1. #1
    Forum Member
    StayBack500FT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    2,236

    Default "Volunteer" Pennsylvania State Police can arrest you!!

    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05069/468958.stm



    Amazing that this is still on the books!
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

    I.A.C.O.J. Safety/Traffic Control Officer

    E6511

    "Who's Who Among American Teachers" - 2005, 2006 Honoree

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    RyanEMVFD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    Why? It's not like you're going to visit me! But I'm near Waco, Texas
    Posts
    2,386

    Default

    I did enjoy seeing the ad for volunteers at the bottom of the page.
    NREMT-P\ Reserve Volunteer Firefighter\Reserve Police Officer
    IACOJ Attack

    Experts built the Titanic, amateurs built the Ark.

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Berks County, PA
    Posts
    629

    Default

    The only thing that surprises me about this is that it didn't take some poor, inncoent bystander getting killed or seriously injured to get someone in the state legislature to take some action. I would have bet real money against it...just because I know rural Pennsylvania sooooooo well.

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    About three-fourths are men, age 55 or older, said one of their officers, Kevin Ball, 47, who lives in Crawford County and works as a security guard at Conneaut Lake park.
    This says it all, doesn't it. I wondere what the qualifications are to be a member, the level of training, etc.

    My guess is very little for both!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  5. #5
    55 Years & Still Rolling
    hwoods's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
    Posts
    10,739

    Talking Opportunity Knocks..................

    Can we send this tidbit to all the Media? They get into the Cops Union/Volunteer thing, they'll leave us alone........
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

  6. #6
    Sr. Information Officer
    NJFFSA16's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    25 NW of the GW
    Posts
    8,434

    Default

    "We can't have people going around saying they're state police when they're not state police," Logan said.
    WRONG! According to that law....they ARE state police.

    StayBack....are you a poleeeece man?
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
    Be Safe! Lookouts-Awareness-Communications-Escape Routes-Safety Zones

    *Gathering Crust Since 1968*
    On the web at www.section2wildfire.com

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    Originally posted by NJFFSA16
    WRONG! According to that law....they ARE state police.

    StayBack....are you a poleeeece man?
    good, and here I was thinking I was the only one that read this. they were incorporated before the PASP, and they have been on the books since before the SP. news flash, the PaSP are named after these volunteers!!!

    some outtakes from the article:
    The Crawford/Erie group was even officially sanctioned and empowered by a state law in 1872. The law -- now under attack by the state police union -- allows the private group to wear uniforms with insignia reading "state police," to carry weapons, to have a marked police vehicle, to detain suspects and make arrests.

    "It's a dangerous situation, a scary situation, and I'm concerned," Miller told the Senate Appropriations Committee. The Pennsylvania State Police, who now number about 4,300, weren't officially formed until 1905, 33 years after the Crawford/Erie group came into being.
    see, the volunteers were created by law in 1872, and the other state police in 1903. so now the new guys are ****ed that the older group is displaying their name
    But there are certain obvious identification problems between the volunteer group and the real Pennsylvania state police. One is the similarity in names, said state Police Sgt. Bruce Edwards, president of the State Troopers Association.
    again, according to the Pa laws, the 1872 group might be considered the "real state police."

    and stayback, watch it now, this thread might be turning into a paid vs. volunteer thing
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    StayBack500FT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    2,236

    Default

    LOL!! I thought this would put a new spin on the tired old Vollie/Paid thing...


    I am curious as to George's response to this one.
    Last edited by StayBack500FT; 03-15-2005 at 09:23 AM.
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

    I.A.C.O.J. Safety/Traffic Control Officer

    E6511

    "Who's Who Among American Teachers" - 2005, 2006 Honoree

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    ThNozzleman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Jefferson City, TN
    Posts
    4,334

    Default

    What an awesome idea! Think of the money the nation would save if they fired 2/3 of the law enforcement in this nation and replaced them with volunteers! I mean, it's good enough for the fire service, right?
    Seriously, this reminds me of the "constables" we have around here. It's an elected office, held over from years and years past. They have the same powers as a deputy sheriff, pretty much. Up until a few years ago, there was no training requirments for this position. Just buy yourself a uniform, a pistol, and a surplus cruiser, and you're ready to go! Come to think of it, I'm not even sure there is any training requirements to this day.

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    StayBack500FT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    2,236

    Default

    This is the second time I've hit the quote button, rather than edit...DO'OH!
    May we never forget our fallen, worldwide.

    I.A.C.O.J. Safety/Traffic Control Officer

    E6511

    "Who's Who Among American Teachers" - 2005, 2006 Honoree

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Berks County, PA
    Posts
    629

    Default

    Originally posted by ThNozzleman
    What an awesome idea! Think of the money the nation would save if they fired 2/3 of the law enforcement in this nation and replaced them with volunteers! I mean, it's good enough for the fire service, right?
    Yea...and when they implement this, I want to see these same communities make the cops run bingo, sell sandwiches and stand on street corners with boots begging for money to buy guns and cruisers.

    My fire company is municipally funded now, but I still have flashbacks to the bad old days....I'm not the least bit bitter, though...honest...

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    EFD840's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Eclectic (no, NOT electric), Alabama
    Posts
    1,510

    Default

    Seriously, this reminds me of the "constables" we have around here. It's an elected office, held over from years and years past. They have the same powers as a deputy sheriff, pretty much. Up until a few years ago, there was no training requirments for this position. Just buy yourself a uniform, a pistol, and a surplus cruiser, and you're ready to go! Come to think of it, I'm not even sure there is any training requirements to this day.
    Thanks Noz! I thought Alabama was the only state with constables. Ours are exactly the same. Some are retired LEOs that are very qualified (I seem to remember my county sheriff using a couple of these to serve stuff) but many are wannabes (I wonder what you call a police whacker) that suddenly have a legal right to wear a badge and carry a gun. If Tennessee has implemented minimum standards, youre a step ahead. Alabama still has no training requirement.

  13. #13
    Forum Member
    jensam433's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    54

    Default

    NYS has an arcane 100+ year old law that gives peace officer status to a private organization, the NYS Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, which includes full right to carry concealed weapons. It is basically a front to get a carry permit which is recognized in all of NYS including NYC. Some shady characters (organized crime types) have given contribution$ to this group and have acquired LEO status.
    A man has to have something to believe in & I believe I'll have another beer.

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    ThNozzleman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Jefferson City, TN
    Posts
    4,334

    Default

    If Tennessee has implemented minimum standards, youre a step ahead. Alabama still has no training requirement.
    I just checked. All you need are a few signatures to qualify for the election, get elected, and PRESTO...you're a cop. Upon election, it seems you are automatically allowed to carry a weapon, without any qualifications. I'll check further, but it looks as if that's the way it is. Most of the people who run for these offices in this area ( I think our county has 10-12 or more) are generally power-hungry whacker types, who are up to their necks in small-town politics.

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    ThNozzleman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Jefferson City, TN
    Posts
    4,334

    Default

    After checking a couple of websites, I believe that TN requires 40 hours a year of inservice training and be range-qualified by a certified firearms instructor before being allowed to carry a firearm.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Covington, La
    Posts
    28

    Default

    Originally posted by ThNozzleman
    What an awesome idea! Think of the money the nation would save if they fired 2/3 of the law enforcement in this nation and replaced them with volunteers! I mean, it's good enough for the fire service, right?
    AMEN! My thoughts exactly....
    Too back it wouldnt last long. Once people started getting killed (on both sides of the law) they would quickly replace them with professionals.

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,684

    Default

    Originally posted by sexauer


    AMEN! My thoughts exactly....
    Too back it wouldnt last long. Once people started getting killed (on both sides of the law) they would quickly replace them with professionals.
    Oh yeah, full time paid cops never kill people. They never make mistakes. They never arrest the wrong people.

    Got a bridge for sale, wanna buy it?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Covington, La
    Posts
    28

    Default

    Originally posted by Bones42
    Oh yeah, full time paid cops never kill people. They never make mistakes. They never arrest the wrong people.

    Got a bridge for sale, wanna buy it?
    I never said that they didn’t kill anyone; nor, did I say they were perfect. I was just trying to point out that there must be a good reason why the vast majority (if not all) law enforcement agencies use career personnel. I honestly believe that law enforcement is something that you have to do a lot of to stay proficient at it. If not, you forget laws, procedures, etc…(similar to the discussion on more paramedics save lives yes/no)

    Also, law enforcement agencies that currently use reserves ensure that their people are trained. This is most likely due to the EXTREME liability involved with law enforcement; lets face it, fire departments are probably at the bottom of the list when it comes to lawsuits against a public agency for making a mistake (the list being fire, police, and ems). This is an area that a lot of fire departments are lacking in. How many police agencies can you show up at the office, fill out an application, and be a full blown law enforcement agent that same day? How many fire departments can you say that about? It all comes down to training….

    I seriously doubt that if law enforcement went all volunteer, that the number of shootings/use of force/wrongful arrest would stay at its current level.

    And in response to your question, no, I do not wish to purchase your bridge.

  19. #19
    Sr. Information Officer
    NJFFSA16's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    25 NW of the GW
    Posts
    8,434

    Wink

    I have a bridge to sell you...........
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
    Be Safe! Lookouts-Awareness-Communications-Escape Routes-Safety Zones

    *Gathering Crust Since 1968*
    On the web at www.section2wildfire.com

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,684

    Default

    And in response to your question, no, I do not wish to purchase your bridge
    Damn, no one wants that damn thing.


    It all comes down to training….
    Absolutely correct. It has nothing to do with whether they get a paycheck or not.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    Maverick9110E's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    OakRidge,NJ
    Posts
    366

    Default

    Originally posted by sexauer


    I never said that they didn’t kill anyone; nor, did I say they were perfect. I was just trying to point out that there must be a good reason why the vast majority (if not all) law enforcement agencies use career personnel. I honestly believe that law enforcement is something that you have to do a lot of to stay proficient at it. If not, you forget laws, procedures, etc…(similar to the discussion on more paramedics save lives yes/no)

    Also, law enforcement agencies that currently use reserves ensure that their people are trained. This is most likely due to the EXTREME liability involved with law enforcement; lets face it, fire departments are probably at the bottom of the list when it comes to lawsuits against a public agency for making a mistake (the list being fire, police, and ems). This is an area that a lot of fire departments are lacking in. How many police agencies can you show up at the office, fill out an application, and be a full blown law enforcement agent that same day? How many fire departments can you say that about? It all comes down to training….

    I seriously doubt that if law enforcement went all volunteer, that the number of shootings/use of force/wrongful arrest would stay at its current level.

    And in response to your question, no, I do not wish to purchase your bridge.

    could you please point me in the direction of the fire department that makes you a full blown fire fighter when you finish signing the application? good luck with that. cause im sure as hell not sitting in the middle of my 150 hour FF1 class for ****s and giggles, its a requirement.

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Dalmatian90's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,120

    Default

    I was just trying to point out that there must be a good reason why the vast majority (if not all) law enforcement agencies use career personnel.

    Q) What do you call one firefighter?

    A) A spectator.

    Q) What do you call two firefighters?

    A) An ambulance crew.

    Q) What do you call one Police Officer?

    A) Someone who can safely perform 90%+ of the service requests sent their way.

    There are some fundemental staffing differences & timelines involved between law enforcement and fire service -- actually, fire service v. just about everyone else. The amount of manpower, and the timeframe you need it, varies drastically from any other job I can think of.

    Are volunteer/reserve police officers necessarily more heavily trainend than full time officers? Not neccessarily.

    State of Massachussets, the Reserve/Intermediate Police Officer level is 120 hours. That's less than most FFI classes, less than most EMT classes. There's a fair number of R/I level police officers in MA; a statistic from several years back that surprised me was 1 in 7 police officers in California are volunteer or reserve.

    Get a person with FFI, FFII, and EMT you're up into the 350-400 hour range in my homestate today (Connecticut); that's not that dramatic of a difference from what most states look for in full-time police officers which usually falls in the 480-540 hour range.

    What's the hour requirements for paramedics these days?

    CT did away with elected Constables having police powers in 1984. We don't have much part-time law enforcement in this state as it is compared to places like MA, heck we have a lot *less* police overall than most states. A local thing, I guess.

    Professionalism and training as the cause of no "volunteer" police? Probably it plays a part -- but you also have to look at very fundemental differences of what services you provide. Police can have one or two officers and be very effective at taking reports, showing the badge, etc. How many working structure fires did you have in your community in the last year, compared to active, unstable police incidents that needed 12, 16, more police officers on scene right now to handle?
    IACOJ Canine Officer
    20/50

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber
    EFD840's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Eclectic (no, NOT electric), Alabama
    Posts
    1,510

    Default

    could you please point me in the direction of the fire department that makes you a full blown fire fighter when you finish signing the application? good luck with that. cause im sure as hell not sitting in the middle of my 150 hour FF1 class for ****s and giggles, its a requirement.
    I hate to tell you this, but there are many, many states that don't require any training for volunteer firefighters. My state is one of them. Any required training and/or duty restrictions on untrained personnel are entirely up to the individual departments.

    For that matter, it may come as a complete shock to sexauer but as I type this more than half of the 50 states don't have minimum career standards either.

    Check out this eye-opening report by the State of Indiana

  24. #24
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Berks County, PA
    Posts
    629

    Default

    Originally posted by EFD840
    I hate to tell you this, but there are many, many states that don't require any training for volunteer firefighters. My state is one of them. Any required training and/or duty restrictions on untrained personnel are entirely up to the individual departments.

    For that matter, it may come as a complete shock to sexauer but as I type this more than half of the 50 states don't have minimum career standards either.
    Count Pennsylvania among those states with no uniform requirements whatsoever. And I'm here to tell you it's no coincidence that we almost always have the "honor" of being #1 on the list of firefighter fatalities. Only California (on occasion) manages to knock PA out of the top spot on that dubious list, and only if there's been a particularly bad wildfire season on the west coast. In spite of this, I can probably name dozens of fire companies in PA where the Chief will gladly hand you your pager and fire gear, along with your key to the bar room, 5 minutes after you sign your application and write your first dues check.

    It's a disgrace. And, as much as the State Fire Commissioner has been doing everything he's empowered to do to put an end to this idiocy, it won't stop until the state legislature steps up and enacts laws that set real, enforceable requirements for firefighters in this state. Unfortunately, the people fighting hardest to stop this from happening are...you guessed it...say it with me now...volunteer firefighters in certain *cough* "less progressive" areas of the state. It's really a crying shame...statewide, we probably have the resources to fix the problem and just don't have the political will to do so.

    So, from where I sit, a bunch of volunteer cops who wander around the forests and farms south of Erie is just a quirky little annoyance as compared to the depth and breadth of ridiculousness that goes on around me every day.

    In the interest of fairness, I should point out that there are many sharp, well-trained, progressive volunteer departments in PA as well, as there are state agencies, such as the Fire Commissioner's office, Dept. of Community and Economic Development, and others, who are working very hard to build upon the positives in the fire service in PA to improve the situation state-wide. But individual departments can only do so much and individual agencies are constrained by their budgets and mandates...it all comes back to the state legislature. And that's what worries me.
    Last edited by bobsnyder; 03-16-2005 at 02:11 PM.

  25. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Covington, La
    Posts
    28

    Default

    Originally posted by Maverick9110E



    could you please point me in the direction of the fire department that makes you a full blown fire fighter when you finish signing the application? good luck with that. cause im sure as hell not sitting in the middle of my 150 hour FF1 class for ****s and giggles, its a requirement.
    Sure....

    Bush volunteer fire department
    Lincoln Parish volunteer fire department
    Sun VOLUNTEER fire department

    Well...I shouldnt say Lincoln parish because you have to go through a 10 hour course to be a volunteer "firefighter"

    Those are the three that I have been around, i'm sure there are many more.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register