STATION2; 04-15-2005 at 02:35 PM.
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    When the engine company gets on scene first, do they just stand around and wait for the truck company to show up and open the door?

    Does the guy on the nozzle not worry about building layout, where a fire is extending, where exit doors and windows are?

    Does the guy on the nozzle not worry about what ventilation is being done? Does he just blindly shoot water and that's it?

    Damn, again, I thought that was all part of firefighting. Silly me.


    Let's get these guys who don't know forcible entry, don't know building construction, don't know fire behavior, and don't know ventilation and put them on an engine all the time so they don't get hurt, I mean, geez, they might learn something.

    Sorry, this has been (and I hope it continues) a good discussion and I let my sarcastic side show a little, but almost everything I'm seeing blamed on Quints is still looking like training issues to me.
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    Put them on a quint company whose fireground role changes from run to run, with varying responsibilities for each type, is begging for diminished performance on the fireground.
    Engine roles vary from run to run. Are they 1st in and attacking, 2nd due and doing a reverse lay, 3rd in and taking side C, 4th in and taking orders for coffee and donuts? RIT? Search? Sometimes the first in engine does search or ventilation because that's what's needed first.

    Truck roles vary from run to run. Sometimes everyone is doing search, the next time everyone is on the roof for a trench cut, the time after that they're RIT, the time after that they're humping hose on a garden style apartment. Truck roles change from fire to fire.

    Firefighters are jacks of all trades. The way you're making it sound you can't take anyone that normally runs truck company and put them on an OT shift on an engine because they wouldn't be proficient enough to do the job.

    Tehc Rescue and Hazmat, yeah, that's above and beyond, those guys have enough to worry about considering the hours of classes they need to take to keep their certs current, which is why so many don't run on fires. But you should be able to take any firefighter and put them on any apparatus at any time and have them perform any job on the fireground with competency the job. If they can't do that, then they weren't trained properly.

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    I am now standing on my soap box and speaking in a louder tone of voice so that my statement is not taken out of context. LOL.

    The ability for fire fighters to adapt is a given. We have been doing more with less forever, and have become quite adapt at it. However, I am against fire departments themselves encouraging this continued behavior for the sake of the current apparatus fad.

    I am a big believer in fire fighters being better at some things than others. You build off of your crews strengths and use them together as a team to help the team succeed. Plain and simple. Why degrade, if even a little, the strengths of the crew my making them try to cover 6 bases when they could cover just 3? Its not that they can't, but why do it? Does it better the fireground operations? No. Does it better fire fighter safety? No. Does it increase the flexibility of the IC? No, because your gonna have the negative effects of pluging and playing with the companies as they arrive.

    Brian, you said the Engine Co. role changes from run to run. In your own example, 3 of the scenarios mentioned include a common denominator of all Engine Co.'s - hose and water.

    Again with the Truck Co. example - 3 of those scenarios mentioned are those commonly done by Truck Co.'s - Search, Ventilation and RIT.

    As for the Tech Rescue crews, maybe and maybe not. Alot of these guys end up at fires on the multiple alarm assignment and are assigned what role? R.I.T. This for the crew that hasn't been in a fire building in months or longer. But thats another thread.

    Back to the lack of training angle as put forth on here, lets look at departments that uses companies on the fireground based upon their company type: FDNY, Chicago, Boston, etc.

    Are they not trained because they are assigned to Truck Co.'s? Are you saying, because I am not, that when they pick up OT on the Engine Co. that they are not qualified or capable? I think that these guys will tell you that they can do the job just fine but there not doing their normal fireground tasks so they might be a half-step behind or need to take a second longer completing a task. No difference when an Engine Co. guy works OT on the Truck Co. across the floor. Can he do the job? Sure. Is he qualified? You know it. Is he as proficient with a K-12 on the roof of a commercial building with poor visibility as the regular Truck Co. member? Doubt it. Does he know where the vent pipes for the kitchens and bathrooms are going to be located for a queen anne SFD like he would the location of the basement stairs from stretching a line through them time and time before? Probably not.

    Brian, If you ride 1st line on an Engine Co. every shift for 5 years, and your duties are stretching and operating a handline every shift, are you gonna be as proficient with Truck Co. work when assigned on a fill-in or OT on the Truck Co.? No.

    If you drive an Engine Co. every shift for 5 years, and then when you get assigned to operate a quint, lol, or truck are you gonna have to look for the controls instead of knowing by instinct where the controls are? Sure, its human nature. Repetition matters.

    Oh well, I think I am gonna take some aspirin and watch a Third Watch re-run becuase those guys do everything, twice. They must be assigned to a quint. LOL.
    Last edited by STATION2; 04-15-2005 at 09:55 PM.
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    Originally posted by Dave1983
    The Co's do not call the IC and ask for assignments. This is prohibited for the exact reason you mentioned.

    Sorry, but "set in stone" gets people in trouble. No two fire scenes are the same, so how can you have it that way? We have SOGs that describe unit responsibilities but they are just that, GUIDLINES. You need flexability.

    I'll give you an example of why we dont want units just showing up and doing things. First due engine arrives and starts the attack. There is a hydrant right in front so they have a water supply. Second in is a squad (heavy rescue). Since the truck is still enrout, the squad is assingned forced entry and horizontal ventilation. Truck arrives third due. Now in this situation, per our SOGs, RIG (RIT) needs to be established, so this is given to the truck by the IC.

    Its all about flexability and not "tying the hands" of the IC.
    So, if your crews aren't using guidelines to determine what they do when they initially arrive, AND they aren't contacting or being contacted by the IC for assignment, what do your people do when they show up on scene? I know you said in an earlier post that the first unit with a pump pulls a line; after that, what do the other arriving units do?

    You're right in that no two fire scenes are exactly the same. But I'd bet in your district, as in others that have been studied, that it roughly breaks down to the 90/10 ratio: ninety percent of your calls are run-of-the-mill incidents, and the other ten are WAY out there.
    So where I am -- and in most other places I've seen -- procedures/guidelines are written to cover initial actions for those ninety percent. The IC and the IC alone has the ability to determine if crews need to deviate from those procedures. And there's your flexibility: the IC, with his years of experience and responsibility, gives the GO to do something out-of-the-ordinary if it's needed.

    In my area, rescues operate as truck companies for working fires by procedure anyway. And an additional company is requested for RIT by the initial arriving unit upon finding an IDLH atmosphere. Again, it's all in our books. So we accomplish the same thing you do, almost the same way, and we do it because we know our initial assignments before we even show up.

    "Set in stone" can certainly get people in trouble. Usually that trouble arises when folks don't follow those rules set in stone.

    As for "tying the hands" of the IC, we look at it in a completely different way than you. Companies following procedures keep the IC from micromanaging, and the IC is then allowed to focus on the bigger picture rather than the individual actions of one crew. If atypical tactics are required, the IC can still utilize those at his discretion. The IC doesn't become a SuperCaptain -- he controls the incident, and the company officers keep the individual companies going by following procedural guidance unless directed otherwise by the IC.

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    Ranahan, your saying that you know your fireground responsibilities before you get to the scene based upon the type of company your assigned and tried and true operating procedures? What a concept.

    Your saying that the IC manages the scene and NOT specific companies actions and how they achieve their tactical objectives? I don't believe it, another far out concept.

    Ranahan, seriously, I agree with you. Why is it so hard for some to understand this?
    Last edited by STATION2; 04-16-2005 at 04:25 PM.
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    OK, time out. From reading the posts here Im either not explaining myself very well or some are not understanding what Im saying.

    We HAVE SOG's for company assignments and responsabilities that we follow. The point Im trying to get accross is that while our companys know company responsibilities ahead of time, we dont want them showing up and doing things whithout going through the IC, even if its just to confirm the assignment. That is except for givens like first due engine pulling a line, second due providing water supple.

    Its not as complicated as it sounds, and I certainly dont see it as "micro-managing" by the IC. As an example, here is what our radio traffic might sound like...

    -E41 on scene, smoke showing side so & so. E41 will be makeing an (interior/exterior) attack.

    -E32 at the hydrant, will be laying in.

    -D35 on scene in command.

    -T48 on scene side so & so. (at this point, T48 has many options, assist with forced entry, go interior for a search, start PPV, ladder the roof, pull another line and so on, that all fit under first due truck. BUT, they wait for an order from the IC.)

    -Command T48, we have a report of a child inside.

    -T48 understood, interior search.

    -E27 on scene, will be setting up RIG (RIT) side so & so.

    -S18 on scene staged 1st street & 5th ave. (Here again, the squad has many options)

    -Command S18, into the scene and set up PPV side so & so

    -S18 understood.


    WOW, that sure was complicated...

    Now, if thats what you call micro-managing, so be it. We call it flexability. And you will also notice, not much radio traffic. The IC doesnt even need to respond to several of the units (laying a line, setting up RIG). It really is that simple. All units followed the SOGs as written.

    Now HERE IS MY POINT. We dont want the truck arriving, and deciding on there own to ladder the roof, or the squad to set up down the street to fill bottles. We would call that freelancing, and thats what I meant when I said it in an earlier post. I am aware thats how many departments do it. If yours does fine, glad it works for you. We choose not too, and it works for us.
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    Originally posted by Dave1983
    OK, time out. From reading the posts here Im either not explaining myself very well or some are not understanding what Im saying.

    further explanation follows...
    Dave, we do roughly the same activities mentioned in your explanation, but we do so under the guidance of our procedures. We inform the IC by radio of major tasks we're undertaking and significant findings, but there's no waiting for the IC to provide instruction UNLESS you're assigned to report to staging.

    For instance, in your explanation T48 pulls up and waits for assignment. In this area, the truck wouldn't do that. Assuming that this is an SFD, under our procedures truck crew would split up. Inside team would force entry (not necessary if engine had already done so) and begin search procedures. Outside team would ladder for rescue/egress as appropriate and perform horizontal ventilation. We don't have to wait on the IC, who may already have plenty on his plate...or who might not even be on scene yet, to tell us where to go.
    (And truck would NEVER pull an attack line from the engine on an SFD here, 'cept in the most grave of circumstances.)

    Now HERE IS MY POINT. We dont want the truck arriving, and deciding on there own to ladder the roof, or the squad to set up down the street to fill bottles. We would call that freelancing, and thats what I meant when I said it in an earlier post. I am aware thats how many departments do it. If yours does fine, glad it works for you. We choose not too, and it works for us.
    We don't want units deciding what they should do on their own either. So we have it spelled out in black and white. When there is cause to deviate from the procedure, the decision is made by the IC to do so...and if he's not on scene, company officers make those decisions -- which rarely happens because our procedures work pretty damn well.

    Here, freelancing is what members or companies do when they don't perform the tasks that the procedures call for them to do. If a truck crew or someone from the truck ends up performing attack without being specifically assigned there by IC for some reason, then that's freelancing. And we don't tolerate that.
    But at arrival, we already know the mission ahead, and we go at it unless we receive specific direction otherwise. That's not freelancing in my book, and I don't think you'll find it called such by many others either.

    Like I said earlier, and in deference to what you said as well, if you guys can make a good effort by using the "call for orders" scheme, then that's good. But what works for us with more dependability and efficiency is knowing our assignments BEFORE we arrive, and that approach seems to be far more prevalent among strong-performing departments than the one you're mentioning. The procedures and guidelines may not cover every possibility, but I haven't seen many that they don't work for.

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    I understand how you do things, but the reason we dont is like I said earlier. No two fires are the same, so having "black & white" assignments just dont fly here. The world is not "black & white', but a million shades of grey Thats why our SOG's are limited to apparatus positioning and basic operations, like procedures/equipment for roof ventilation.

    Besides, the way it sounds, our areas operate in very different ways. We would only split a crew in an extreem case. Certainly not to for routine operations. If the truck is going to vent, then the whole truck crew vents. If its a search, the whole crew searches.

    Also, we have an IC in place before any operations are started. Most times, this is the officer of the first due rig, untill another company or the DC arrives. So there is always someone to direct operations.

    Keep in mind, Im not talking about the IC giving explinations on how they want things done. Its as simple as when the truck reports on scene, the IC says which type of vent he wants or some other task.

    -T48 on scene side "B"
    -Command T48, top vent.
    -(T48) Understood.

    Thats it. Takes all of 5 seconds. Truck goes to work on the roof per SOGs. The IC doesnt tell them HOW to vent. And again, we dont "call" for orders, thats a no-no. They are given by the IC at the proper time, based on the his/her assesment of the overall situation. Thats why we pay them the big bucks
    Last edited by Dave1983; 04-17-2005 at 03:15 PM.
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    To save Larry's co-payment for his headache medicine and doctor's visits from banging his head so much, no more debate on who does what from me, just agreement with the whatever works in your area statements.

    Just a few pics of a pretty stacked quint, complete with 188' of ground ladders, 2000gpm pump, 500 gallon tank. Since the ground ladder question came up and some said you can't get that much on one.

    http://www.penndelfire.com/apparatus.asp?aid=l8

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    Originally posted by BC79er
    To save Larry's co-payment for his headache medicine and doctor's visits from banging his head so much, no more debate on who does what from me, just agreement with the whatever works in your area statements.

    Just a few pics of a pretty stacked quint, complete with 188' of ground ladders, 2000gpm pump, 500 gallon tank. Since the ground ladder question came up and some said you can't get that much on one.

    http://www.penndelfire.com/apparatus.asp?aid=l8
    Sounds good. I was looking for the Motrin myself

    Nice rig, but laundry soap and trash cans? Thats a first for me.
    And did you check out that rescue? Talk about 10 lbs of sh** in a 5lb bag
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    Funny, that's the same line as used as the subject email when I sent the rescue pics out. That's not the department I ran with but same county, pretty much the same mentality. Our trucks up there were the same way, couldn't see the back wall of the compartment. They run wreck on some major roads, lots of 18 wheeler traffic, have to be loaded for bear. All departments in Bucks are still fully volunteer, nearly everyone sends a decent amount of their guys for all of the rescue stuff: heavy vehicle, trench, confined, etc, etc. No sense in having the stuff and not being able to use it, and no sense in not being able to handle all of the types of calls that could come in.

    The real laundry soap reason escapes me, but we used to carry some too. Small spills, maybe? Cheaper than Petro-clean or any of those type of spill control/cleanup items.

    The trash cans are for overhaul. Shovel the stuff into the can, take it outside and dump it in the wetdown pile. Thought that was a widely used practice. We had trash cans and buckets on our truck for that.

    The buckets came in handy for the occasional party at someone's house, fit a keg with plenty of room for ice.

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    Is it really laundry soap? We use old kitty litter bins for oil dry, I would assume the very large detergent bottles could be used for the same thing.

    We use old washtub type things for overhaul, but I can see the merit of the larger metal garbage cans.

    I will give them one thing - the compartments appear to be well laid out and the well labelled.

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    The soap is for the crew of the quint so when they get back they can wash which ever shirt they were wearing. If they were the Engine Co. on the run, they can wash it and make it clean for the next run and vice versa if they were the Truck Co. That way when they get their orders via radio, they can be wearing the right shirt for the assignment. LOL.

    Just kidding guys.

    As for the ground ladder compliment, I never said it couldn't be that much. I just said that often times it is not.

    Other than that, its a damn nice rig. Even if it is a Pierce Lance with a steel aerial but thats for another thread. Who would buy a Pierce Lance by choice? Oh, uh sorry Brian. LOL. Or even a Pierce Dash? Oh darn it, I did it again. Sorry again Brian. LOL.

    Be safe guys, I really enjoyed the point and counterpoint of this thread. Feel free to keep it going. I learn a little everytime, no matter if its different.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Shhhh....they'll take your children if you talk bad about Pierce.

    Shhhhhh....

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    Why would they need to wash the engine shirt? Everyone knows only truck guys get dirty on a fireground while doing the real work.

    Depending on your kids, maybe you want them taken. Beats having to call 911 because your kids out of control...

    Now that Pierce has the 75' aluminum, and probably the 105' not far behind, not too much reason to stay with E-One now is there? I mean after all, why get told what cab you have to buy with a certain aerial device when you can pick any one in the line? Oh yeah, wouldn't want to do that, no sense in having choices or being comfortable in one of those large Lance or Quantum cabs....

    Whoops! Tripped over the dead horse while waving my flag. Sorry.

    One question: why isn't there this debate about rescue-pumpers? I mean after all, it's a two-hatted truck isn't it? FDNY has those in the form of Squads, other cities do the same. Squads/Rescue companies act like truck companies when needed, why no argument about only staffing those with a crew of 4 when they might have to drag hose and perform truck/rescue work on a fire? Don't they change jobs depending on when they arrive too? Aren't they being asked to perform the jobs of two companies? Enquiring minds want to know. Well, I do anyway.

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    Originally posted by BC79er
    One question: why isn't there this debate about rescue-pumpers? I mean after all, it's a two-hatted truck isn't it? FDNY has those in the form of Squads, other cities do the same. Squads/Rescue companies act like truck companies when needed, why no argument about only staffing those with a crew of 4 when they might have to drag hose and perform truck/rescue work on a fire? Don't they change jobs depending on when they arrive too? Aren't they being asked to perform the jobs of two companies? Enquiring minds want to know. Well, I do anyway.
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    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Ah yes, Aerial Envy. I remember Freud did publish some works on that subject.

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    I actually ran with that company for a few months and found that quint to be by far the best set up so far. Throughout the lower part of our county quints and rescue pumpers are alot more common then the central and upper ends. If you look at the website that house has a pump on everything which is something I found intersting when I came to realize why. Like BC79 said down here we run the PA turnpike, I95, Route 1 and all sorts of accident prone roads where a rescue pumper is best.

    I bet as much as I'm into having an engine to supply your ladder and a non-quint company when they had a two alarm apartment fire it sure came in handly for that quint to have its pump not to mention most of the engines were caught up laying 3000 ft of 5in.
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