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    Default British firefighters furious!!!!

    Firemen banned from kip

    FULL NEWS INDEX






    By ANDY RUSSELL

    A FIRE chief has sparked fury by taking away station beds — to stop the night-shift tradition of kipping at work.

    Barry Dixon has ordered 400 be removed from 36 dormitories in Greater Manchester.

    Firefighters have been told they will be expected to train and make safety inspections during the 15-hour shift.

    Crews are traditionally allowed to doze between midnight and 7am if it stays quiet.

    But county fire chief Mr Dixon said: “I can’t think of any other occupation where a situation like this still exists.”

    One fireman said: “It is not sleeping on the job — we need to be fresh for an emergency.”

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    I hope they know the result will be higher levels of sick leave and medical leave, accidents, cost of operations, fuel, wear and tear on vehilces, complaints from civilians for loud apparatus on their streets at night... etc. Overtime to cover those out sick and injured..etc.

    These idiots will reap what they sow.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 03-28-2005 at 02:24 PM.

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    Sounds like a "manager" instead of a chief.
    Last edited by ThNozzleman; 03-28-2005 at 10:35 PM.

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    These guys that come up with these stupid ideas have spent to long behind a desk and should try working a 15 hour shift.

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    This was always going to happen. After the 2002/3 industrial dispute, 'they' (The Politicians and Managers) promised that nothing would change in the Modernisation agenda...now they are steadily changing things for the worse....you have heard me on here speak with pride about our low number of LODD's for the UK...usually around one per year. Guess what....we have had 5 since last May!!!! Apart from the odd 'Tragedy' where a bunch of Guys got killed on one job, we haven't seen figures this high since the bad old days of the 70's.

    Al the experience is retiring, they are taking in people who suit the Political Quota's...you know what I mean, this brings lower standards, less stringent Training, more time spent on Community Initiatives, most Training now focused on CBRN/Terrorism, and despite Fires fast approaching the 1,000,000 per year mark, we are letting our young people out into a dangerous World with training well below the Standards of the past decades!!!!

    Nozzleman...how perceptive of you.... The term Manager is being widely adopted in the UK Fire Service...our current rank structure has been deigned to 'Militaristic' to suit 'those who the service wants to attract' The entire rank system previously with ranks like Station Officer, Divisional Officer, Assistant Chief Fire Officer...etc... have all been streamlined, we now have Crew Manager, Watch (Shift) Manager, Station Manager, Group Manager, Area Manager and Brigade Manager for Chief of Department!!!!

    Greater Manchester Fire Service...the one that 'Brigade Manager' Formerly Chief Fire Officer Dixon is in charge of is one of the biggest in the UK...after London and West Midlands. This is a very busy City Brigade probably comparable to Chicago, that has a lot of Fire Duty. If they can make this work in the Big City Brigades (No Doubt London will Follow soon) the whole of the UK will be bed free within a couple of years...then who knows who will adopt in Next...

    Mayor of NY to Mayor of London...."So your Firefighters don't sleep at night anymore?"
    "Nope, we got rid of the beds a few years ago"
    "Well, They are similar cities with similar issues, I will do the same"

    Believe me, they will not understand the tactical issues they will look at budget sheets, number of calls, City Demographics...take the EMS from FDNY and LFB/FDNY are frighteningly similar.

    The only hope in the US is that you Guys are not on National Conditions of Service... a blessing for us at times, but a real pain at others.
    Last edited by SteveDude; 03-28-2005 at 03:53 PM.
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    Steve, did this not happen a little while back but the beds went back in after a walk out? I had heard of this happening but as I say I think the issue is "on the back burner"
    United Kingdom branch, IACOJ.

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    Mart,
    I'm afraid not. Mr Dixon sent a letter out to all Station Commanders in GMC last week, he stated the beds are going but they are to get feedback from the Stations with regard to which shifts the Troops wish to work... stay on 9's and 15's, go to 12 & 12 or to the dreaded 3x8's.

    I have heard a few other Brigades are changing or are about to change. W.Mids are going to 12's and I heard that Derbyshire are also changing.

    The whole issue is being discussed over on the UK forum (Not the 30k one) the one I am involved in... UK Forum we try to stay away from Politics leaving that to 30k or UK fire as it is now known, but inevitably it comes up on issues like this. Check it out, we also have a few of our US Brothers on as well.
    Steve Dude
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    'Irony'... It's a British thing.

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    sounds like a bean counter was involved in that one

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    Thumbs down

    thats just plain 'ol messed up !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    This is rediculous!!!
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
    IACOJ

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    Default Insult to injury

    Steve-please tell me that WestSussex Control are not part and parcel of the Council library service--I can see it now "Sorry Madam, the fact that you want the latest Mills and Boon romance does not take preference over the 20 pump fire that is going on at this moment!"

    No beds -I wonder how many experienced firefighters will pull the pin? Better yet what will replace these guys?

    Boy am I glad that I had the best years in the job.

    Perhaps the Div Buggy could incorporate Meals on Wheels with the B.A cylinder run?

    Rope off the appliance bay and turn it into a Kindergarten for working Mums--the opportunities are endless.
    "If you thought it was hard getting into the job--wait until you have to hang the "fire gear"up and walk away!"
    Harry Lauder 1981.Me on the left!

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    So they want you to train during night tours, eh?

    How about nightly hose and ladder evolutions on the street in front of Mr. Dixon's residence... after all, if our brothers across the pond can't sleep, then why should he?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    I was wondering what they were supposed to inspect ? ...........oh wait .....Mr Dixon's house !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    maybe it's tony blairs government that just do not like beds after all they don't have enough in the hospitals.

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    From all the "manager" positions , it sounds like Walmart moved
    to the UK and is trying to overtake the fire service!

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    Originally posted by bushmaster
    From all the "manager" positions , it sounds like Walmart moved
    to the UK and is trying to overtake the fire service!
    Walmart did move to the UK a few years ago and took over a major supermarket group (ASDA) so it would not surprise me if they did not try to take over the fire service

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    I Thank that is bull. You all shood drive by Mr. Dixon's residence
    siren's and lights on when he ask you all what is going on. say Drivers traning do that all night long then he say gees i wish there sleep

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    That is why I love my 24 hour shifts. Work 24 and off 48. Anything else and I wouldn't do it.

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    The ... Manager crap is starting to happen down here in Australia too - and it's strange, as soon as they change their title from "Regional Officer" to "Operations Manager", they start acting like managers instead of operational people.
    Busy polishing the stacked tips on the deckgun of I.A.C.O.J. Engine#1

    ...and before you ask - YES I have done a Bloody SEARCH!

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    Default Re: British firefighters furious!!!!

    Originally posted by pengman
    Firefighters have been told they will be expected to train and make safety inspections during the 15-hour shift.
    How in the hell are they going to do inspections? Everything's closed!

    I'm with Gonzo, make sure to conduct a nightly drill right on Mr. Dixon's street....

    Granted, in my job we don't get to sleep either (12 hour shifts) because we have patrol and dispatch duties...but geez, this is ridiculous......
    Chief Dwayne LeBlanc
    Paincourtville Volunteer Fire Department
    Paincourtville, LA

    "I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream — and I hope you don't find this too crazy — is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were a fire, calling the fire department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if their houses are burning down, saying, 'Whatever you do, don't call the fire department!' That would be bad."
    — C.D. Bales, "Roxanne"

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    Not to throw a cold towel on the discussion....

    I know firefighting is very different from industry, however, the logic with the politicians will be, in industry they work 12 hour shifts so why can't firefighters. I know in VT IBM as well as several other manufactuers, worked 12 hour shifts (36-48 hours a week, alternating). If we are going to resist this, we will need FACTS and research to justify the posistion that the fire service can't do this.

    If we have some data .... we can make a case, but without it, we are dead in the water and risk not having public support.

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    LaFireEducator...that's the same kind of shift I work. As I said, if you legitimately have something to do all night, i.e. in a plant that operates 24/7/365, 12 hour shifts make sense.

    Fire departments traditionally work a 24 hour shift (I know some don't, bear with me...). Obviously requiring someone to stay awake and active for a full 24 hour period (non-emergency, mind you) would be foolish, and probably illegal.

    But you want facts? Here's the biggie....12 hour shifts require 4 shifts to cover 24 hours a day. The traditional 24-hour fire department rotation only requires 3 shifts...that's 25% less manpower. Economics dictates that for a given number of man hours, it's cheaper to have less people working more hours than to hire enough people to cover the hours (due to benefits, administrative costs, etc.).

    Also, by law workers cannot be required to work more than 16 hours, other than in cases of extreme emergency. The fire service gets around this requirement because they are allowed "down time" during a 24 hour shift...i.e., they are allowed to rest (calls permitting) and not required to actively "work" the entire time.
    Chief Dwayne LeBlanc
    Paincourtville Volunteer Fire Department
    Paincourtville, LA

    "I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream — and I hope you don't find this too crazy — is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were a fire, calling the fire department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if their houses are burning down, saying, 'Whatever you do, don't call the fire department!' That would be bad."
    — C.D. Bales, "Roxanne"

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    A Tri-Data Consultant report for the city of Chicago looked into elminating the beds and sleeping and instituting a shift system similar to what most police depts run as in 3-8 hour tours.

    What they found was that a number of Departments tried these type shifts and ALL within years returned to a system where the men on the night tour could lay down for rest and they reduced the change of tours from 3 to two or 1 in a 24 hour period. The worst expeience that the consultants noted was in Seattle,WA Toledo,Ohio and in the Kansas City, MO FD.

    Reasons:
    -Medical and Sick Leave Skyrocketed.
    -Injuries sky rocketed
    -Overtime budget exploded.
    -Staff requried to figure out staffing chages was much larger than expected.
    -Cost of additional details, wash-up time, overtime runs.

    Other factors not forseen by the bureaucrats (but probably by every fireman and chief! )
    -There are few places to inspect during the night tour. Only Strip-clubs, 24 hour video/adult stores, Bars/Dinners. And most times the real managment persons that one would like to speak to in regards to building inspection issues don't work late at night.
    -There is no reason to have fire engines "patrol" the streets at night for fires and emergencies. This only costs more in fuel and wear on very expensive apparatus.
    -Also they never thought the general public would object to large diesel fueled rig driving down their street in the dead of night...somewhat similar to why there are prescribed truck routes in cites so residential neghborhoods don't have to deal with loud trucks cutting through their streets.

    There is little to no benefit of using this type system with fire depts. I'm sure this nonsense will pass for them as it has passed for others.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 04-01-2005 at 10:01 PM.

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    We had a department in my county try that about 20 years ago. Lasted about 3 months. All it took was tons of complaints from the public about the FF's out at 0300 training, mowing the lawn and assorted other noise makeing activities
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

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    Seem to remember reading on here sometime last year about a dept. here in the US who had a chief that did the same thing...they also were told they were to train during those night hours so they did just that...they arrived at 3 AM in front of the bosses house and begun running a drill "flowing water"...

    The chief's wife was not too happy with the engine running at high RPM's outside their window & apparently with her "encouragement", the chief had the beds returned to the firehouse within several hours of the "training" incident.

    I agree with others who posed the question asking what are these guys supposed to inspect at 3 AM?? Nothing's open...maybe the chief I mean brigade manager would like them to do a forcible entry "drill"
    on a locked establishment so they can inspect it??? Kinda kill two birds with one stone....

    UYYY...you gotta wonder what these guys are thinking...

    Just my 2 cents...Stay Safe...and sound in your beds!!!

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