1. #1
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    Default To Quint or not to Quint, whats the deal?

    Many of the instructors in the courses I have taken at my local academy are career FFs and almost every one of them have the same sentiment to the Quint, a truck shouldnít have a pump. Whatís the deal? To me a Quint gives you the beat of both worlds an apparatus that can be self-sufficient. If you look at the bigger cities, a hook and ladder need to have an engine to operate when they need to flow water. Isnít this a waste of resources and money.
    Itís just a question, no need to get nasty with the responses.
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    Some places use Quints to reduce staffing by "trying" to combine a truck and an engine.

    Some places don't staff a Quint with enough people to let it function as it's designed.

    Some places try to use a poorly designed Quint that is either too big for access or too little to do the job.

    Quints can be great when designed correctly, manned correctly, used correctly.


    After all, it's just a fire truck. When not used correctly, it's no better than any other tool used incorrectly.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Bones, Well put. If departments staffed Quints with 8-10 FF, most of those complaints would go away.
    Lead, Follow or Get Out of the Way.

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    I think quints (or quads) work particularly well in some volly or combo departments in which it is not assured that all apparatus dispatched on an alarm will get out in a timely fashion and properly staffed (or even get out at all). In that case, multipurpose apparatus such as quints can really save your tail because of their versatility, particularly if they are the first rigs out of the station on a structure alarm.

    On the other hand, I also do believe in the operational efficiency of having specialized companies. In a career setting, or some combo departments, where response of apparatus and staffing can be counted on the vast majority of the time, it seems to me that separate engine companies and truck companies (or ladders or towers or snorkels or whatever) make more sense than even a properly-staffed quint (ignoring budgetary constraints, of course). Just my conjecture from what I know of such departments in my area.

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    Well put and understood thanks for the time.
    Look before you cut.
    Rich (but poor)

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    A quint could be used to do truck work or engine work, or both. where problems arise is when you try to do all functions with the same crew. we run our quint out of our southside station, so on southside fires its there first. Generally, our quint does strictly truck work, but its nice to have the pump and the lines just in case. our engine crews have already gotten to the scene and pulled our lines rather than theirs and a fires have been handled using just the quint with multiple crews utilizing it. We also prefer to have one of our engineers controlling the flow of our ladder pipe when needed, rather than a seperate engine. Basically we have a pump, tank and hose on our ladder that are used when needed. So far, in 8 years the supply line on the ladder has never been laid at a fire, so we aren't making the mistake of trying to do it all with one truck, but its nice to know we can in a crisis. Quints really can just about do it all, just don't make one crew do it all.

    www.palmerfire.org

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    Chainsaw,
    From my perspective, on the very surface it looks as though a quint is the best of both worlds, but when you look at quint apparatus much more closely, I think you will see many trade-offs that have to be evaluated.
    One issue is the consideration that a quint is both an engine and a truck. I would say very few quints, if any, are truly an engine and a truck. If you look at NFPA 1901 for quint apparatus, the quint requirements are reduced from that of aerial/pumper apparatus (equipment storage and ground ladders come to mind). Many will argue that an aerial ladder should be a 100 footer and obviously 100 footers are the std in most urban areas. Many departments, including many urban depts are specing a 750 gal booster tank. Even if you stick with a 500 gal booster and a 100 ft. aerial that is 1901 quint compliant, that's a monster piece and in some cases a department may be running that on a high volume of EMS runs.

    So from my perspective, even right out of the box, a 1901 compliant quint isn't truly combining all of the attributes of an engine and a truck. And then you have to make trade-offs, you go 100 ft. on the aerial, and that gets to be big piece of apparatus to run in place of what would have been an engine. You cna drop to a 75 footer, but now you are making an even bigger trade-off on the aerial capabiliyt.

    Then you have the issue of staffing -3,4, or 5 isn't going to allow you function in both capacities, so you're only essentially getting an engine or a truck when you leave the station.

    I think Bob Snyder had some very good commetns. For small volly or paid depts with very limited staffing (they can only essentially staff a one or at most two pieces of apparatus), then a quint should be considered. Beyond that applicaiton, I don't see the benefit for most department, volly or paid.

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    Originally posted by kfactor
    Many will argue that an aerial ladder should be a 100 footer and obviously 100 footers are the std in most urban areas. Many departments, including many urban depts are specing a 750 gal booster tank. Even if you stick with a 500 gal booster and a 100 ft. aerial that is 1901 quint compliant, that's a monster piece and in some cases a department may be running that on a high volume of EMS runs.
    The quints or quads I've seen used most effectively on a consistent basis are rigs that are set up to be ladder companies first, and then happen to have a pump, some water and some attack lines in the event they are needed (see, for example, my low manpower scenario above). These rigs might have tanks as small as 300 gals and their hose complements could be limited to as little as 2 or 3 crosslays...just enough to get an attack started on something up to a room-and-contents and contain it until a proper engine shows up.

    Originally posted by kfactor
    So from my perspective, even right out of the box, a 1901 compliant quint isn't truly combining all of the attributes of an engine and a truck. And then you have to make trade-offs, you go 100 ft. on the aerial, and that gets to be big piece of apparatus to run in place of what would have been an engine. You cna drop to a 75 footer, but now you are making an even bigger trade-off on the aerial capabiliyt.
    Exactly. These rigs have their place, but they have their shortcomings, and both sides have to be evaluated when deciding whether or not it's the right kind of rig for your area and application.

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    I am new to the quint concept and like others, beleive a truck company is a truck company. However...Our quint is a year old today and it has 7 working fires under it's belt. At 5 of the fires, it was very nice to lay it's own supply line, pump it's own water to the stick and not have to be dependant on an engine that we did'nt have to spare.

    My mind is not made up yet as to it's concept, but I'll give it a chance for another year or so.

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    Default questions

    what size pump and tank do you have on your quint? my dept. is a few years away from getting a new pumper and we are already having some discussions on whether to go with a quint or class A pumper?
    michael umphrey
    captain higgins twp fire/rescue/ems
    roscommon,mi

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    Thumbs down

    Take a look at this quint, what a cluster. Sadly to say it's mine (not me on the panel though). make sure your goals are clear and understand one function at a time engine or truck. Usually there isnt enough people to do both unless you have 8 guys on the piece.
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    Originally posted by Frosty42
    pump it's own water to the stick and not have to be dependant on an engine that we did'nt have to spare.

    That statment makes me thing you have more problem then the fire at hand. An engine is for pumping IE supplying the ladder truck, if you don't have the spare consider why not getting a pump on a ladder.
    Bucks County, PA.

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    I can guarantee you with having used top-mounts my entire "experience" in the fire service, and not normally having a large steel beam across the walkway - I would run flat into that SOB at O dark thirty because I'd forget it was there in my haste to get water out to someone on a line...

    Is that top-mount with an aerial idea really workable?
    Last edited by npfd801; 03-30-2005 at 11:01 AM.

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    quote

    can guarantee you with having used top-mounts my entire "experience" in the fire service, and not normally having a large steel beam across the walkway - I would run fkat into that SOB at O dark thirty because I'd forget it was there in my haste to get water out to someone on a line...

    Is that top-mount with an aerial idea really workable?

    Not really. In oreder to use the pump you have to throw the ladder. Unfortunatley with the set back we run into our 75 footer just dosnt do it. I have had the ladder fail to operate wich means I couldnt get the dam thing up, smell of smoke in a bank smoke showing no help comming except a rescue with three guys and you can get water. Talk about a lousy feeling.

    It was not good planning on our part. However we have learned alot and know what to do next time around.

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    It is if you have the members of the Lollipop Guild as pump operators. I'm with you, I'd have a lot more dents in my head than I do now.

    Putting a pump on your truck depends on your situation. If you have enough engines that can get to the scene in short period of time, then no big deal on not having a pump. The average high risk fire doesn't even need 4 engines pumping water for handlines, so 1 can be committed to master streams with the aerial no problem.

    If you're 2nd or 3rd engine won't get there in a timely manner, or you have a history of having a truck company at the scene with no pump or water, then might want to consider the quint.

    I agree with the others that say that it has to be used properly. Using it to decrease staffing in career departments is not proper use. A quint should always act like a truck company, unless it's first in and pumping is necessary. Depending on the engines you have coming in, a quint might be the only way to get 1000gpm from a master stream since friction loss through the standpipe warrants a 2000gpm pump or a dang good hydrant system to make 1000gpm at the tip.

    You do lose equipment space, no doubt about it, so you do need to consider what the truck will go to and be expected to support. If you have a heavy rescue that rolls on your tech rescue stuff, then you don't need the ton of rope gear on the truck company. Trucks need equipment for ventilation, civilian/FF rescue, and salvage and overhaul. If you can fit everything you think you need for those tasks on a quint, then throw on the pump and tank.

    We're going for drawing approval in a few weeks on our quint. 105' aerial, 2000gpm pump, 400tank, 30gal foam tank, CAFS, speedlays, dual remote deck guns behind the cab, full ISO/NFPA ground ladder complement, and plenty of storage space for truck/RIT work. Since we have 5 other engines between the 3 stations, it will roll first out of the station it's assigned to on all structure fires. We run 5000 calls a year, 80% EMS, so since we stand the chance of having that truck there so far in advance of another pumper, it needed to have a pump. CAFS just because we're amazed at the suppression capabilities from our newest pumper, and we won't be buying another apparatus without it, and probably retrofitting the 2 newest.

    Is one right for you? Depends. If you sit down and worry about that truck showing up and not having water moving capabilities for 3-5 minutes, then it needs a pump. If you have 2 engines and one or both are not reliable or safe trucks to have on the road, it needs a pump. If you have smaller areas and automatic mutual aid like most of Maryland or even Bucks where stcommodore runs, then maybe no pump since the first due areas are smaller, and you get at least 4 engines and 2 ladders on an apartment fire. There's no one answer that fits all. That's the real answer.

  16. #16
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    Default Who was the manufacture?

    Captain S

    Who build this unit.

    Thanks
    GB

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    Our quint operates as a truck on 95% of incidents.

    It is just nice to have a pump so when you are called out mutual aid, have something that requires an elevated stream or another type of large incident you dont have to tie up an engine and a ladder.

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    Originally posted by k1500chevy97
    Our quint operates as a truck on 95% of incidents.

    It is just nice to have a pump so when you are called out mutual aid, have something that requires an elevated stream or another type of large incident you dont have to tie up an engine and a ladder.
    As does ours. Our ladder is second due almost all the time unless it's a daytime response and we know our other district stations will be bringing an engine we will roll the truck. Also, if you are a 2 apparatus station like us when the Engine is out for either maintenance or service you still have an engine.

    ~Jeff
    Piscataway Fire Dist #2
    Possumtown V.F.C.

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    640SATFD

    It is a mutt here we go;

    Originally an E-one/Spartan 1500 gallon tanker, rebuilt 1999 by 3D, Aerial Inovations with some more local work by 21st century fire in Glenville NY

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    Lightbulb

    We've been developing our specs for a new tower. As a rule I've been a strict Truck is a Truck man. Here are some of the reasons:
    Quint Cons:
    1. Cannot carry full ground ladder and truck co. tools without being huge.
    2. Once a hose has been strectched it anchored there, which takes away the ability to re-position the aerial.
    3. If you have a pump problem your out an aerial and vice versa.
    4. Bigger motor and transmission needed = $$$
    5. Inadequate staff to do both operations.

    Quint Pros:
    1. One call does it all. If you believe your staffing allows this.
    2. With a pump onboard you can supply the aerial master streams properly.

    Pro #2 was a sticking point for us. Without a pump supplying the aerial to its full potential (1250 gpm specced) requires an engine within 200' (depends on LDH size and type. Basically to supply the aerial at 100 ft eleveation and 80 psi (smoothbore is the only way to fly) starts you at 130 psi at the inlet to waterway. Depending on your LDH the FL will be fairly high at 1250 gpm and if your supplying it with 1250 pump(as we would)you can only count on max gpm up to 165 psi.(ya ya you can subtract the positive water source but lets not here for the sake of arguement. So we started to lean towards apump just for aerail master streams, but alas decided against it because it would force us to increase motor size and the transmission and take away compartment space. There is no shortage of engines in our area and if its a defensive operation we'll make the time to set it up right.

    If you're seriuously considering a new aerail or quint see if you can hire Mike Wilbur and Tom Shand to give you a class or do an apparatus survey. We did both and are much further ahead than we would have been without them. But put on you thick skin, Mike will certainly tell you if what you already own is crap. His manner os to tell it like it is and we were thankful for it. Of course we pride ourselves in our membership to the Church of Painful Truth. Check Emergency Vehicles on the web, you'll not be sorry. If you don't think you can get the money to pay ask yourselves this: Would we build a new station without an arcitect? Why spend $500K without hiring an apparatus architect? Have you specced enough to really know what your doing? You mistakes will haunt you for the life of the truck.

    Except for ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism and Communism - WAR HAS NEVER SOLVED ANYTHING! - PW.com

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    Just out of curiousity, if you're going 100' tower, aren't you already at the largest motor and tranny available on the chassis? That used to be the easy part of aerials, you spec 500HP Detroit and 5000 series Allison, and now 515HP on most manufacturers. Unless I missed something, adding a pump wouldn't change that since you can't increase those two past that anyway. We didn't even think to go 500HP when the 515HP came out, and we're in the flatlands. I can't imagine dropping below 500HP in an area with hills.

    We hit on the same cons, but they were kinda simple to de-con (pro-pro?) in our case
    1) We got a full ISO ladder complement on ours, replacing the 45' with a 35' as allowed in ISO equivalency charts, since we wanted a 400 gallon tank instead of the 300 or smaller. If you're a fully hydranted area we're not), don't need more than 200-300 gallons on board in which case you can squeeze a 45' on. 45' is a lot of ground ladder and too manpower intensive, and we don't have any spots where we can't get the truck that we'd even need the 35' let alone the extra 10'.
    2) 5 minutes after getting on scene, with or without being anchored to a hydrant directly, you're going to have to move pumpers, chief's cars, cop cars, etc, and disconnect hoses to relocate the aerial anyway.
    3) If the pump doesn't pump, spec a valve on the waterway so that it can still be supplied by another pumper independent on the on board pump. Water pump doesn't impact truck company ops, the stick still goes up and down.
    4) See above
    5) 6 on aerials, pump or not. Less overall fires and less multi-alarm fires make this dang near impossible to sell to the check writers. I don't know of any career depts running more than 4 offhand. Further proof of better marketing needed in the fire service, the public is too ignorant of how fireground ops are supposed to work.

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    Question

    Well taking those I take exception to in order:
    1. No spots for a 35'. How many aerials does the truck have. I'll bet even yours can't be in two places at once. Our old Maxim tried by going around corners.
    2.I don't know how you operate but we do not shut down hose line operations to move our aerial. It's kinda hard to pull ffer's from the building to shutdown. I didn't just mean anchor the quint to a hydrant, how about a line going inside?
    3. If the pump doesn't pump you've got to get it fixed. If the aerial has to leave town for pump work, you've got no aerial. More stuff to break = more that will break. The pump does affect truck co. ops the minute someone pulls a line.
    4. While we did opt for a larger motr thatn the minimum, we've been given many options for both motor and tranny, with a pump the options were few.
    5. Great go ahead and prove to the bean counters you can do more with less. Every day we take cuts and staffing shortages and still do the job, being the ingenious folks we are we get it done. Next thing you know you'll have a snow plow on the front. A truck is a truck. Some departments may benefits from quints, but it is rare to see them successful unless they can decide which type of ops their going to do and stick with them. And of course train on true truck co. stuff, as well as engine work, RIT, Haz-Mat, extrications and EMS duties. The more we become Jack of all trades, the more we become Masters of none.

    Except for ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism and Communism WAR HAS NEVER SOLVED ANYTHING!

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    Originally posted by RFDACM
    We've been developing our specs for a new tower. As a rule I've been a strict Truck is a Truck man. Here are some of the reasons:
    Quint Cons:
    1. Cannot carry full ground ladder and truck co. tools without being huge.
    2. Once a hose has been strectched it anchored there, which takes away the ability to re-position the aerial.
    3. If you have a pump problem your out an aerial and vice versa.
    4. Bigger motor and transmission needed = $$$
    5. Inadequate staff to do both operations.
    1. Incorrect. We have full NFPA ladders (including a 35')and tools
    on our quint, which is less then 40' OAL.

    2. If you spot the rig corecttly in the first place, this isnt an
    issue.

    3. OK, I'll give you that one.

    4. Really dont see why. A truck, quint or not, should have the
    biggest motor/trans anyway.

    5. Huh? If you have 4 FF's on your quint and you need it as an
    engine co., you have a 4 FF engine co. If you have 4 FF's and
    you use it as a truck co., you have a 4 FF truck co. Just
    because a quint can do both, doesnt mean you try and do both at
    the same time. Its one or the other.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 04-04-2005 at 08:20 PM.
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    Curious on one thing though....what about the small to midsize community that was a sleepy little farming community that has begun to see urban sprawl, growing with alot of residential two/three stroy homes and unsure how to handle it with little manpower? It seems as though there is a bit of a trend for departments that never owned an aerial at all, now wanting a pumper with "ladder" capabilites. This is usually due to manpwer shortages of the timely second unit or aerial response. This may be a regional thing, but there seems to be alot of people tryign top accomplish this of late.

    The minimal wishes we see a bunch lately in our area is and a thumbnail below of one:

    6 person cab
    525 hp
    med cabinet inside crew area
    85' three section
    2000 pump
    frt bumper hydraulic and electric reels
    three 250' xlays
    rear "suction" with 2 rear slide in 6" x 15' suctions hose
    1200' of 5"
    500' of 2.5"
    1000' of 1" forestry hose on a reel
    145' of ground ladders
    800 water (yes 800)
    50 foam
    two positon aerial and monitor controls
    air and 120 power to the tip
    lots of compartmentation

    Does this make any sense or can someone explain to me the downsides? Yes, I am trying to learn from this question, not promoting or selling a darn thing. Just curious of anyones experience with something like this? Please share.

    Stay safe and good luck.

    GUY
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    Default same thing but mid mount

    although, personally, I am not a big midmount fan, here is the same thing, same specs, 85', 800 water, 135 ish ground ladders, 50 foam, 2000 pump, yada yada...it "seems" to make a little sense for that smaller ruralish department that cannot ensure timely responses. Does this have any validity or is it totally crazy?

    I am trying to be humble and learn a little from you "quint guys"...

    Thanks in advance for the insight.

    Stay safe and good luck.

    GUY.
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