1. #1
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    Default Lawsuit over gear.....

    Firehouse.com story
    It is ashamed that someone has to get injured or die for this to come out.

    From the article:
    Now a government agency is considering whether firefighters should be warned about a potential defect in the gear - known by the brand name Securitex and made with a material called Duralite - that could cause those injuries.
    It is strange that I made almost this same statement on here a few years back and have pictures of this type gear that has severe burn patterns on it and also pictures of the resulting skin burns. I was chastised for saying it and subsequently verbally attacked by their rep at trade show.

    Under extreme heat, fibers in the Duralite break down, creating a "screen-door" effect that allows heat into the gear's interior layers, the study found
    Before I even knew about the test I said that after it is burned you can hold it up and it looks like a screen door.... Again...the manufacturers rep flatly denied this fact but did not care to see my pictures! This interaction with him took place in 2003. (after the testing)
    Last edited by captstanm1; 03-21-2005 at 09:28 PM.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

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    Interesting. We have this gear. Our safety committee has been looking into the problems with it and we have seen the videos and looked at the test results. We are not happy we are getting this gear. Even more frustrating, the decision was pretty much made by one guy, a union brother, who went with the cheapest bid even though we made it known we did not like this gear. A city not far away had this same gear, after a couple guys got burned we have heard that securitex agreed to replace the shells with PBI as long as the department agreed to a gag order. We are definitely not happy wearing a "screen door" around.

  3. #3
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    Exclamation gear failure

    Through my schooling, I have been fortunate enough to have done some turnout gear testing in conjunction with the US Navy. The project we worked on was evaluating their current gear and some newly designed gear. As part of the research prior to beginning the project, we examined as many known testing methods and procedures used throughout the United States. The majoroty of the testing is done using North Carolina's method (Pyroman) and DuPont's method (Thermoman). These two methods are inherently the same, employing eight propane burners in similar configurations around mannequins equipped with skin simulant sensors. These testing methods are the ones used to "rate" trunout gear's performance. After reading that article, I would be curious to see North Carolina's report to see what inaccuracies there may have been. Also, I would have to agree that there is no turnout gear available that could protect someone entirely from burns, however, to what extent was this gentleman burned? Where was he burned? What condition was the facepiece of his SCBA? What was the condition of the rest of the gear? What were the conditions he faced at the fire? Alot of open questions left by that article. However, I do have to agree that Securitex gear is not very reliable or trustworthy. It follows the old joke, "What do you call someone who graduates last in his class from medical school?......Doctor". Just because something meets minimal requirements, doesn't always make it a good product.

    Stay safe.
    Jonathan Martin
    martinj@wpi.edu
    WPI Mechanical Engineering
    "Be safe, use smoke detectors...be safer, sleep with a firefighter..."

  4. #4
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    Captstan
    Do you still have those pics? I would be interested in seeing them along with a summary of your personal expierence or data you've collected. We have a few sets of that gear in service and I'd like to have as much information as possible in order to get it off the floor. Feel free to email me at srose911@firehousemail.com Thanks in advance.
    COFire
    PROTECTING THOSE WHO DEFEND AMERICA ===================================

  5. #5
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    Question

    I also would like to see this pictures. joe45756@fuse.net

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    WOW ............I surprised I had to bump this ............most fascinating ..........
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  7. #7
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    For those of you that have asked....I will try and find the pictures. I can not remember where I put them and will have to have them put on disc before I can get them to you as they are all in prints...... I know.....that is antique!!!

    As far as data goes, I do not have any data. Just observations from what I have seen as I travel around and talk with people who wear it. I know two neighboring departments to mine have dropped the Duralite shell and have switched to Basofil. There reasoning they gave to me was that they are leary of the fabric and had not so good luck with it holding up.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  8. #8
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    CAPT, not sure what shell we had on our Securi-junk,but I had the same screen door problem. The stuff we had was made probably seven years ago. This stuff is total junk to me. We purchased it once and did not take long to realize how bad it was.

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    Thumbs down

    We were supplied a "test" set by the manufacture to attempt to get our department to change over. No one liked this stuff. Went away real fast.

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    We are continually checking our gear for problems now. This "screen door effect" is not just caused by exposure to heat. We just took a pair of pants out of service today because of the "problem". The area of question is on the back of the leg mid thigh in height. Its an area of 4"wide that tapers at each end across the entire back of the leg. Now to cause a burn like this would need a burning beam to land on this guys leg (never happened) or lean against something hot ( I think I would move long before my gear burnt up!). It is only on one leg - not both. This is the securitex 2F3. We have also noted this screen door in other "odd" places - not in normal wear places.
    Keep an eye on your gear if it securitex - I personally dont trust the stuff anymore.
    -I have learned people will forget what you said,
    -People will forget what you did,
    -But people will never forget how you made them feel!

  11. #11
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    Still looking for those pics dave......been busy and not able to do full search yet!
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  12. #12
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    Wow ... just looked at the brand of my new turnout gear as this name sounded famailiar and ... whammoo. Printing up the article now to take to my Chief and see if he wants to do anything. I beleive the last 3 years all the gear we have purchased has been this stuff.

  13. #13
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    LaFire......All I can say is DANGER DANGER
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  14. #14
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    Capt - thanks for looking, I can certainly understand being busy. We are working on sending a set of our Securitex for "independant testing". See if they can figure out why the fibers are breaking down. Will keep everyone posted when we get the results.

    LAFire - when examining the gear pull the inners out (assuming it is securitex 2f3)Ours is gold. On the inside of the jacket look for any flaking - believe that is the start of things. On the outside look for discolored patches, on closer examination you may find what looks like a screen door. On the inner liners look for burnt fabric - this is also a sign of malfunctioning outer shells - or exposure to extreme heat. Ill work on some pictures to post.
    -I have learned people will forget what you said,
    -People will forget what you did,
    -But people will never forget how you made them feel!

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    My county switched to this Securitex crap as well. So far the biggest issue we have noticed is that the shoulder patches and knee patches tend to "bunch up" when exposed to heat. Luckily I still have a set of Globe PBI, and I am trying to take care of it (as much as possible anyway). Hopefully the county will realize that this lowest bidder gear is a problem and sign up with Globe again by the time I need new gear.

  16. #16
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    Default

    We run some Securitex gear as well (switched over late last year to a different brand, so we're no longer buying it). I don't think all Securitex gear is having this screen-door effect, just the gear using Securitex's proprietary shell material, right?

    We had a Basofil shell specified on our Securitex stuff, and while I have other issues with the gear (assmebly quality, fitment, etc.), I don't think we're having the wear-through effect mentioned here.

    If anyone has used a Basofil shell on Securitex product, and has the screen-door effects, please let me know. Gear is my responsibility at the department, and every piece of Securitex will be pulled if I can prove it to be unsafe.

  17. #17
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    NPFD - I think the basofil stuff is all right as it is a different material. The securitex 2F3 is a 60/40 blend (more of a weave Nomex/Kevlar). It is the way it is assembled we think as to why the components are seperating as they are. Ill try and gets some picks up in the next day or so.

    I presume you will have the same premature wearing problems with the baso fill gear - poor workmanship!
    -I have learned people will forget what you said,
    -People will forget what you did,
    -But people will never forget how you made them feel!

  18. #18
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    What's this "will have" thing? We have already encountered the premature wear associated with their gear. I took over gear purchasing and had to buy one round of the stuff under "my watch" and promptly switched. We're currently ordering more Cairns (one more member to fit) and that should put a great deal of the older Securitex stuff into spare or recruit use. I wear Securitex from 2001, and it has issues (did from early on), and I'm not terribly hard on my gear.

    I will say in their defense, the last round of Securitex stuff we bought in 2004 was built better than previous batches, but the damage had already been done. It still doesn't hold a candle to what I've seen from a durability of stitching, etc. that I've seen from Globe/Cairns and Morning Pride.

    Our Globe stuff from 1999 has held up remarkably well. The first round of Cairns stuff we bought early this year is doing very well, so lets hope that Globe/Cairns quality is still built into their stuff. The switch to Cairns was only to buy from a top-notch dealer in the area.

  19. #19
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    Thumbs down Gear Failure

    The stories are mostly the same when it comes to the failures related to the Securtex gear. We not only had outer shell failure but zippers and seams did not hold up at all. We had the kevlar/nomex outer shell and had numerous staff with scald burns. When we talked to Securtex about the issue and the related flameboy tests they explained that the material was made to degrade on purpose in order to take the heat away. I guess this is ok for a single exposure but folks we all know what it's like being the real flameboy!

  20. #20
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    This is the sleeve of my old Jacket. Taken out of service due to the screen door affect noted above the 3M. My old stuff is currently on Rescue Randy.
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    -I have learned people will forget what you said,
    -People will forget what you did,
    -But people will never forget how you made them feel!

  21. #21
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    Same gear different angle. These pictures are of the left arm. The right arm is in the same shape.
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    -I have learned people will forget what you said,
    -People will forget what you did,
    -But people will never forget how you made them feel!

  22. #22
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    This gear is Brand new and came full of blotches like this. This is the inside of the coat along the back. Blotches are worse inside the arms.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    -I have learned people will forget what you said,
    -People will forget what you did,
    -But people will never forget how you made them feel!

  23. #23
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    These are from the pants of a fairly new set of gear. Didnt turn out very well but the discoloration is "screen door".
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    -I have learned people will forget what you said,
    -People will forget what you did,
    -But people will never forget how you made them feel!

  24. #24
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    Same pants, different angle
    -I have learned people will forget what you said,
    -People will forget what you did,
    -But people will never forget how you made them feel!

  25. #25
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    ooops
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    -I have learned people will forget what you said,
    -People will forget what you did,
    -But people will never forget how you made them feel!

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