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    and the rescue beached into the courtyard to deck gun the other side of the apartment
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    BC79, if we all bought Pierce, then who would we have to talk bad about? They are the only people who will actually submit a bid for a 100' LT quint with a price-tag of $900,000.00 and expect you to pay that for it. And thats after they tell you "We don't do this, we only do this, can't do that either, that is gonna be an SPQ, etc." LOL. And then back to the Lance cabs. I mean, if your gonna pull with 8 people every run then I understand. But if you don't, why add the wheelbase? Or, why not use the space savings from a shorter length cab (That seats 6) and increase storage capability in the way of compartments in a longer wheelbase isn't an issue?

    As for the whole Rescue Pumper/Squad thing, I'm not biting. My head is still sore. I have to give it some time before I jump into another tit-for-tat. But for the record, FDNY staffs their Squad Co.'s with a total of 6 members so staffing is somewhat of a mute point.

    Oh well, I think I am going to go throw darts at the latest Pierce new deliveries on the wall. LOL.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Post Slightly random yet related thoughts....

    Sorry I was away on a short vacation and missed quite a bit...

    I've noticed bad or good that although this thread has taken some different directions I think there is much learning on all sides, at least I've although baffled, have learned about certain operations in other depts. much different and some similar to where I have worked.

    Also I want to reiterate that I have worked under a system of Engines and Quints where an "IC" decided how to re-write the book on firefighting every time we had one. We had no positions and no pre-designations and when looking at it from a empirical perspective...it wasn't satisfactory in terms of performance, safety or consistency. It has nothing to do with FDNY, Boston, or any other large city FD, it has to do with systems that to me seem to be developed by chiefs who never spent any appreciable amount of time operating at actual fires. JMO

    By "freelancing" I meant we donít have situations where the truck would arrive and they would start doing truck work on their own. Doing that here would be considered "freelancing". I understand this is how some places operate and if it works for them, great. Keep up the good work! I take it from your post that "freelancing" means something else to you. Cool! What you call a Rescue we call a Squad. Different area, different terms.
    Dave, I see where the misunderstanding comes from. Freelancing I thought was a universal term that meant that companies would show up and do whatever the hell they wanted to do. As opposed to doing what is outlined and specified in their training and operational procedures which is far from freelancing.

    I understand how you do things, but the reason we donít is like I said earlier. No two fires are the same, so having "black & white" assignments just donít fly here. The world is not "black & white', but a million shades of grey Thats why our SOG's are limited to apparatus positioning and basic operations, like procedures/equipment for roof ventilation.
    None of my fires are the same either...yet they work smoothly I know many medium and even small depts. that use standard procedures that aren't black and white, but define roles and relationships allowing for flexibility in operations in general types of buildings. Just the same as the Miami Dolphins or LA Raiders have a playbook for most circumstances that define what each member is to do...and for any variables they have the audible. Seems like the smart thing to do.

    Every fire I've been to (speaking of interior attack) has needed search, hoselines, usually some form of FE, Overhaul, ventilation of some sort...etc. No real surprises or gray area there. I just can't imagine how anyone wouldn't see this as an improvement.)

    I attended some classes at FDIC some years ago and there were instructors from all over the country including Florida and they all discussed how critical it was for a dept to have standard procedures and designations to avoid confusion on a fire ground. (ie-eliminate as much confusion before hand) For example these Florida guys I think teamed their woefully manned Truck up with the first ambulance to create a two-team/4-man Truck Company; This is obviously more critical to Depts. who don't run fires regularly as they don't get to practice the routine as much.

    Its not as complicated as it sounds, and I certainly donít see it as "micro-managing" by the IC. As an example, here is what our radio traffic might sound like...
    -E41 on scene, smoke showing side so & so. E41 will be making an (interior/exterior) attack.
    -E32 at the hydrant will be laying in.
    -D35 on scene in command.
    -T48 on scene side so & so. (at this point, T48 has many options, assist with forced entry, go interior for a search, start PPV, ladder the roof, pull another line and so on, that all fit under first due truck. BUT, they wait for an order from the IC.)
    -Command T48, we have a report of a child inside.
    -T48 understood, interior search.

    -E27 on scene, will be setting up RIG (RIT) side so & so.
    -S18 on scene staged 1st street & 5th ave. (Here again, the squad has many options)
    -Command S18, into the scene and set up PPV side so & so
    -S18 understood.
    WOW, that sure was complicated...
    Now, if thats what you call micro-managing, so be it. We call it flexability. And you will also notice, not much radio traffic. The IC doesnt even need to respond to several of the units (laying a line, setting up RIG). It really is that simple. All units followed the SOGs as written.
    Dave, Your example, and yes I understand it is just that however it is what you would describe as typical ops for you...states that search wouldn't be started until someone was reported to be inside! and that ventilation needs to be dictated to a company as if that company officer or even firefighter was unable or incapable of knowing how to coordinate ventilation with the inside team. To me it appears as a total lack of trust and forethought into preparing your firefighters to act independently yet in conjunction with the company.

    In fact your example mirrors my experience where search was often overlooked until someone was mentioned to be missing or even worse until the "IC" felt it was necessary to assign someone to that task. I have volumes of texts from many different authors and none of them nor any legal advice would advocate leaving such a task to the whim and pleasure of whomever shows up first or happens to be chief for a night.

    That is the biggest difference I see is outlined procedures eliminate poor fire strategy, and incompetent bosses while the "pick-up football game method allows for mistakes and forgetfulness.

    Ranahan I agree with your assessment...
    As for "tying the hands" of the IC, we look at it in a completely different way than you. Companies following procedures keep the IC from micromanaging, and the IC is then allowed to focus on the bigger picture rather than the individual actions of one crew. If atypical tactics are required, the IC can still utilize those at his discretion. The IC doesn't become a SuperCaptain -- he controls the incident, and the company officers keep the individual companies going by following procedural guidance unless directed otherwise by the IC.
    This has been my experience and a few others who came from the system I originally worked under (which sounds similar to Daveís) and moved on to depts. that assigned as much as possible before hand. Keep in mind a number of my friends are in Depts. much much smaller than mine so I don't think anyone can pigeon hole this as being only for large depts. I and others have seen where there is little outgoing radio traffic from the Chief who doesn't need to give superfluous commands over the radio and instead listens from updates from the officers, Roof, and OVM...etc. This greatly simplifies things in my view.

    Also as an administrative side...by defining roles and responsibilities...the next time some cheap bureaucrat wants to slash staffing on the FD side...you can show him what each member is used for and why it is critical for them to be on that apparatus.

    Besides, the way it sounds, our areas operate in very different ways. We would only split a crew in an extreme case. Certainly not to for routine operations. If the truck is going to vent, then the whole truck crew vents. If its a search, the whole crew searches.
    Dave, I know we've had many discussions before regarding staffing in suburban/urban areas and that of our respective areas...however in light of the fact of almost everyoneís abysmal staffing situations why wouldn't you take members and team them up to form 2 man teams...wouldn't this increase you efficiency use of personnel available? Also are firemen in your dept or local depts. incapable of routinely working without the "direct" supervision of a company officer? (This would be as opposed to "functional supervision.)

    I imagine this is how we get photos of 4 firemen on the peaked roof of those private dwellings out west/south...meanwhile these depts. still clamor for better staffing...their staffing issues are partially their own fault.

    In the end you will operate as you always have...however having worked under similar circumstances I can't imagine how anyone wouldn't see the many weaknesses of such a system.

    Stay safe to everyone.

    FTM-PTB

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    BC79er,

    One question: why isn't there this debate about rescue-pumpers? I mean after all, it's a two-hatted truck isn't it? FDNY has those in the form of Squads, other cities do the same. Squads/Rescue companies act like truck companies when needed, why no argument about only staffing those with a crew of 4 when they might have to drag hose and perform truck/rescue work on a fire? Don't they change jobs depending on when they arrive too? Aren't they being asked to perform the jobs of two companies? Enquiring minds want to know. Well, I do anyway.
    1st I don't see many cities using Rescue Pumpers in lieu of fully equipped Rescue Companies as I am familiar with many more who replaced Engines with Quints just to avoid opening Ladder Companies.

    Also Squads in the example doesn't apply as the FDNY squads are only Engines in their 1st, 2nd and 3rd Due areas. They are citywide and augment Rescue and Haz-Mat ops. They and the Rescues train more than ALMOST ANYONE ELSE I KNOW. They have many responsiblities and tasks. Although they all have their own routines more or less they drill Multiple times a day and also review operations and tactics at jobs and on routine runs. They do a Fire Drill, Haz-Mat Drill and Rescue Drill in the SAME DAY or TOUR if time allows. In most cases these aren't table top drills either. They are hands-on. Although I might give them a good natured ribbing from time to time...I have a number of friends who wear the yellow patch and they are extreemly highly motivated individuals.

    They are NOT USED to replace two fully staffed companies as quints are in many communities. They either operate as an Engine or as a Squad and operate as such to augment the operating companies and as a tool for the Chief.

    2nd as a fireman who spend many painful and confusing years as a Quint guy (I felt like a pre-Op transvestite with the hormonal treatment but right before the chop!) I tried and tried (much more than many of my brothers) to maintain my Engine and Truck Skills...and truthfully it is hard if not impossible even for a moderately busy company which we were. It takes a special person to be committed to that level of training...yet it would seem most depts. feel they can get away with just purchasing a quint and only occasional training.

    Don't be fooled by the argument that anyone can be a good Engineman and Truckie at the same time. I'm much better at stretching the handlines, where to flake it out, how to move it better, how to back up the nozzleman...etc. than my brothers in the truck who are much better than me at forcing doors, search, operating the bucket, getting to the roof and the routine that must be followed. It takes much more practice than one thinks to get to the point where one is that good at it.

    If you think getting a Quint will give your company and Chiefs "another tool" don't forget that "tool" needs to be sharpened, honed, used and cleaned often to be of any use...otherwise it falls into disuse and becomes rusty and a burdon to the user.

    FTM-PTB

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    C'mon Larry, there's always Ferrara to make fun of. All those homing pigeons that are about to be delivered to HFD ought to make for some fodder.

    $5.5 million for 11 basic pumpers with no foam? Man, and y'all say Pierce is overpriced? Sheesh. I hope that report on pricing was wrong, or someone is going to be walking funny after getting that bill.

    On subject: again, I'm not arguing that quints should replace an engine and a ladder. Completely the opposite. My argument is that what's the difference if it has a pump if it's going to be used as a truck no matter what? And if it is first in, isn't it better to have some water than be waiting on an engine that's 5 minutes out? Happened several times around here, first 6 units on location were 2 chiefs, 2 ambulances, and 2 ladders. No water, no hose for 6 minutes after the other units arrived because the closest 2 pumpers were on other calls. The public expects the firemen to come put the fire out when they arrive, kinda bad PR to have to tell them that this $500K+ truck doesn't have water, we need to wait for another one. Yeah I know, search, ventilation, etc, etc, but might that kill a few more firefighters? Searching without handline protection?

    So I say leave the quint as a truck unless absolutely necessary. And if your local powers that be see it as two units in one, better get out your sharpened pencil and let them know that's not how it is. Don't judge the truck by it's pump.

    For the sake of Larry's head let's not get into comparing pumps on ladders to EMS equipment on fire trucks. Talk about tons of training to stay sharp on both.
    Last edited by BC79er; 04-19-2005 at 12:16 AM.

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    On subject: again, I'm not arguing that quints should replace an engine and a ladder. Completely the opposite. My argument is that what's the difference if it has a pump if it's going to be used as a truck no matter what? And if it is first in, isn't it better to have some water than be waiting on an engine that's 5 minutes out? Happened several times around here, first 6 units on location were 2 chiefs, 2 ambulances, and 2 ladders. No water, no hose for 6 minutes after the other units arrived because the closest 2 pumpers were on other calls. The public expects the firemen to come put the fire out when they arrive, kinda bad PR to have to tell them that this $500K+ truck doesn't have water, we need to wait for another one. Yeah I know, search, ventilation, etc, etc, but might that kill a few more firefighters? Searching without handline protection?
    Just out of curocity what percentage does this type of senario occur in your jurisdiction? Or are we just playing the "What if game?"

    The question then presents two conclusions:

    1. It is rare- Therefore this situation only occurs less than 1% of the time... you should have little concern as you probably don't staff your city or apparatus with enough manpower to meet 100% of your calls...as in you might still have to call 2nd alarms, mutual aid, recall personel. I imagnine that it is even less than 99%. You can't and probably don't plan for or staff for EVERY LAST plausible senario.

    2. This has become common in your community to be without Engines and the Fire Chief could find himself being portrayed as a incompetant fool as he didn't bring this critical situation to the city council's attention.

    If the avaiablity of the Engines has dropped to a level where there are no Engines available in a certain neghborhood wouldn't it make sense to either relocate companies temporairily, organize more Engine Co's or modify certain response procedures during low availablity..such as a tiered system of EMS runs like only cardiac arrests and chokings when you don't have enough Engines in service.

    The ARMY doesn't make tanks to carry 14 addtional troops if they find themselves short of personell carriers. They get more personell carriers.

    The public expects the firemen to come put the fire out when they arrive,
    They also expect the proffesionals they hired to look at the big picture and realize that overall the FD as a whole operates effiecently.

    As for
    Yeah I know, search, ventilation, etc, etc, but might that kill a few more firefighters? Searching without handline protection?
    You are kidding right? You want someone to hold their hand? Well trained Truck companies should be capable of evaluating a specific situation and taking appropriate precautions while conducting business. If you are operating without the benefit of a handline take the can and see what you can do to isolate the fire...perhaps to the room of origin or even knock it down entirely. If a Truckie can't operate without a handline...he belongs in the Engine.

    My expereince with Quints hasn't been to give tools to Trucks...it was used to avoid opening new Truck companies. How lower staffing and fewer companies benefits anyone other than politicans with pet projects I'll never know???

    FTM-PTB

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    Good ahead, say what you want about how we operate and all the "problems" with it, bash it till the cows come home. Nobdy seems to be understanding what Ive said anyway, as they continue to say things like "you need SOGs" (we have them).

    But the simple fact remains that the number one priority with our SOG's is FF safety, and our operations are based on that. We have, what I would consider, an above average save rate for buildings, very few serious FF injuries and a LODD about once every 30 yeas (or more). Maybe some dont see that as important, but we do.

    Our fires, big and little, go out (usualy with 4 walls and roof still inplace) and 99% of the time EVERYBODY goes home. So go ahead, bash away
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

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    Dave, No matter what we disagree on and how we operate differently, I agree 110%. As long as everyone goes home, that is all that matters.
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Originally posted by STATION2
    As long as everyone goes home, that is all that matters.
    Ding-ding...we have the correct answer.

    Dave, didn't mean to give you a headache.
    I think you and I just had some communication issues; didn't mean to bash or anything.
    No hard feelings, right?

    And thanks to FFFRED for the support.

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    Originally posted by ranahan


    Ding-ding...we have the correct answer.

    Dave, didn't mean to give you a headache.
    I think you and I just had some communication issues; didn't mean to bash or anything.
    No hard feelings, right?

    And thanks to FFFRED for the support.

    Na, life's too short for hard feelings
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

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    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

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    Question A Quiller?

    We currently staff (3-4) a 75' quint. We have been very unhappy with the performance and space on the unit. We are ready to upgrade and go to something with more reach, a lot more comp. space, and (not my call) a pump. I have seen some quint tillers out there, anyone have any feedback on this concept?

    Thanks for your help.

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    You run a quint now? But your new proposed one will have a pump? Not meaning to be difficult, but I'm confused. Does your current ladder truck have a pump, booster tank and hosebed?
    Stay low and move it in.

    Be safe.


    Larry

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    Our dept is part-paid with four full time members and the reason we purchased our newest quint was for quicker set up times. We have two quints; 1982 Pierce 85' Snorkel with a 1500 pump and 200 gallons of water ( problem here is it takes one person about six minutes to set the aerial up ), our newest one is an American LaFrance Eagle 75' Telesqurt with a 1500 pump and 500 tank. This truck is sweet, in two minutes I can have the ladder in the air. It is also first out for fires in our southern district. We only staff two of our three houses with one firefighter around the clock, so when there is a fire, we know that we have a ladder enroute even though it is not officially called an aerial ladder.
    The snorkel pulls second out on fire responses but having a split LDH hose bed does make the operator pay attention when laying in. If you don't count the couplings coming off, you stand to not connect to the other hose bed.
    We carry 1,000' of LDH on both quints. The ALF has the same compartment sizes of our 1,000 gallon engines do.
    Jim Shultz
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