Public Information Disaster-MN

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

There was an extremely tragic school shooting in MN on Monday. 10 dead. Typical Goth teenage shooter. Same old, same old. Except for one thing...

Did anyone else notice that the FD "Director" was giving press interviews regarding the tactical operations of the PD, details about the invest., details about the victims, etc? If you remember in the Columbine incident, there was a very organized approach to PI that actually has been studied and modeled.

For the guys up there, what happened here? Was this guy the designated incident PIO? Is he also a Police Director? Has there been any discussion about this up there?

[Dalmatian90]

I noticed the same thing George -- the Fire Chief was being quoted giving a lot of information/details you'd normally leave to the PD.

[fireguy919]

probably get in trouble for this. but here it goes. small town like my. that would be our chief. evryone falls under him. good guy and a good chief just SHOULD NOT ever talk to the press. but that was strange or so i thought.

[hfd4144]

For many of us the fire chief would only speak about fire operations and the police chief would speak about theirs. I live in this state and the only thing that comes to mind, is this incident took place on an indian reservation. They have their own set of laws, police, fire ect.. The only people according to our news that have any right to do or say anything that would override this incident, is the FBI. They have the right to step in and take controll. By the way they did step in and had a press conference to give the details of the incident. What the "Director" was doing was most likely his job, since they do not run on the same notion as the rest of us. If anyone is looking for datail of this tragic incident I would suggest they see our local news stations: www.kstp.com, www.kare11.com or www.wcco.com they have better information than I can give you.

Take care and let us not forget, these victims did nothing wrong to have their lives ended in such a tragic manner.

God Bless the families and those that knew the victims. you are in our thoughts and prayers as these days continue to unfold.

hfd4144

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by hfd4144
For many of us the fire chief would only speak about fire operations and the police chief would speak about theirs. I live in this state and the only thing that comes to mind, is this incident took place on an indian reservation. They have their own set of laws, police, fire ect.. The only people according to our news that have any right to do or say anything that would override this incident, is the FBI. They have the right to step in and take controll. By the way they did step in and had a press conference to give the details of the incident. What the "Director" was doing was most likely his job, since they do not run on the same notion as the rest of us. If anyone is looking for datail of this tragic incident I would suggest they see our local news stations: www.kstp.com, www.kare11.com or www.wcco.com they have better information than I can give you.

Take care and let us not forget, these victims did nothing wrong to have their lives ended in such a tragic manner.

God Bless the families and those that knew the victims. you are in our thoughts and prayers as these days continue to unfold.

hfd4144

It is my understanding, and I may be mistaken, that any criminal activity on an Indian Reservation is a federal law enforcement matter. It makes complete sense that the FBI assumed jurisdiction. I still have the question as to how this guy can act as a spokesman for federal law enforcement.

[Sleuth]

Law Enforcement in Indian Country (which is a legal term) is generally divided into locals and the FBI. The "Bureau" handles what are called the "7 deadly sins" - Murder, rape, I don't recall the others. Depending on the type of Treaty (there are at least 5 types), the local Sheriff may or may not have any juridiction - same with the State Police. Some Tribes have Public Safety Directors.


I live near the Navaho & Apache Reservations. On the Navaho, the Sheriff has joint jurisdiction with the Tribal police. On the Apache Res., it's the tribal police and the Bureau of Indian Affairs Police ( a Federal Agency).

Police forces tend to be very territorial. When it comes to Fire, we all jump in to help. I was in Law Enforcement, now I'm a FF. It feels a lot different.

[Dalmatian90]

It is my understanding, and I may be mistaken, that any criminal activity on an Indian Reservation is a federal law enforcement matter.

Not neccessarily...

http://doc.narf.org/nill/Codes/mpcod...et2crimlaw.htm

and scroll down to:

CHART OF CRIMINAL JURISDICTION IN INDIAN COUNTRY BY PARTIES AND CRIMES

Basically, if doesn't involve Indians, it's a State issue. If it involves Indians, it *could* be a Federal issue.

In the case of both of Connecticut's Federal Indian Reservations, the specific legislation that created them is believed to give what would normally be Federal jurisdiction over "Major Crimes" to the State of Connecticut. The Tribes & The State have a Treaty between them that works out the mechanics.

AFAIK, this hasn't actually been tested in court, but it's what the Tribes and the State believe exist. I guess Defense Attornies when they go, "Hmmm, if I challenge this and win, I get to go to Federal Court instead...um, no thank you, I'll stay in State Court!"

If it's Indian v. Indian the Tribal Police & Courts handle the matter.

If it involves a non-Indian, the Connecticut State Police come in and make the arrest. CSP maintains "Casino Units" on site at both casinos. A typical one might be Tribal Police detain someone for a DUI in the parking lot, CSP come in to make the actual arrest and Connecticut prosecutes.

What you said George I think is *generally* true, but it's an area of law that is a veritable rat's nest.

[Lewiston2FF]

Since George's thread has gone off on a slight tangent, I thought I would add my experience to the discussion. (Sorry George)

Approximately 1/3 of my response territory is the Tuscarora Indian Reservation. They do not have their own police, public safety, or fire department. My understanding of the local situation is for the police to have jurisdiction on the reservation they must be "invited". This invitation is an open one extended by the council mothers and can be retracted at any time. The same goes for our fire calls. Often if we are called we have been invited. Fortunately our relationship with the tribal leaders is good. There was a time in the not too distant past where is was not uncommon for a situation to get hostile while in the process of taking care of a call.

Sorry for the tangent, just thought I would contribute to the discussion.

[Sleuth]

Prosicution of offenders can get interesting in Indian Country.

For example, on the Navaho Res., for a crime not one of the '7 deadly sins':
Tribal member vs. tribal member : Tribal court
Tribal member vs. non-indian : State Court
Tribal Memner vs. Indian non-tribal member: Federal Court
Non-Indian vs. non-Indian: Federal Court

So the same crime could end up in any of the three courts. A few years ago, we had a guy commit a crime and say he was a non-indian. He got convicted in State court. Then, he made a claim to be an Indian, and wanted to be re-tried in Federal court. Federal judge said: too bad, so sad, got to state prision.

Indians have to be "enrolled members of a Federally recognized tribe" for it to count. The kicker? Each tribe decides how much (or little) indian blood allows membership. So, a tribe with a tiny reservation back East is the largest, because they accept something like 1/128th. The Navahos are (IIRC) 1/16th.

[RalphSafety]

To get back to the original theme of the post, I don't find it that unusual that the fire director acted as spokesman, although he may have said things he should not have said. This occurred in a remote area, with a relatively small population, and although the FBI is leading the investigation, they were likely not on scene for a while.

During these types of breaking stories, the media will bombard any agency in the area with inquiries and badger them for information. They won't stop until someone gives them a statement.

I don't know if the local agencies had any policy for dealing with the media, many smaller forces don't, and people from all over the world will call during major events like this, totally overwhelming them. The guy likely stepped in to fill a need, while the police dealt with 2 crime scenes, and the loss of one of their own officers.
It gives everyone a lesson in what to expect during a major crisis.

Columbine happened in a large, wealthy, jurisdiction that had lots of resources and probably had dealt with major events before, but I'm sure Red Lake had never had to cope with anything like this.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

I'm sure they haven't either. But I would guess that the FBI was not veru happy with the local fire director acting as the official law enforcement spokesman.

[enginehouse2]

In some smaller districts the local FD Chief may also be the PD Chief.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Originally posted by enginehouse2
In some smaller districts the local FD Chief may also be the PD Chief.

I know. That was why I was asking. Do you know that to be the case in this area?

[hwoods]

Originally posted by fireguy919
probably get in trouble for this. but here it goes. small town like my. that would be our chief. evryone falls under him. good guy and a good chief just SHOULD NOT ever talk to the press. but that was strange or so i thought.

You ARE kidding, Right? Never talk to the press? I call or email the Editor of our local paper, on a regular basis. You want good relations with the media at all times, you have to be well acquainted with them, and be accessible to them (within reason) when News is happening. Every FD/VFD should have a person to function as the department's Public Information Officer, and he/she should be known to the local media, and work with them on matters that are newsworthy. George, sorry, a bit off track, and I agree, strange scenario you asked about....

[Weruj1]

George I did notice that too..................I know here I would not want utter one iota about this if it didnt affect "fire operations"

[enginehouse2]

No George I'm not familiar with that area's emergency services. It does seem unusual though.

[NJFFSA16]

By AMY FORLITI
Associated Press Writer
RED LAKE, Minn. (AP) - The father and sister of a Red Lake
school shooting victim on Wednesday criticized officials on this
Indian reservation for the strict limits they've placed on
journalists trying to cover the story.
A day earlier, police with guns drawn arrested two photographers
and confiscated camera equipment. Reporters and photographers have
been corralled in a parking lot at the reservation jail and have
been told not to leave Minnesota 1, the main highway, as they enter
and exit the reservation.
Francis Brun and Victoria Brun, the father and sister of Red
Lake High School security guard Derrick Brun, said they and other
family members want to share stories of those killed.
"The media shouldn't be censored like this," Victoria Brun
said Wednesday. "The families want people to know about their
loved ones."
The Bruns said a cousin, Nancy Richards, was dispatched by the
family Wednesday to make a statement about Derrick to the media.
They said Tribal Chairman Floyd Jourdain stopped her and questioned
her, though he ultimately allowed her to make the statement.
"I think it's depriving people of the right to express their
feelings," Francis Brun said.
Jourdain did not immediately return a telephone message from The
Associated Press.
Derrick Brun, 28, was a security guard at Red Lake High School
and the first person at the school to be shot by alleged gunman
Jeff Weise.
On Tuesday, after journalists spread out across town to cover
the deadliest school shooting since Columbine, the band soon banned
reporters and photographers from knocking on doors and from leaving
the main highway through town.
"Exiting this road constitutes trespassing," according to a
flyer handed out by tribal officials. "Repeated attempts to
interview witnesses is viewed as interfering with a federal
investigation. Under the Authority of the Red Lake Tribal Chairman,
you may be removed from the Reservation."
Later, tribal police arrested two photographers, including one
working for The AP. They confiscated the AP photographer's camera
and an electronic disk and kept a fanny pack containing
photographic equipment belonging to the other photographer, who was
working for Getty Images.
The AP photographer, J. Pat Carter, said the two were driving on
the main highway, which they believed was permissible, taking
pictures of a roadside memorial.
A moment later, several police cars pulled them over and
confronted the pair with guns drawn.
One of the officers said Carter had a gun in his vehicle. Carter
insisted he had no weapon and believed the officers saw his photo
equipment. After being handcuffed briefly, the two were released.
After the AP appealed to the tribe, the gear of both photographers
was returned Wednesday afternoon and appeared to be in good working
order.
In most U.S. communities, police could not chase journalists off
public streets. But the U.S. Department of Justice classifies
Indian tribes as "domestic dependent nations." While Congress has
power over Indian affairs, tribes have sovereign powers over their
members and their territory.
Kevin Washburn, a University of Minnesota law professor who
specializes in law on Indian reservations, said the tribe has the
power to say who can enter the reservation. Although tribes
generally cannot infringe on First Amendment rights, there's no
outside enforcement.
"They could close the reservation down to reporters, basically,
and say, 'Sue us in tribal court,"' Washburn said.
The Red Lake reservation is one of two reservations in Minnesota
where only the federal government has jurisdiction over major
crimes, said a spokeswoman for the U.S. Attorney's office in
Minneapolis. The other is the much smaller Boise Forte reservation.
State prosecutors handle major crimes on the other reservations in
Minnesota.
"They're very independent," Washburn said of the Red Lake
band. "It's a place where state authority doesn't extend."
---
Amy Forliti can be reached at aforliti(at)ap.org

(Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

In most U.S. communities, police could not chase journalists off public streets. But the U.S. Department of Justice classifies
Indian tribes as "domestic dependent nations." While Congress has
power over Indian affairs, tribes have sovereign powers over their
members and their territory.

There is nothing else to say.