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  1. #41
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    Dave,

    Same old tired argumant: I have seen it first hand and its true. Notice I prefaced the comment by saying for large departments. Too many of them have bought quints thinking they can reduce overall staffing and/or the number of companies they have by using them. Richmond, St. Louis, LACoFD, etc. Check their staffing on the rigs and/or the number of quints they have compared to the number of traditional Engine Co.'s and Truck Co.'s they had pre-quint. The numbers are not the same.

    1) Tell that to the cities that combine the Engine Co. and Truck Co. from the same quarters into a Quint Co. with a 4 person crew. You can't tell me the district is receiving the same level of protection with a 4 person crew that it recieved with an 8 person crew and two companies. The math doesn't add up.

    2) Read my previous number #5. I say the same thing. They can only function one way or the other. The problem is when cities try to run them and have them do both.

    3) I know departments that run them and they can't put their LDH on the ground around a corner, or even in a straight line, without the hose catching on a step, grab rail, turntable access ladder or some other body component and either breaking whatever it hung up on or not laying at all.

    4) As Bones 42 said, and you echoed, that is what I am saying in my original #5 post. Use them one way or another, not both. However, the issue with the scenario mentioned is: The Quint Co. comes in first, they stretch a line and start suppression functions. The Engine Co. comes in, drops its crew, and the rig goes to the plug while reverse laying or they lay coming in from the plug, either way. No problem, BUT. How many of those Engine Co.'s will now stretch an additional handline and the BASIC truck work is overlooked and done later or not at all? Alot of them, I have seen it first hand. Alot of the departments that use quints say this happens, the quints use diminish their Truck Co. skills over time. This may not be every quint department, but alot of those that due use them are saying this. Now factor in energy efficient windows and doors, "tighter" building construction, more furnishings inside being petrolium product based and the need for Truck Co. work is even more important and needs to be done quicker to prevent rapid fire spread, flashovers (Which are increasing), injury to our Brothers and Sisters and worse. And how about the ability to advance the line quicker and get water on the fire? It is always going to be quicker for the Engine Co. to stretch, locate and get water on the fire when they have timely and effective ventilation. Don't you agree? The search for occupants needs to be done quicker for the above reasons and timely ventilation gives them a better chance of survival by improving the atmosphere they are in. Does any of this make sense? I guess you could say a quint is like a dull pocket knife. It'll still work when you need to cut something, it just takes longer and its not as efficient.

    Just some thoughts.
    Last edited by STATION2; 04-13-2005 at 09:27 AM.
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  2. #42
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Does any of this make sense?
    Yes, it sounds like guys are failing to do their job, failing to be trained on their job.

    Doesn't sound like a problem with a Quint, more like a problem with the guys doing their jobs. Don't blame a truck for guys not doing their jobs.
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  3. #43
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    I was going to say true but not true in the case of 4 FF quints, but in said case, it should be the engine company doing whatever the quint isn't. So if the quint is going to be the truck company, one ought to have enough sense to know where the engine company is coming from and how far out they are. If they're within a minute, the quint goes into truck mode, ladder and ventilate the building, let the engine company pull the line from whichever truck they want to after they lay the line. Just because the quint has the pump and preconnects doesn't mean they have to get used every time and tie the two trucks down to the scene. Let the preconnects come of the engine if they're laying the line, no sense in the engine company pulling a supply to the quint just to pull their lines off to make it look good.

    And if the engine company isn't close, and the quint crew goes into engine ops, then they should be laying their own line, and the 2nd apparatus to the scene takes truck ops.

    Like Bones said, it's about training. If your first two apparatus crews to the scene are needed for engine ops to pull the 2nd line, it won't matter if the truck company has a pump or not. It takes an officer knowing what is needed and knowing where their resources are to put the crews where they need to be. And if the engine company is 2nd in, and they grab a nozzle instead of ventilating, then that's a leadership and discipline issue, and has nothing to do with the ladder company having a pump on the truck. Roof ventilation is basic FF ops, anyone should be able to do it.

  4. #44
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    1st of all, allow me to clarify my position. I believe that quints fit a purpose in small to medium cities when they are run as trucks with the capability to generate their own water for their master streams or when they are run as engines with an elevated master stream capability. NOT when they are expected to be the cure all for the fire service budget cuts.

    Now, on with the banter,

    I'm hearing the same thing over and over again. Its not the trucks fault, its not the trucks fault. Blame training, blame the guys, blame anything but the TQC/Quints.

    The issue of district coverage is still not being address by any of the quints proponents.

    The issue of fewer fire fighters on the box alarm is not being addressed.

    The issue of the box alarm companies coming from further away is not being addressed.

    The issue of departments who comply with 2 in/2 out having to stand in the street while waiting for their next in company is not being addressed. (And the P/O doesn't count as his job is not one that can be left for R.I.T. duties should they be needed).

    The issue of having to buy a quint that is totally massive just to accomodate all the engine/truck/rescue equipment that departments want on them isn't being addressed. And then when they get it in service its weight restricted on bridges, to tall for tunnels and overpasses and that is to long for road features at intersections.

    Its easy to say the guys aren't trained, they aren't doing there jobs, they want it to fail, etc. Its another to admit that the quint isn't the fullproof method to equip a fire department. It is only a tool in the great toolbox of the company officer and the IC. No matter how you cut it, you still need the guys/gals on the rig to do the job and they need to arrive on the scene in a timely fashion.

    How about compartment space? Unlike the above situation, when departments do buy one that fits their station, bridges, tunnels and roadways instead of the huge-do-all quint, what do they leave off? I like the 75' quints that departments buy as there only aerial device. There is no way in the world that you can say that you have enough room for all the engine and truck equipment on the rig. Something is always left off, put in a room, on another vehicle, or just discarded as "We never use that anyway".

    Oh well, I'll see you guys on the big one when the quints are strapped, the real trucks are flowing water and everyone is scratching their heads wondering what just happened.
    Last edited by STATION2; 04-13-2005 at 07:10 PM.
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  5. #45
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Well, this is getting us no place fast Sort of like the ever poular fog vs solid theme.

    Just understand where Im comming from. While I dont work for a big department, I work in a county that basicly operates as one. 62 paid stations with the same SOG's and automatic mutual aid. Except for one or two exceptions, we have always been an all quint county (at least since I started in '83). They are the way of life here.

    Too us, an aerial without a pump makes absolutly no sense. The exeptions are the 3 non-quint aerials in the county, which are set up as part of the county wide TRT, and carrys LOADs of TRT equipment.

    We run our quints as ladder companys, and they are dispatched with three engine companys on first alarms. IF the quint happens to make it on scene before an engine, it positions for aerial opps, and then a line is pulled and a fire attack initiated. The first engine to arrive would handle water supply, and the second would assume truck company opps with the equipment from the quint.

    We can do this as everyone is cross trained, and well. We also do not conduct what could be considered normal engine/truck company opps. We are not set up strictly for engines to pull lines while truckies force doors and do searches.

    All companies work together, and each is assigned a task based on what needs to be done at the time, not by the type of apparatus your on. Freelancing is prohibited. Just because your on a truck, doesnt mean as soon as the rig stops your out poping doors and breaking windows. You wait for an assignment. The only given is that whatever rig with a pump arrives first, they will pull a line.

    Right or wrong, its how its done here. And I think we do a preety good job. Not a lot of "parking lots"
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  6. #46
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    Dave, I'm not going to get into it with you over the quint thing...I think we both know where both of our feelings lay.

    However the description of where you work sounds very, very similar to where I worked before. And from those expereinces I always found in a system where someone (Batt Chief, etc.) more or less re-writes firefighting procedures on the spot by assinging companines and men as he sees fit at that moment that things get forgotten...like search and adequate personell with tools to expose hidden fire. Consistancy in operations was seldom seen and also varried greatly shift to shift. At 3 in the morning one chief would do xyz and the next day a chief would have the companies do zyx at basicly the same fire...many times almost forgeting about search untill multiple lines were in place...even when there were reported trapped victims!

    Often we likened it to a pick-up football game at the local park where the plays were all outlined by the QB on the spot with no playbook and little preperation.

    How is it you guys avoid this type of occurance? I honestly want to know as this was always a problem where I had worked.

    Also I'm curious as to what you meant by the following? I don't know any dept that allows freelancing...do you?

    Freelancing is prohibited. Just because your on a truck, doesnt mean as soon as the rig stops your out poping doors and breaking windows. You wait for an assignment.
    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 04-13-2005 at 10:05 PM.

  7. #47
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    How is it you guys avoid this type of occurance? I honestly want to know as this was always a problem where I had worked.
    I'll give my experience on it from yesterday's actions. Oddly enough, we were dispatched for 2 structure fires yesterday, neither of which was much at all.

    1st call, we were assigned first due truck en route. I turned to my guys and informed them we were assigned as such. I, as officer, grabbed TIC, Pry-Axe, radio. Guy behind me grabbed irons, behind him was can. Other 2 jump seats were OV and roof, they grabbed a ladder and went up to check the roof as that was where the fire was.

    2nd call, same crew, we were assigned first due engine this time. I, again, grabbed TIC, pry-axe, radio. Guy behind me was backup, behind him was nozzle. Other side had control and doorman.

    We have spent the time to teach/learn/drill the assignments so everyone on the trucks knows what jobs there are to do based on our engine/truck assignment. I don't have a "true" ladder and have yet to really need one. My first out of my house is a 50' Teleboom. Other house runs a 75' Snorkle (useless) as second out. We have nothing over 35' in town except for the high school, and the 50' Teleboom reaches it's top floor without problem (been there, tried that).

    I will admit, the Snorkle is going to be replaced by a 100' TL Quint, which I think is way overkill for what we need, but that's what was decided on by the majority. We may change our procedure when (if) that ever actually shows up, we'll see.

    Our setup may not work for everyone, but it works for us.
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  8. #48
    Forum Member FFTide's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Bones42

    I will admit, the Snorkle is going to be replaced by a 100' TL Quint, which I think is way overkill for what we need, but that's what was decided on by the majority. We may change our procedure when (if) that ever actually shows up, we'll see.
    Wow Bones that IS major overkill. I know your area well and I don't see that 100'TL maneuvering well, especially when set up. You guys would do much better with a 75' aerial, no?

    I really like how you have riding assignments (or so it sounds). We run our quint very similar (minus riding assignments because you don't know what you're going to get). We run the quint as a truck 80% of the time. Unless we only get enough guys during the daytime to run 1 truck we'll take the quint, not the engine. Basically you are truck duties unless otherwise instructed.

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  9. #49
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    You guys would do much better with a 75' aerial, no?
    It gets better. We were originally going with an 85', pretty much same setup just everything a little bit smaller. With the 100', the building has to be modified so it will fit. 85' was no problem. We had a similar truck here, wouldn't let the operator extend it more than a 85' would and it still reached everything we needed. It's going to be large, but it will make it around town. We also had a similar 100' here that we rode around in to see it's maneuverability(sp?). It'll be interesting.
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  10. #50
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    Bones,

    1st call, we were assigned first due truck en route. I turned to my guys and informed them we were assigned as such. I, as officer, grabbed TIC, Pry-Axe, radio. Guy behind me grabbed irons, behind him was can. Other 2 jump seats were OV and roof, they grabbed a ladder and went up to check the roof as that was where the fire was.
    2nd call, same crew, we were assigned first due engine this time. I, again, grabbed TIC, pry-axe, radio. Guy behind me was backup, behind him was nozzle. Other side had control and doorman.
    That makes alot of sense to have pre-assinged duties for the members so that when assigned in route (engine, ladder or whatever) you arrive and know that Fireman Blue is the Back-Up man or Roof man or whatever.

    That means you have two levels of pre-desination... A company level riding possition for all members and a company designation (Engine 123 will be operating at this box as an Engine(or ladder))

    That would have probably helped in many of our situations where we would be in room with two handlines and 1 axe and no hooks to expose the fire in the cockloft. Or where no one was back feeding hose to advancing nozzle teams.

    My question was more in regards to how someone who from what it sounds operates in a system much like what I was formerly accustomed to where there are NO company assignments and from the way I read it a chief decides what each and every individual does when they arrive based on what that chief feels should be done...this would mean there is little operation consistancy, predictablity or coordination. Who is bringing hooks or who is bringing a halligan or a saw to the roof etc. Who is reponsible for making sure the hoseline is stretched with the correct amount of lengths and doesn't have kinks in it. (Think Cincy LODD).

    That also means you are completely reliant on that chief to remember every thing without having an operation plan for guidance...as in the 1st Lad, quint, 2nd Eng or what have you is responsible for search of the fire floor and these are the tools they should carry. This comes from my personal experience of working under similar circumstances where many thought "it worked OK" when really when one sits back and examines the facts and the actual performance on the fire ground...it isn't as foolproof as one might think.

    Interesting discussion regardless.

    FTM-PTB

  11. #51
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    Or when the 1st due quint arrives and comes in as the Engine Co. The 2nd due comes in and lays the supply line, and then stretches another attack line. The 3rd due comes in and is the R.I.T. The 4th due comes in, and oh yeah, lets make them the Truck Co. Nevermind that the guys on the 4th due rig have only seen the quint at the shop, or during the district meetings, go ahead and operate it anyway. It doesn't matter if you have been assigned to an Engine Co. for the last 5 years and all you know about truck work is what you see on television, on this fire run on up and play like your a truck crew, you can do it. You guys kill me with the company role swapping and rig trading on scenes. We take an already responsibility laden profession and add additional hoops to jump through just for the sake of a certain type of apparatus being bought ad the refusal to use it one way or another everyday.

    And whats with the "assigning" of company type via radio? You are either an Engine Co. or a Truck Co. from time of dispatch to in service, nothing changes because someone says so on the radio. Your apparatus is either fully equipped for one or the other. If you can do that why can't you designate the quint as the tanker for the box? Nevermind it only has a 300gwt because its a quint, lets make them the tanker because we need one on this incident and we can swap company types at our leisure. I know I am playing devils advocate and being difficult, but why add more and more things to remember when doing our jobs? I know why, silly me, your not doing that and its just a simple matter of, guess what? Blame the guys on the rigs. The guys aren't trained, they want it to fail, the guys aren't putting out and doing their jobs, they need more training, blah, blah, blah.

    If the rig is a quint, it is built to do both, but we don't actually staff it to do both when they are staffed with half as many as needed to do BOTH types of work. The cities/administrators win on both fronts. They combine an engine and truck, say it can do BOTH types of work but then only staff it for one type of work.

    And what about the NFPA not helping matters? If a Truck Co. requires 118' or so of ground ladders, why would a "Quint" need only 88' of ground ladders? Hmmmm. Because the committee (Read both manufacturers and administrators) know that most departments want a more compact rig, there in fad now, and not everything from both an Engine Co. and Truck Co. is gonna fit, so lets shave the ground ladders down. Yeah, thats the ticket.

    And what about booster tank size? A quint, like a Class A pumper now, only needs a 300 gallon booster tank. The targeted fire flow from a handline, atleast where I come from, is 200gpm. That means that once started, that gives a bare bones quint 1-1/2 minutes of water. Hmmm. Sounds good enough. LOL. Yeah right.

    Now I now what my hecklers are going to say, "Spec more ground ladders, spec a bigger booster tank, etc." Now you have gone from a single axle 75' quint that meets station, road, bridge and overhead clearance requirments to a tandem axle monster that is needed to accomodate all the "beefed up" components and equipment to make it truley functional as both but is still NOT staffed to do so.

    I'll say it again, a quint needs to be run as either a Truck Co. that can generate its own water supply for its own master streams OR an Engine Co. that has its own elevated master stream capability. Pretty simple. They have the same basic function on the every run they make, Engine Co. or Truck Co., not the interchangable concept based upon the whim of a radio transmission.

    Oh well, my head is bleeding from beating it against this wall. LOL. Just have the super quint reverse lay back from the 1st due engine so a real truck can have the front and the "toy truck" is out of the way at the end of the block.
    Last edited by STATION2; 04-14-2005 at 11:22 PM.
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  12. #52
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    FFFRED, I wasnt looking to start a debate on tactics. I just wanted to give the brothers a little background on how we operate and why quints work for us. Also to dispell some of the rumors about quints, like they only work for small departments or in rural areas. We are neither and we use quints.

    However, let me say that while our situation may sound like the place you used to work, I can assure you we have none of the issues you mentioned. The way I read his post, we operate exactly like Bones42. We dont have assignments per seat on the rig. On one call, you may have the nozzle, next call a K-12. This is decided by the CO depending on what assigment he recives from the IC.

    What I meant by the DC (IC) gives assignments, is just cause your a truck, dont assume your going to do truck work. You may get assingned RIG (RIT) or some other task.

    By "freelancing" I meant we dont have situations where the truck would arrive and the the crew would stat doing truck work on there own. Doing that here would be considered "freelancing". I understand this is how some places operate and if it works for them, great. Keep up the good work! I take it from your post that "freelancing" means something else to you. Cool! What you call a Rescue we call a Squad. Different area, different terms.

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  13. #53
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    there are NO company assignments and from the way I read it a chief decides what each and every individual does when they arrive based on what that chief feels should be done
    Been there, done that. Moved on to better ways. We used to operate in a fashion similar to that and yes, lots of things were missed or not addressed as quickly as they should have been. Took a while, but we "kept an open mind" and tried different things. It's amazing when people stop banging their heads on walls fighting changes and actually give them a try.

    It won't work for everyone, neither will Quints.
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  14. #54
    unrepentant fool ranahan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dave1983
    By "freelancing" I meant we dont have situations where the truck would arrive and the the crew would stat doing truck work on there own. Doing that here would be considered "freelancing".
    Funny...most places I've been, this would be called "following SOPs" or "following SOGs."
    It just seems to me that the only way TQC/quints will ever work properly is if the procedures are set in stone, and that every officer knows those procedures by heart. Otherwise, the arriving IC will never know for sure what those guys are in the middle of when he shows up! And why should the quint's officer tie up the radio and take up the incoming chief's time by requesting an assignment, when everything could be laid out already? And that way, everyone knows what the quint will be doing, even if they couldn't hear the radio transmissions.

    Someone already said it, but I'm saying it again: quints should simply be used as trucks that can manage the water supply for their aerial-mounted master stream.

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    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ranahan


    Funny...most places I've been, this would be called "following SOPs" or "following SOGs."
    It just seems to me that the only way TQC/quints will ever work properly is if the procedures are set in stone, and that every officer knows those procedures by heart. Otherwise, the arriving IC will never know for sure what those guys are in the middle of when he shows up! And why should the quint's officer tie up the radio and take up the incoming chief's time by requesting an assignment, when everything could be laid out already? And that way, everyone knows what the quint will be doing, even if they couldn't hear the radio transmissions.

    Someone already said it, but I'm saying it again: quints should simply be used as trucks that can manage the water supply for their aerial-mounted master stream.
    The Co's do not call the IC and ask for assignments. This is prohibited for the exact reason you mentioned.

    Sorry, but "set in stone" gets people in trouble. No two fire scenes are the same, so how can you have it that way? We have SOGs that describe unit responsibilities but they are just that, GUIDLINES. You need flexability.

    I'll give you an example of why we dont want units just showing up and doing things. First due engine arrives and starts the attack. There is a hydrant right in front so they have a water supply. Second in is a squad (heavy rescue). Since the truck is still enrout, the squad is assingned forced entry and horizontal ventilation. Truck arrives third due. Now in this situation, per our SOGs, RIG (RIT) needs to be established, so this is given to the truck by the IC.

    Its all about flexability and not "tying the hands" of the IC.
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    I'm not seeing how truck work gets forgotten just because there's a pump on the truck, or how a quint is manned. If the orders for the 2nd due piece of apparatus is a 2nd interior line, or an exposure line, or search and rescue, it doesn't matter whether the 2nd in piece is a quint, ladder, or engine. Same with the 3rd piece. If the 2nd piece's manning goes handline or exposure line, the 3rd piece's takes truck work if that's the next priority to the IC. I rode a truck company for the first 7 years in the service, and we made location several times where we didn't do truck work. Plenty of times we ended up doing engine work because that's what was needed for the second due crew. It depends on sizeup and what the first two jobs needed to be done were. Not what truck shows up when. The only person that always thinks truck work is the chauffer since anything with an aerial always gets staged like a truck company.

    I do agree unless you put 8 guys on a quint it won't be a combo engine/truck. No argument there, nothing works without manpower.

    But the 2nd underlying issue I keep reading is that without a pump on it, the truck work gets missed. That's poor training. Whether it be the officer not knowing who's arriving and giving them the right assignments, or the crews not knowing where they should be, it's training. Because as I said above, you're not always going to be pulling up on scene and performing the work that the stereotypical apparatus companies do. I understand the argument that you just want the crews to not have to think about what they're going to do when they pull up but I think that ought to be taken as an insult to the intelligence of the crews, that they can't learn both jobs, or do more than one company's tasks well, or adapt to a changing environment. Not being able to adapt to change is a sure way to become extinct, it's been happening for years in the animal and plant world.

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    BC79er, my point on the matter of the crews being "instinctual" if you will, is not a slam against their ability to do different company tasks, to not be able to change to the environment, or anything like that. My point was that the quint company, and people who are assigned to them regularly without correct staffing and that are used how they have been described (Engine Co. this run, Truck Co. the next) is playing into the Jack of all trades and Masters of none mindset. I can take the best company officer, the best E/O and the 2 best fire fighters I know and put them on an Engine Co. for 6 months and they will kick %$@ and handle the situation. I can take the same guys and put them on a Truck Co. for 6 months and have the same results. Put them on a quint company whose fireground role changes from run to run, with varying responsibilities for each type, is begging for diminished performance on the fireground. Its more complex than an Engine Co. stretches the line and squirts water on the fire while the Truck Co. forces the doors, searches the building and puts a hole in the roof.

    As many of you know (And forgot if you ride on a quint, LOL), Truck Co. responsibilities are, in no particular order: 1) Forcible Entry 2) Search 3) Ventilation and 4) Salvage and Overhaul. Of these, the first 3 are the most important.

    1) Forcible Entry: Multiple door types, multiple lock systems and types, etc. make the material to cover in order to become proficient that much more time consuming and takes many, many fires of doing it to become good at it.

    2) Search: Multiple types of structures, floor plans and interior design trends make the art of effective searches more difficult and time consuming to become good at. The ability to learn how the fire is extending while your on your knees in a pitch black bedroom can only be learned by doing it over and over again. To know oh yeah, in these types of homes, the basement doors are on the A/C corner or the exterior basement exntrance is on Side C is invaluable when the $#%@ hits the fan at 03:00hrs.

    3) Ventilation: The ability to see enough fires in the same positon each time is needed to allow enough experience to decide if the roof needs to be opened on this fire or is the fire not on the top floor and opening the roof is a waste when I need to be taking the rear windows on the floor below the top floor which is the fire floor. The ability to read a building from a needed ventilation standpoint can't be learned from a book, by watching a video or doing it every once and a while. There is an art to quick and effective ventilation that can't be learned by being an engine guy one day or one run and a truck guy the next. You learn best with repetitive experience doing the same tasks and gaining the valuable knowledge of, on these types of homes I know that .......

    All of it matters, why create a situation where your fire fighters are going to stare at the building like a cow at a new gate when you give them different responsibilities everyother run?

    Oh well, again, I need somemore bandages, my head is bleeding from striking it against the wall one more time. I'll see you guys on the big one, when the quints are overwhelmed and understaffed and the real trucks are saving the day with crews who know how to be truck guys. LOL.
    Last edited by STATION2; 04-15-2005 at 02:35 PM.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

  18. #58
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    When the engine company gets on scene first, do they just stand around and wait for the truck company to show up and open the door?

    Does the guy on the nozzle not worry about building layout, where a fire is extending, where exit doors and windows are?

    Does the guy on the nozzle not worry about what ventilation is being done? Does he just blindly shoot water and that's it?

    Damn, again, I thought that was all part of firefighting. Silly me.


    Let's get these guys who don't know forcible entry, don't know building construction, don't know fire behavior, and don't know ventilation and put them on an engine all the time so they don't get hurt, I mean, geez, they might learn something.

    Sorry, this has been (and I hope it continues) a good discussion and I let my sarcastic side show a little, but almost everything I'm seeing blamed on Quints is still looking like training issues to me.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Put them on a quint company whose fireground role changes from run to run, with varying responsibilities for each type, is begging for diminished performance on the fireground.
    Engine roles vary from run to run. Are they 1st in and attacking, 2nd due and doing a reverse lay, 3rd in and taking side C, 4th in and taking orders for coffee and donuts? RIT? Search? Sometimes the first in engine does search or ventilation because that's what's needed first.

    Truck roles vary from run to run. Sometimes everyone is doing search, the next time everyone is on the roof for a trench cut, the time after that they're RIT, the time after that they're humping hose on a garden style apartment. Truck roles change from fire to fire.

    Firefighters are jacks of all trades. The way you're making it sound you can't take anyone that normally runs truck company and put them on an OT shift on an engine because they wouldn't be proficient enough to do the job.

    Tehc Rescue and Hazmat, yeah, that's above and beyond, those guys have enough to worry about considering the hours of classes they need to take to keep their certs current, which is why so many don't run on fires. But you should be able to take any firefighter and put them on any apparatus at any time and have them perform any job on the fireground with competency the job. If they can't do that, then they weren't trained properly.

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    I am now standing on my soap box and speaking in a louder tone of voice so that my statement is not taken out of context. LOL.

    The ability for fire fighters to adapt is a given. We have been doing more with less forever, and have become quite adapt at it. However, I am against fire departments themselves encouraging this continued behavior for the sake of the current apparatus fad.

    I am a big believer in fire fighters being better at some things than others. You build off of your crews strengths and use them together as a team to help the team succeed. Plain and simple. Why degrade, if even a little, the strengths of the crew my making them try to cover 6 bases when they could cover just 3? Its not that they can't, but why do it? Does it better the fireground operations? No. Does it better fire fighter safety? No. Does it increase the flexibility of the IC? No, because your gonna have the negative effects of pluging and playing with the companies as they arrive.

    Brian, you said the Engine Co. role changes from run to run. In your own example, 3 of the scenarios mentioned include a common denominator of all Engine Co.'s - hose and water.

    Again with the Truck Co. example - 3 of those scenarios mentioned are those commonly done by Truck Co.'s - Search, Ventilation and RIT.

    As for the Tech Rescue crews, maybe and maybe not. Alot of these guys end up at fires on the multiple alarm assignment and are assigned what role? R.I.T. This for the crew that hasn't been in a fire building in months or longer. But thats another thread.

    Back to the lack of training angle as put forth on here, lets look at departments that uses companies on the fireground based upon their company type: FDNY, Chicago, Boston, etc.

    Are they not trained because they are assigned to Truck Co.'s? Are you saying, because I am not, that when they pick up OT on the Engine Co. that they are not qualified or capable? I think that these guys will tell you that they can do the job just fine but there not doing their normal fireground tasks so they might be a half-step behind or need to take a second longer completing a task. No difference when an Engine Co. guy works OT on the Truck Co. across the floor. Can he do the job? Sure. Is he qualified? You know it. Is he as proficient with a K-12 on the roof of a commercial building with poor visibility as the regular Truck Co. member? Doubt it. Does he know where the vent pipes for the kitchens and bathrooms are going to be located for a queen anne SFD like he would the location of the basement stairs from stretching a line through them time and time before? Probably not.

    Brian, If you ride 1st line on an Engine Co. every shift for 5 years, and your duties are stretching and operating a handline every shift, are you gonna be as proficient with Truck Co. work when assigned on a fill-in or OT on the Truck Co.? No.

    If you drive an Engine Co. every shift for 5 years, and then when you get assigned to operate a quint, lol, or truck are you gonna have to look for the controls instead of knowing by instinct where the controls are? Sure, its human nature. Repetition matters.

    Oh well, I think I am gonna take some aspirin and watch a Third Watch re-run becuase those guys do everything, twice. They must be assigned to a quint. LOL.
    Last edited by STATION2; 04-15-2005 at 09:55 PM.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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