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    Default FDNY Getting Hurt??

    What do you think about the FDNY Brothers always getting hurt lately in the past year??


    I am not trying to start and rant and rave, or getting anyone mad at me. I am just asking what everyone thinks...

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    Question Huh?

    Because that is what happens when you go to fires??? Guys get injured.

    FTM-PTB

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    Thousands of firefighters, thousands of 'jobs'. Chances are high.

    Honestly, I'd expect more FDNY guys to get hurt. I'm thankful to god that it's as low as it is. Says a lot to their training and skill.
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    Default Re: FDNY Getting Hurt??

    Originally posted by fightn15
    What do you think about the FDNY Brothers always getting hurt lately in the past year??


    I am not trying to start and rant and rave, or getting anyone mad at me. I am just asking what everyone thinks...
    Uh ... What exactly are you getting at? Are you trying to stir the pot? Please give me some insight on why you would throw this question out there. I really don't think that our LOD injury rate is all that different than past years. What would make you think that more members are getting injured in the last year? What difference would it make if it was? I'm really curious to why you would ask.

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    Well I just noticed recently all the articles on FDNY Members getting hurt. Recently the 5 or 6 that jumped out of the building, the auto parts fire, the playground, etc. don't get me wrong, i got alot of respect for FDNY. It was just a question, not trying to stir the pot. Believe me, we dont have as many guys at FDNY, but we got over 200. We used to get fires all the time but with our Fire Prevention Division doing such a wonderful job, we get a fire maybe once or twice a month.

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    I understand the question. Yes, FDNY runs alot of fire calls, and they have extensive knowledge and background in this area, some would say more than any other dept in the world.
    But an outsider might look at the numbers and wonder why are there so many injuries?
    Are they inline with national stats when adjusted per capita/volume of calls?
    Are they more aggressive, making decisions that other depts don't make, and is this good or bad?Could it be an example of
    "100 years of tradition, unhindered by progress"? Or just a busy dept?
    If the injury rate is higher, what could be the cause?If they have a lower injury rate, what are they doing differently?
    An interesting discussion could occur, but there may be too much animosity for questioning the practices of the FDNY, which deservedly has an excellent reputation..
    "Don't just do something, stand there!!!"

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    sounds like someones doing a little useless
    and deserves a

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    Default along these lines

    I am not saying they did anything wrong i am just wondering from the story

    Heckscher Playground Building Blaze

    5 firefighters were injured fighting a 1 story park shed now granted they did get a fire truck stuck, and 3 hydrants weren't working but that just sounds like an everyday run of the mill call in the country

    although we don't get the 126 personnel responses

    No doubt a bad day just sounded funny when I first read it
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    Arrow Sill not sure why this is an issue.

    I am not saying they did anything wrong i am just wondering from the story

    Heckscher Playground Building Blaze

    5 firefighters were injured fighting a 1 story park shed now granted they did get a fire truck stuck, and 3 hydrants weren't working but that just sounds like an everyday run of the mill call in the country

    although we don't get the 126 personnel responses

    No doubt a bad day just sounded funny when I first read it
    This wasn't a shed or outhouse. It was a stout building of masonry, lath, wire mesh, heavy mineral plaster, dementional lumber and copper lined roofing. Probably built in the early 1900s it wasn't exactly what you are thinking I'm sure. The building I think was used for parks employees and I imagine some storage of equipment. Fire was throughout the cockloft and the delay in water didn't help things. The ceilings were very difficult to pull.

    The rig was an Engine that got stuck not a Truck.

    I don't know what all the injuries were but I did hear one or two were for burns and I know one was for a member who had a large chunk of ceiling fall and hit him.

    I can't imagine that your dept is any different...you go to jobs and unfortunately some guys get injured...no? I don't think anyone is trying to stir the sh*t however I really don't understand why anyone would even question this.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 04-14-2005 at 07:54 AM.

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    Well since the real events don't ever make it in print, every headline makes it sound like all of the injuries happened at one time in one place, when that's rarely the case. 126 guys over a 3-4 hour job, given the unique building construction variances in NYC, expecially the playground one, it's not surprising some people get beaned with falling ceiling parts. When you hook ceilings, these things happen, and when they're plaster and all that good stuff, they come off in chunks bigger than what people (i.e. those that have never seen old construction) would expect hooking drywall. Same reason one could end up with burns, more embers and chunks flying around during overhaul in that type of construction. When sensationlism says burns, we think lots of burned area, when it could just be a cigarette sized one from an ember. Still counts as an injury, still needs to be treated properly, but luckily they're not as bad as we first think when reading the headline.

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    Although I don't have the stats..

    Isn't it a safe assumption that the injury/death rate is significantly lower than it was during their "War Years"?

    Brothers get injured on the job EVERYDAY. Because the FDNY is the biggest FD in the country and very popular among the fire service they get quite a bit of exposure.

    I live in the Chicago area and pretty frequently you hear on the news about one or two FFs getting hurt on a job. Most of the time it never makes the front page of this site. Is it less important? Hell no..

    Our job is inherently dangerous. We can follow all the safety rules and procedures, and some time or another Murphy's Law will prevail.

    So why would it be out of the ordinary for one of the biggest and busiest fire departments to have a number of injuries? It's horrible that a Brother gets hurt, even whe we do everything right....sometimes things just go wrong.

    fieldseng2

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    Brothers get injured on the job EVERYDAY. Because the FDNY is the biggest FD in the country and very popular among the fire service they get quite a bit of exposure.
    How many of you heard about the fireman who was injured in my hometown at a fire over the winter? None. The only reason you hear about every single injury is because the FDNY is so big and there is a lot of publicity around them. They aren't doing anything wrong/stupid/too agressive. If someone breaks a nail at a fire you can be sure those reporters will be all over it.
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    I'd hazard a guess that part of the "increase"in numbers is due to better reporting/recording of incidents and also due to increased"nosiness"from outside sources.I know that's certainly true in my area.We run about the same call volume as we have for years but because of greater citizen concerns they appear to be higher.You wanna test somethin'? Send it to FDNY. If it lasts (or if they even use it)it's good stuff. T.C.

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    Kind of along the lines of Rescue101 & FFFred,

    I've always chalked it up to a combination of both risk, being very meticulous if you get injured it get's officially checked out & written up, and somebody feeding the press good sound bites.

    I've had a bunch of minor injuries, one moderate one, and one honestly I should've gone to formal physical therapy for that I've never bothered to report.

    Never had anything lasting or long term, nothing that affected my ability to earn a living. The worse one did mean I had a hard time lifting heavy objects with one arm for nearly 5 months! Killer if you fight fires everyday...something I could however work around.

    That said, if I was a Chief of an organization that I'm sure gets a good number of short and long term disability claims...or the Officer of a company in a busy department looking out after my men...at the hint of anything "Go get it checked out by the Doc. Now."
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    Here is a question that will get me fried...

    Why attempt an interior fire attack on what basically amounts to a storage building with no threat to life or exposures and a challenging building construction situation? Especially since there was a delay in getting water to the scene. It seems to me the risk versus benefit in this situation would have pointed to an exterior attack only.

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    Originally posted by OnWithTheShow
    Why attempt an interior fire attack on what basically amounts to a storage building with no threat to life or exposures and a challenging building construction situation? Especially since there was a delay in getting water to the scene. It seems to me the risk versus benefit in this situation would have pointed to an exterior attack only.
    I don't know if you'll get "fried" for that comment... But it scares me to think that someday, many of us might work for chiefs with the exact same mentality. We aren't just in this business to save lives. And certainly, we aren't here just to fight the easy fires.

    Our world is changing. It seems that the more stuff people buy, the less any of it matters to them. We live in a disposable era. However, that's not the case for everyone. There are still plenty of folks that value their homes, offices and other property... And they look to us to save those things when they're threatened by fire.

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    I certainly understand where you are coming from cozmosis. I value some of my stuff greatly. I do however value each and every one of us more than any material object. I just cant see how we can justify risking our lives in an effort to save someone's $60,000 plasma tv. Or in the case of the original post some landscaping equipment and an old (perhaps historical) building. This is off course assuming that it is a larger fire with immediately dangerous to life conditions.

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    So we're assuming the buildings empty?? No park employee? No squatter, no children? As I was told in probie school, and have pretty much seen since Ive been on the job "there are no vacant buildings in NYC" Ive been to buildings that most would assume are vacant, and found beds, clothes, food etc...from the people or person living in this "obviously vacant" building.

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    Deputy Chief passed this line on to me one day, that he had been taught from his Father (a Chief)...

    You fight each fire on the assumption there's a body in there.

    Treat each fire with the same amount of respect and diligence.

    =============

    Why attempt an interior fire attack on what basically amounts to a storage building with no threat to life or exposures and a challenging building construction situation?

    Because you size-up each situation individually.

    And often times going in and putting the fire out is the simplest, quickest, and safest way to bring an incident to a conclusion. The shorter the incident, the less time it has to become more unstable and the less time Firefighters are exposed to dangers of all types -- whether it's interior ceiling coming down, or having a master stream break lose outside.

    Especially since there was a delay in getting water to the scene.

    Three failed hydrants...and a 1000' lay to get a good one. There's large segments of the fire service that would be tinkled pink to be able to establish water supply so easily. Assuming they were reverse laying which I believe is common in NYC, what is that delay, 6 or 7 minutes longer than expected? "****, hydrants dead...gotta drive to the next one..." Maybe get a second engine involved to help...yeah, it probably takes them out of their game a bit, but I couldn't see it being a "critical" factor in this situation.
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    Default Re: Sill not sure why this is an issue.

    Originally posted by FFFRED
    I can't imagine that your dept is any different...you go to jobs and unfortunately some guys get injured...no? I don't think anyone is trying to stir the sh*t however I really don't understand why anyone would even question this.

    FTM-PTB
    To be honest, Ive always wondered the same thing. Its not just FDNY, but a lot of the big, older, northern cities. At first I just figured it was the number of calls, but I dont think thats the issue. If you break it down by percentage, it does look like these departments have an un-equal share of injuries and LODD's. What I mean is, if for every 10 fires you have 5 FF injuries, it doesnt matter the city. Its still 5 in 10.

    So what is it? Tactics, training, equipment? Doubt it. Poor risk vs benifit decisions? Ummm, perhaps, but I realy cant say. I tend to lean toward the age of the buildings. I come to this conclusion by looking at my area. We probably have 5000 stucture fires a year. And while we have our share of injuries, we havent had a LODD since the early 70's. Are the tactics, training and equipment better here then FDNY. Hell no! BUT, we have maybe 75 100 year old buildings county wide. NYC has how many thousand?
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    living in the northeast and having been a paid fire fighter in SC for a short stint ......... i was once told by a chief down south that they liked employing fire figheters origanaly from the north because they were generaly more agressive ....now whether thats true or not i dont know . i would tend to think that structure age and type of construction would be more of a major factor.

    then the factor of how the north east has tons of towns that are all different sizes and volunteer companys are in major abundance and this meens less training time (not all ) and stringint physical phytness programs and things of that such .


    again these are just things pointed out .

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    always getting hurt lately in the past year
    I will resist playing grammer cop!

    Here's another one you can armchair quarterback!

    (Park Slope-WABC, April 13, 2005) Nine firefighters are recovering at area hospitals after battling a blaze at an auto parts shop in Brooklyn.

    Eyewitness News reporter Ken Rosato is live in Park Slope with more.

    More than 100 firefighters battled the blaze at the GB 500 Auto Body parts store at 274 Fourth Avenue.

    When firefighters arrived, they met up with heavy flames, and thick smoke. but their ordeal had only just begun.

    Joseph Callen, FDNY Assistant Chief: "Midway into our operation, we had a partial collapse of some heavy duty shelving, with some very heavy auto parts on the shelving in boxes."

    Three firefighters became pinned under those boxes. That's when they sent out a "mayday" call.

    Other firefighters searched for ten minutes before finding their injured co-workers.

    Authorities are now investigating whether the owners violated building codes by putting up the shelving that held the heavy equipment.

    There is no word yet on what caused the fire but the fire authorities are investigating.

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    Originally posted by MattyJ
    So we're assuming the buildings empty?? No park employee? No squatter, no children? As I was told in probie school, and have pretty much seen since Ive been on the job "there are no vacant buildings in NYC" Ive been to buildings that most would assume are vacant, and found beds, clothes, food etc...from the people or person living in this "obviously vacant" building.
    MattyJ,

    You hit the nail on the head. Here we have our share of vacant and abondoned buildings. We have found that many homeless are living in these structures, along with furniture and other goods. We must assume that there are people inside and we treat it as such. To do otherwise goes against the grain. So in essence there are no vacant structures that do not have individuals living in them.

    Another problem that arises is that in many nieghborhoods here we have structures that are 3-5 feet apart. If we intend on saving the ajoining structures with as little damage as possible (our goal), we do an interior attack along with the exposure protection. We have consistently saved many structures and stemming what damage is done in this manner.

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    Authorities are now investigating whether the owners violated building codes by putting up the shelving that held the heavy equipment.
    Another point that slipped by me. Inspections and pre-fire planning. As an inspector, I know what it takes and how hard it can be to keep up on these kinds of things.

    But that being said, I cant fathom the work load of the inspectors for FDNY or any of the other big cities with thousands of older buildings. And pre-fire plans? We have about 500 that we are converting from paper drawings over to computer. Weve been working on it for two years now and have about 25% done. How many would FDNY have?

    I recall that part of the problem with the last fire that the brothers had to jump out windows involved code issues. And it sounds like this one in the auto parts place may be the same.

    The more you look at these other things, the more convinced I am that the brothers are doing what they can to keep safe, but the odds are certainly against them
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    More good points. A marority of our buildings (tenements,row frames and private dwellings) Were built attached. Some with and some without fire stopping in between. Aside from protecting life, we could stand to lose an entire block of peoples homes if we do not get in and knock it down. Many of these buildings are over 100 years old or close to it. They burn rapidly.
    As far as preplanning. Just about every type of building (and there are many) have VERY detailed operating proceders and assignments for each member. These have been developed based on actual experience on what has worked and what will cause greater damage and loss of life if not carried out. In other words, we know what works, and what doesnt work. There isnt a company on this job that doesnt drill constantly on tips and proceders (based on things that have happened to members over the years) to operate as safly as possible.
    Keep in mind, we are not allowed to inspect private dwellings(2 or less families), and individual apartments, where many of the illegal alterations have been made. We do go out 6 hours a week on Building Inspection, and a good company is very familuar with alot of the buildings in their district. But you cant possibly know them all based on the sheer volume of buildings.
    Last, many of the injuries that get reported are minor; (stitches, bumps and bruises,minor burns and strains etc...)Some are often major.Anyone who has operated at even a few jobs knows how easy it is to recieve a minor injury, and God forbid a major one.
    I would also say that for roughly 2,000 guys on duty at all times and over 1,000 incidents a day, our number of injuries are not too bad.
    Last edited by MattyJ; 04-15-2005 at 12:42 PM.

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