Thread: Unreal!

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    Default Unreal!

    The NYC City Council is attempting to pass a new law. They want to establish two lists for firefighter canidates from the same test. One would be the Top 50% of test scores, the other would be the BOTTOM 50% of test scores. And you guessed it,....they can hire future FDNY firefighters off EITHER list. Check out the NYC web site and look under City Council, Public Saftey Purposals.

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    i dont c how this is unreal in my opinion those entrance exams are all stupid , just because a man isnt any good at a test doesnt make him any less of a fireman !!

    hell i scored a 92 on that test and i will never get called and just cause some book jockey scores a 98 i guess he is a better fireman .

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    Keep all the book smart people. I want street smart people.

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    Might just be me, but I'd rather have the best of the best, all around.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    And considering you're going to be taking all sorts of tests from books in the academy, if you can't do well on the entrance one, you're not going to make it out of the academy either. Some folks are bad at taking tests and study their *****es off for it to score high. It's called taking initiative.

    Doesn't make their proposal any better, it's still stupid. Wonder what nimrod came up with that as being a good idea.

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    MattyJ,

    Any chance you can post either the site or the article. I can seem to find it.

    IMHO - I thinks it's a great idea. Why should someone with military time, residency credit get in before someone who doesn't qualify for the same "perks". I took the test, no residency, no military, I got a couple wrong on the written, aced the physical. From what I understand, with regards to the list that is active now, canditates w/no perks who scored 100/100; their list numbers are starting out in the 2000 range!

    Might just be me, but I'd rather have the best of the best, all around.
    Bones ...

    What's you definition of the best? I have two college degrees, got a couple questions wrong, I think I'd make a pretty damn good fireman.

    Just my MHO though.
    Last edited by sbfdco1; 03-30-2005 at 04:26 PM.
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    Highest test scores. And then highest scores in physical testing.

    A guy with 2 college degrees and zero questions wrong.

    Remember, when someone goes to the FDNY academy, prior experience means 0. You are there to learn their way of doing things, not how to improve what you already know, not how to adapt what you know. A guy with 15 years experience is the same as a guy with 15 weeks experience.


    Why should someone with military time, residency credit get in before someone who doesn't quilify for the same perks
    I agree with you on this.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Originally posted by Bones42
    Highest test scores. And then highest scores in physical testing.
    It takes more than scoring well on a written exam, same for the physical. You want a candidate that is focused, disciplined, respectful, can follow orders. If I aced every exam I took in college, well Id probably be a brain surgeon. This new legislation gives two candidates a better opportunity to get on FDNY. Take the last FDNY list for example, the city exhausted the previous list, are you tell me that the guys in the first third are going to make a better fireman that the second third, I dont by it.

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    I thinks it's a great idea. Why should someone with military time, residency credit get in before someone who doesn't qualify for the same "perks".

    It's not like the "rules of the game" are secret.

    Want the extra points? Join the military for a few years, then move to the city.

    I really don't have a problem with Cities having bonus categories -- whether they're prior military service or college credits beyond the minimum requirements, or even requiring residency.

    It's their money and if they want to give extra consideration to people who live there, fine!

    But leave things fair and don't start up shenanigans like top 50/bottom 50 lists.

    For large departments, I can't even begin to imagine how you would operate recruiting without civil service exams. It would immediately devolve into a who-do-you-know and who-got-the-scotch system -- too few openings, too many applicants. And if you think you have a remote chance now with test scores, you'd have no chance without them unless you knew somebody.
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    As far as the extrs-credit points...who do you think came up with them?? The city. The "exhausted list". I can tell you, it often shows in some of the new guys.
    The FDNY test is basic reading, and commen sense. So I wouldnt call them "Book smart" just because they scored high on the written. Its more like, basic high school education, and commen sense. Alot of it is how serious you take it. Not rushing, double checking answers, re-reading the questions, checking all the possible answers. The physical is not tough. Pretty much average shape, and very firefighting specific. If you fail 2 out of, I think 6 or 7 events, you'd be on the bottom part of the list.
    So lets see. Id rather keep it like it is. A VERY fair system that nets you "Book Smart, "Street smart" physically fit canidates.

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    Default read the code...

    That idea is....

    [size=huge]

    NI[/size]( ! )[size=huge]NE
    [/size]
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Default Re: read the code...

    Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
    That idea is....

    [size=huge]

    NI[/size]( ! )[size=huge]NE
    [/size]

    Vey well stated!

    (Who wants to find out that the guys on the bottom 50% are being sent when your ***** is on the line?!?)
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    When it's time to take a promotional test and some of the "bottom half" don't score well and don't get promoted, you can bet anything they'll raise hell about that test being unfair too. If a person won't put the time into studying,or getting into shape for the physical, for a job or promotion they shouldn't gripe about not being at the top.

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    The entire proposal is a load of crap. NYC has the absolute most fair hiring practices I've seen of any fire department. Hell, it's not even the fire department who does the hiring. It's a matter of who applies, if minorities don't apply to take the exam or apply themselves to do better, they won't!!! That's it. This entire proposal is wrapped around trying to increase minorities. It won't work unless they sign up to take the test. The city handed out plenty of free applications when everyone else had to pay $25 to take the exam and spent over a million dollars on a recruitment campaign aimed at minorities and women....not necesarily the best firefighters.

    If you all feel that you'd rather have the less "booksmart" fireman and the better one overall, how exactly do you propose to hire these people? How do you rate them, how do you test them? The current tests are very job related and easy for ANYONE coming in right off the street to do without a problem. The written is easily done for anyone who has a brain that isn't burned out, and went to high school, and the physical agility test is idiot proof and extremely job related. This new procedure is an absolute joke.


    Int. No. 588



    By Council Members Clarke, Barron, Comrie, Foster, Gerson, Gonzalez, James, Monserrate, Palma, Perkins, Recchia Jr., Seabrook, Stewart, Vann and Weprin



    ..Title

    A Local Law to amend the administrative code of the city of New York, in relation to reforming the ranking procedure for the open competitive firefighter exam.

    ..Body



    Be it enacted by the Council as follows:

    Section 1. Declaration of legislative findings and intent. Minority and female recruitment has been a perennial problem for the Fire Department: of the uniformed members of the Department, 91.6% are Caucasian; of over 8,700 members, only 28 are women. In contrast, 65% of New York City residents are minorities and 50% are women.

    The open competitive firefighter exam enables the Fire Department to identify people who have the necessary strength and intelligence to become firefighters. However, beyond identifying candidates who can meet these thresholds, the hiring process does a poor job of distinguishing among the candidates, to the detriment of minorities and women.

    Candidates for the position of firefighter are invited to the Fire Academy in the order of their rank on the FDNY hiring list, which is determined by combining scores on the written and physical exams, and then adding on any bonus points. Up to 25 points can be added to a candidates raw exam scores: 5 points for residents of New York City; 5 points for veterans; 5 points for offspring of members of the citys uniformed agencies who died in the line of duty; and 10 points for siblings of firefighters or police officers who died in the line of duty during the World Trade Center attack.

    In order to be placed on the FDNYs hiring list, candidates must achieve passing scores on both a written SAT-like exam and a physical exam. The passing grade on the 1999 written exam was 85%, and on the physical exam a candidate cannot fail more than two of eight tasks. These thresholds ensure that any candidate placed on the FDNYs hiring list meets necessary intelligence and strength criteria. Indeed, the list established from the 1999 written exam was exhausted, meaning every passing candidate who cleared background checks was eventually offered a position in the Fire Academy. Presumably all these candidates were qualified to become firefighters or they would not have been offered a place in the Fire Academy.

    Relative ranking on the FDNYs hiring list, however, does not accurately reflect differences in firefighting ability. First, the existence of up to 25 bonus points that, with the exception of points for veterans, though laudable, appear to have no bearing on qualities relating to firefighting, makes it difficult to believe that placement on the civil service list fully reflects merit and fitness. Second, the written exam tests certain important qualities, such as visual-spatial skills and reading comprehension, but cannot and does not test many of the characteristics that make a good firefighter. In addition to physical strength and intelligence, firefighters should possess bravery, quick thinking, common sense, leadership skills, and ability to function well under pressure, to follow orders and work in a quasi-military structure, and to work well in a team.

    As a result, one cannot say with any degree of confidence that someone with a total score of 99, and ranked at the top of the FDNYs hiring list, would be a better firefighter than someone with a total score of 89, who may be too low on the list to ever be hired. The person with the higher score, for example, may have received 10 bonus points for being the sibling of a police officer who died on September 11, 2001. Alternatively, the difference in scores could entirely reflect differences on the written exam, which, as just discussed, is more of a test of general intelligence than firefighting ability. Moreover, in the context of the 1999 written exam, the candidate with a lower score still would have passed the exam with a minimum score of 85%.

    That factors other than firefighting ability influence the ordering of a list of qualified firefighter candidates is not problematic in of itself. Since all candidates on the hiring list meet criteria the FDNY has established, they are all capable of becoming effective firefighters. The ranking is problematic, however, because minorities and women tend to be lower on the list. As a result, it typically takes longer for minorities and women to be invited to the Fire Academy, increasing the chances that they will have begun alternative careers or otherwise have lost interest in becoming firefighters. In addition, since the hiring list is often not exhausted, well-qualified minorities and women on the list may never be called to the Fire Academy.

    The Council finds that the current civil service ranking of firefighter candidates does not fully reflect merit and fitness, and leads to the hiring of fewer minorities and women. Accordingly, the Council declares that it is reasonable and necessary to reform the ranking procedure for the open competitive firefighter exam.

    2. Chapter one of title 15 of the administrative code of the city of New York is amended by adding a new section 15-129 to read as follows:

    15-129 Ranking of firefighter candidates. Firefighter candidates from the open competitive firefighter exam shall be ranked on the eligible to hire list in two zones, the high zone and the low zone. The high zone shall encompass the top scoring fifty percent of candidates who successfully pass the firefighter written and physical exams. The low zone shall encompass the bottom scoring fifty percent of candidates who successfully pass the firefighter written and physical exams. Within each zone, the department shall randomly order the candidates.

    3. This local law shall take effect 90 days after its enactment into law.

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    Default Hmmm...

    Originally posted by fireguy919
    Keep all the book smart people. I want street smart people.
    I would pass on the above statement because you can give
    a book guy street smarts in the field. But a street guy
    is already set in his ways and picking up the second
    master would be more difficult.

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    Originally posted by FORTff
    The entire proposal is a load of crap. NYC has the absolute most fair hiring practices I've seen of any fire department. Hell, it's not even the fire department who does the hiring. It's a matter of who applies, if minorities don't apply to take the exam or apply themselves to do better, they won't!!! That's it. This entire proposal is wrapped around trying to increase minorities. It won't work unless they sign up to take the test. The city handed out plenty of free applications when everyone else had to pay $25 to take the exam and spent over a million dollars on a recruitment campaign aimed at minorities and women....not necesarily the best firefighters.
    By Council Members Clarke, Barron, Comrie, Foster, Gerson, Gonzalez, James, Monserrate, Palma, Perkins, Recchia Jr., Seabrook, Stewart, Vann and Weprin
    THIS LIST IS FOR THE WALL OF SHAME!

    Section 1. Declaration of legislative findings and intent. Minority and female recruitment has been a perennial problem for the Fire Department: of the uniformed members of the Department, 91.6% are Caucasian; of over 8,700 members, only 28 are women. In contrast, 65% of New York City residents are minorities and 50% are women.
    BUT 100% OF THE UNIFORMED FIREFIGHTERS ARE THE BEST!


    Indeed, the list established from the 1999 written exam was exhausted, meaning every passing candidate who cleared background checks was eventually offered a position in the Fire Academy. Presumably all these candidates were qualified to become firefighters or they would not have been offered a place in the Fire Academy.
    INDEED!!!- MAYBE THE BACKGROUND CHECK AFFECTED 100% OF THE 65%!

    The ranking is problematic, however, because minorities and women tend to be lower on the list. As a result, it typically takes longer for minorities and women to be invited to the Fire Academy, increasing the chances that they will have begun alternative careers or otherwise have lost interest in becoming firefighters.
    LOST INTEREST? ALTERNATIVE CAREERS? DO WHAT I DID AND QUIT THE ALTERNATE CAREER WHEN YOU GET ON! SOUNDS TO ME LIKE THESE LOW SCORING CANDIDATES AREN'T VERY INTERESTED TO BEGIN WITH!!!

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    Great, That means I dont have to study, use my veternas credits, not live in the city and still get hired, am I following the logic right?

    Dont get me wrong some people dont test well and still can do a good job but in my opinion if you want the job you should work for it and be hired on that merit, not just take the test and say "hey I dont have to work on this, I can still get hired with out trying" what kind of message does this send.

    "You cant make this s88t up"
    Last edited by CaptainS; 03-31-2005 at 11:46 AM.

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    So basically for those who support this new system, if a person taking the test feels they aren't doing well, they should tank it and hope to be at the top of the lower 50% rather than the bottom of the upper 50%? Seems to me you want to reward the people who don't do well and take away from those who score well. Sure makes a lot of sense....(Sarcasm)

    Does the current system suck? Yeah it does. There are too many people taking these tests for everyone to get hired. Its a reality. Deal with it. I plan on taking the 2006 exam, and am currently studying for my bachelors in business because I know that there is a good chance that if I am not perfect on both tests, I won't get hired. It's not like mom and dad used to say when you were a kid, you CAN'T be anything you want to. There will be restrictions. Should that stop you from trying? HELL NO. But you need to face the reality that everyone fails things in life, hopefully this won't be the place you fail.

    With that said, I'm sure I will take a lot of flack for this comment, so bring it on. I wish you all luck for those on the list and those planning to take it. It sucks we can't all be what we want to be, but its reality.
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    I saw this purposal on a different FDNY Broard: Next election we should put into office those who got the least amount of votes. That would be fair according to this logic. If they really believe in the policy.

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    Question Age limits...

    A bit off topic, but wonderin' if NYC still has age limits to test? I think it is/was you couldn't be older than 35 to test. Couldn't find this info on that website.

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    Originally posted by t13one12
    So basically for those who support this new system, if a person taking the test feels they aren't doing well, they should tank it and hope to be at the top of the lower 50% rather than the bottom of the upper 50%? Seems to me you want to reward the people who don't do well and take away from those who score well. Sure makes a lot of sense....(Sarcasm)
    Don't be too sure - I thought I read somewhere near the bottom of the copy of the piece of legislation that the two lists were to be numbered randomly each...
    Busy polishing the stacked tips on the deckgun of I.A.C.O.J. Engine#1

    ...and before you ask - YES I have done a Bloody SEARCH!

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    Random numbering is even worse. They are turning this into a sign-up sheet instead of a test.
    9/11/01 D.C. Joseph "Uncle Joe" Marchbanks
    Battalion 12
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    Tim
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    The reason for the purposed legislation is simple: To hire more minorities and women.

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    erics99, are you saying that minorities and women score lower on the tests?
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    This is the biggest sham to ever face the Civil Service system. This Civil Service system was developed to ensure those with the greatest Merit and Fitness get the job and those who don't at least minimum standards don't get hired. Not those who know someone, have some BS certifications (FF2,etc.) college degrees or have a particular race, ethnicity, religion or sexual orientation!

    We want the very brightest and the most physically capable out there. Although there is a very good argument out there that the physical has been eroded over time and is now very easy for those of average physical strength and endurance to pass.

    The physical used to be so difficult that almost no one got a perfect 100% on it. It was meant to push you to your limits. Along with the written scores if you didn't score in the 90% range your name died on the list and you didn't get the job. There were 10,000s of applicants and only the top few 1000 would get hired. You had to really want the job. Today EMS slugs can get on before anyone in the open completive so long as they get a passing score. That means they can FAIL two events and still get hired before someone who passed all events! That is just shameful.

    I know EMS transfers that couldn't pass all the events...white, black, male, female...we don't want weak white males anymore than we want weak black females...We want all to be the most physically capable no matter their skin color or what they got between their legs.

    In fact this is the one and only point the Vulcans and the UFA have ever agreed on is that the physical should be much tougher and weighted accordingly. This is because 1. We want physically capable members and 2. The Vulcans know that minorities do very well on the physical and by weighting it with greater weight you would hire more minorities in the long run. However there is one problem...The women are completely against it and if some of them had their way would have NO physical.

    The written is nothing more than a way to see if you have basic aptitudes, intelligence, reasoning etc. It is geared to a 12th Grade level even though we require college credits today. Don't be surprised it these race baiting half-wit politicians try to change that requirement as well.

    Residency was created to give a hand up to minorities who lived in the city and thus a 5 points. However they couldn't just offer it to Blacks and women so they had to offer it to everyone. Veterans credits are to recognize those who have given service to their country and a job once out of the military.
    Legacy credit is the credit no one wants as it means your parents died in the LOD while in one of the uniformed services. It is meant as a sign of gratitude to the family that a son or daughter should choose to become a cop or fireman etc. after their parent gave their life in the service of the city.

    You can see the difference when someone who had residency and veterans credits gets on the job at the end of the list...they are usually not the brightest out there. When one can't even get a respectable score on a test made for imbeciles it doesn't speak well for their intelligence and it usually shows in the firehouse.

    Something interesting in the past few years is that Hispanics have been coming on the job with ease and don't seem to have the same problems other minorities are claiming to have. Why is that? Why aren't they up in arms like the vulcans? Could it be they want qualified applicants and the best of the best?

    The worst part of all of this is that these politicians are only insulting the very people they claim to represent and help. They claim that women and minorities can't meet even these ridiculously easy tests. If I were in either of the above groups I would be insulted.

    Why is that tests for the Traffic agents, Police Dept, Correction, Motor men and Conductors, which are ALL listed in the same papers and postings as every other test given by DCAS...have no problem in recruiting women and minorities? Could it be that there isn't that much interest in firefighting in these communities?

    The FDNY entrance exam is hands down the easiest and least discriminatory ANYWHERE in the country. This proposal is the most insulting and revolting thing ever to be presented before the city council.

    This directly affects the safety and security of all residents, visitors and tourists to NYC.

    If you know anyone who is a resident of NYC-call them and have them voice their displeasure with the proposal.

    TAKE THE TEST-PASS THE TEST WITH THE BEST SCORE-GET THE JOB

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 04-01-2005 at 03:35 PM.

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