Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 14 of 14
  1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber N2DFire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    S.W. Virginia
    Posts
    1,286

    Default Righting inverted car with Pt. inside (calling all recovery/tow Guru's)

    O.K. folks. This ought to be a good one. I'm mostly posting this for general discussion but I do have a question at the end for the Rigging & Recovery Guru's.

    Background info. I am a contract firefighter to International Speedway Corporation (www.iscmotorsports.com) at Martinsville Speedway and subsequently I work for NASCAR 4 to 6 days a year.

    Anyhow - I just had our NASCAR mandated pre-event training (which was all table top discussion & power point stuff) last night and one of the things we covered is NASCAR's new "official" procedure for extricating a driver trapped in an inverted vehicle.

    Their procedure consist of rigging 2 tow straps to the vehicle and using a wrecker to "roll" the car back onto it's wheels. For those like myself who are NOT very knowledgeable about wreckers - the gist of it is you have a dual boom / dual winch wrecker and with one side you roll the inverted car onto it's side (and into the other cable) then the second cable lowers the car back down onto it's wheels.

    The video showed a crew in training who had never done this before and they even put a (supervised) FF at the controls of the wrecker who had never run a wrecker before in his life. They were able to completely rig & right the vehicle quite smoothly in roughly 3 minutes.

    Now I'm not advocating this for the average family car but because of the vast amount of protective gear the drivers have - it limits the amount of movement w/in the vehicle.

    This procedure was developed at the NASCAR test lab with the approval & input of all the different Doc's who study this stuff.

    The issue was raised that in the video it showed what appeared to be a quite substantial wrecker (i.e. Freightliner/International type chassis). Given the extremely tight confines of Martinsville Speedway this type/size of wrecker is not practical nor normally available.

    Now - not being familiar with various wreckers this is my question for the Guru's. Is the average "Tow Truck" (i.e. F450-550 size chassis) capable of safely & smoothly performing this maneuver with a minimum 3400 Lb car (What about 2 of them at once)? Also are the average boom length/height on this size going to be adequate?

    Sorry I do not have pictures to share, however we have been promised hands-on tool time with some wrecked chassis sometime before the October race, so I'll be sure to get a lot of my own shots then.
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
    Stephen
    FF/Paramedic
    Instructor


  2. #2
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    N2,Thank you,thank you,thank you for posting another thought provoking discussion.Let's address the answers in a "block" format.First,the mere mention of this procedure will put the medical response community(EMTB-I-P)into deep spin.It's simply not allowed.Can it be done? Yep. Is it "safe"? Loaded question. In my opinion with a few safeguards out in place,it's very viable.Can it be done with a "small"tow truck? I've done it numerous times with a 84"CA F350 gas.Would I allow inexperienced operators to do it? NO! Chief reason being span of control.An experienced operator using equipment they use every day controls that equipment just as if it were an 8 ton extention of their own hands.Very smooth,controlled and quick.Never do in public what you haven't practiced in private(WreckMaster phrase and SO true).C-spine protocol MUST be employed before doing ANY roll/right recovery.If you remember,I posed this question last year after the rollover that took so long to free the driver.Just reverse roll the car and extrication is MUCH quicker.If you want to make it even quicker have two little strap width trap doors installed in the "balance point"(center)of the roll cage on each side.Viable for stock cars? Without question,there is NO way quicker to free an inverted driver.With proper training and co-ordination I am equally sure it could be employed in the public sector.But it is a radical idea that needs to be trained on and authenticated.But very viable none the less. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 04-02-2005 at 02:05 PM.

  3. #3
    Forum Member MetalMedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    The Home of Smucker's Jelly
    Posts
    1,266

    Default

    It is interesting that NASCAR has advocated this and taught this procedure in their "Train the Trainer" program I attended at their test facility in Concord. Yet, at the Daytona ARCA ReMax event, they had a vehicle roll-over and did not use the wrecker rotation to put the car back on its wheels. Instead, they attacked the side of the car and the roll cage.

    We had heard that NASCAR was moving away from rolling the car back over... guess we will find out what the current plan is on May 1st when we do our advance training program. My first thoughts were I did not like the idea, but after looking at the options, I agree that with the driver properly secured in their vehicle, there appears to be less movement of the drive by turning the car, than there is when you turn the driver to get him/her out of the vehicle.

    Ahh... race season... another long hot summer!
    Last edited by MetalMedic; 04-04-2005 at 11:30 AM.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

  4. #4
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Medic,I don't think it's going to sit well with some.It's a radical idea,but one with merit in my opinion.I know for fact it can be done quickly and smoothly but like anything else,needs to be practised.Particularly in racing,I believe it's a concept that needs a hard look as a viable operation.Let us know what you find out. T.C.

  5. #5
    FIGJAM lutan1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    I come from The Land Down Under!
    Posts
    1,833

    Default

    We've always taught controlled rollover procedures. We would use either our own winches or tirfors for all scenarios versus the local tow companies as they had no training (In our area, anyone can be a tow operator and have no training )

    It was always taught as an option to consider however our first action would be to leave the vehicle in place and work with it. (I don't know about race cars and roll bars, etc, so I don't know if that may be an option...)
    Luke

  6. #6
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,673

    Default

    I know for fact it can be done quickly and smoothly but like anything else,needs to be practised.
    Unfortunately, my tow truck operators in this area are not that well trained nor practised.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #7
    Forum Member MetalMedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    The Home of Smucker's Jelly
    Posts
    1,266

    Default

    Originally posted by Rescue101
    Medic,I don't think it's going to sit well with some.It's a radical idea,but one with merit in my opinion.I know for fact it can be done quickly and smoothly but like anything else,needs to be practised.Particularly in racing,I believe it's a concept that needs a hard look as a viable operation.Let us know what you find out. T.C.
    The problem is that so far, what has been seen on television was done wrong. The most recent that I recall was Micheal Waltrip's roll-over at Daytona in February 2004. After some delay in making a decision, they simply "flipped" the car over with much unnecessary movemet. For anyone who cannot visualize the evolution, what is done is that two straps and two winch/booms are required. While one side is lifted, the opposite side is pulled under to "rotate" the car to an upright position. Once you cross over the center of gravity, the pulling strap becomes a lowering strap which allows the car to turn over with remarably little or no sudden movements that could compromise cervical spine. Add to this that if the driver is properly secured in the seat of the vehicle, there is almost no chance for movement beyond what has already occurred during the accident.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

  8. #8
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Arrow

    And my dear Bones,what, if anything are you doing about it?Few towtruck operators, with only a few exceptions,train themselves to interact with the Fire/Rescue community.If you're inclined to use the "resource"get the locals involved in your training.Bounce ideas off each other.In my area,the other companies have had to get up to speed to get a slice of the pie.If it's a bad scene,it's ours exclusively.We provide donor cars to the Dept and work closely with area depts on training.It gives them the insight to know what to request,it gives me extra help for rigging/recovery.A win/win.But you won't get qualified help unless:You demand it,you help produce it,and you involve affected agencies in interactive training.You have NOTHING to lose,make it happen. T.C.

  9. #9
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,673

    Default

    Rescue101, I wish I could do more. The big competition around here for service is the police contract. They get to be the first ones called to tow illegally parked cars. I've seen times where they cause damage to the vehicles and just don't seem to care. We've tried working with them, but since they are all gas stations with repair shops, towing/recovery is not their "bread and butter". There just is not a lot of cause/need for the "better" services. When I have a call that requires a heavy, like for a tractor trailer, it's a 30minute wait for the company to arrive as they are miles away. I wish it could be better, but we have learned to not depend on our tow trucks and find ways to do things ourselves. (leading to going to bigrig courses )

    That is also why I love reading the threads about using the tow trucks and "learning" a little bit.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber N2DFire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    S.W. Virginia
    Posts
    1,286

    Default

    First of all Thank You to all who have commented & contributed to this. I hope that as the year progresses we will be able to revisit this & discuss it further. (As a side note, I wonder how well a Motorsports Safety forum would go over here?)

    I would also like to commend you all for keeping this discussion on a friendly & open tone. I only wish the other forums were this polite & open minded.

    As far as I know NASCAR isn't moving away from this, they are actually still trying to educate & teach this program to everyone. For those that follow the whole motorsports program, you will remember that Martinsville speedway was purchased by ISC last year. Right after the ISC takeover, there was a big change in the way things were done & ISC had some track safety folks come up from Darlington and give us a talk on how things work under ISC.

    During this talk, one of the topics we covered was this "new" roll-over procedure. The guys from Darlington weren't big fans of a total roll over process. They had addressed the issue locally before NASCAR came out with their plan. The Darlington crew had already studied, rehearsed, and liked their plan and last I heard they were going to stick with it.

    In their plan, they only rolled the car back onto it's side(whichever happened to be easiest to access and had more room to roll). Once on it's side they simply reverted to a side resting evolution and did a partial roof/windshield removal using the existing roof escape hatch.

    NASCAR's biggest issue with upside down vehicles is the resulting positional asphyxia & airway compromise that results from the position the drivers are in (all body weight on chest hanging in harness) coupled with the possible degree of injury that type or wreck can induce. Given that fact you have roughly 4 to 6 minutes of bad/no airway before brain damage and/or death occur. When you stop to factor in response time (even on shorter tracks) and scene assessment, we are not left with a lot of "play time" to try & jack up & work an inverted car.

    While I agree that to some extent this same issue exist in the "real world", the truth of the matter is that the majority of persons in this situation would most likely have become non salvageable prior to the arrival of enough equipment to roll the vehicle over. Secondly while I agree that rolling *can* be accomplished smoothly in the "real world" the truth of the matter is that the vast majority of tow & recovery operators do not have the expertise to do this correctly and safely. Also I do not think that current passenger automobile safety & restraint systems afford nearly the degree of c-spine security that the Motor Sports industries have.

    All that being said I am not now nor would I ever rule out the possibility of rolling or otherwise righting/recovering a vehicle with a Pt. still inside - all I am saying is that it would be way down on my option list & I would want to be able to very clearly explain why that was my only/best option.

    As for Lutan & the Oz crews, If it works for you and you are not seeing any negative results of this, then by all means continue. I think that rather than us sitting here saying "You can't do that!" we should be saying "How are you doing that?" and taking a much closer look at the procedure.

    I look forward to further comments & discussion on the issue.
    Last edited by N2DFire; 04-07-2005 at 10:58 AM.
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
    Stephen
    FF/Paramedic
    Instructor

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Mullica Hill, NJ 08062
    Posts
    8

    Default A new trend?

    First, let me start by saying that I have seen this idea put to work in the field in the uprighting of tractor-trailers! It definitly does work! I had always wondered if it could be done in a 'rescue' operation. A race car is one thing - a passenger car is completly different. Just the differences in restraint systems make me leary of trying it on an ordinary overturned POV.

    Luke is right on point with his assessment of the tow operators Down Under because they are the same over here where the toilets flush the RIGHT way ! T.C., I am quite confident in saying that you are the anomoli where you are because of your experience in the fire service and as a tow operator. Here in South Jersey, I must say that every time our local tow operator comes out for a tow WITHOUT A PT IN THE VEHICLE I feel as if we should be paying for the entertainment. The only thing missing is the circus music. That being said, I think with the proper training and the right equipment there is no reason that fire service personnel and apparatus could not handle this task (T.C. > looking for your opinion on this). The main problem that I see with 'allowing' your local tow operator handling this task (at least from my point of view in our area) is response time of the tow truck. Here the tow truck usually is not on scene until well after the patient is extricated and on the way to the hospital.

    As far as on the race track, I would love to see this instituted more often. I 'moonlight' for a rescue squad at a sprint car track in the area and have participated in several instances of a rollover of a sprinter and the track personnel simply roll the car over by hand (I close my eyes every time). Obviously not good. And it makes little sense considering there are around half a dozen tow trucks on hand on any given race day.

    I really could see this becoming the next 'trend' in vehicle rescue training.

  12. #12
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Bridgton,Me USA
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Towing,just like the Fire service,is only as good as the players. I would invite you to inquire of some fire companies in the West Nyack NY area that completed a "dealing with disaster" extrication course last Fri and Sat.Going in they shared many of your concerns and "you can't do thats".Coming out of the program,I think you'll find they have a different opinion.I also believe you will find this will become a yearly event there.I had the pleasure of working with a bunch of great Chiefs and some outstanding,enthusiastic rank and file. Hard as this may be to grasp,I'm NOT an anomoly.Any operator carrying a WRECKMASTER card is perfectly capable and CERTIFIED to do what I do.Having a Fire service background sure doesn't hurt.Thanks too to Clay Morse for setting the program in motion and James and his crew from Rockland Auto for providing the towing/recovery equipment and expertise necessary to do the work of secondary safety and control of the rollover/crash scenerios.A very good weekend with lots of learning for everyone. T.C.

  13. #13
    Forum Member MetalMedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    The Home of Smucker's Jelly
    Posts
    1,266

    Default

    UPDATE - NASCAR is still teaching the controlled roll over procedure and we may be including it in our upcoming training at the track I work at. A point of information is that vehicle weight and construction dynamics play into this. While it seems to work well on a race vehicle, your average family car may not respond well to such a procedure, so you are probably best not to try it at 3AM on the interstate.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

  14. #14
    FIGJAM lutan1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    I come from The Land Down Under!
    Posts
    1,833

    Default

    Grandmaster 101, when are you or BigRig going to post some pictures up on these forums? I reckon it'll sure get the juices flowing on many responders to see some of the stuff you guys do on your courses.

    BTW, the postal service seems to have lost that sponsorship deal you sent me in the mail to come over and participate
    Luke

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts