1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Question Black on white crime isn't a bias crime???

    Brooklyn Skyline
    http://www.brooklynskyline.com/news_...p?c=ne&na=1486

    Non-Bias Attack

    April 11, 2005
    By Marianna Hernandez

    Invoking the name “Martin Luther King” and screaming “Black Power!” a gang of up to 30 black teens attacked four white girls in Marine Park in what police are saying is not a bias crime.

    The March 30 attack was a hot topic at state Senator Marty Golden’s recent public safety forum.

    According to witnesses and parents of the victims, four young girls from St. Edmund’s had the day off from school due to Easter recess. They were playing basketball during dismissal from nearby Marine Park Junior High School, when several Marine Park students demanded to use the court.

    After adults intervened and asked them to wait their turn, the teens left - but returned in a pack of up to 30, both boys and girls, and stormed into the park.

    Witnesses say the attackers were all black and called their victims “white crackers” during the bloody melee, which raged for almost 20 minutes.

    “This is not being looked at as a bias crime,” NYPD Deputy Inspector Kevin McGinn said at the meeting.

    “When I pulled my car up to the park, I witnessed a pandemonium I’ve never seen in my life,” said Debbie, a mother of one victim who asked to remain anonymous for safety reasons.

    Her daughter ran to the car, screaming, “They’re going to kill us,” Debbie recalled. My daughter was so scared and kids were running around like crazy.

    Pursued by dozens of teens, some of the girls were “literally running into traffic to save their lives,” she said.

    One girl made it as far as a nearby house, but was dragged by her hair back into the playground by a “wolf pack of children,” Debbie said.

    The St. Edmund girls were bleeding and beaten to the point where they had cuts, scrapes, footprints and dirt all over them - and the attackers surrounded her car and started pounding on the windows as Debbie tried to herd the terrified children into her vehicle.

    Two girls were hospitalized - one with a broken nose and one with a head injury, according to Edith, the mother of another girl.

    According to Lt. Mark Molinari, from the 63rd Precinct, five of the assailants, who attend Marine Park Junior High School, were arrested and charged with misdemeanor assault. But since the attackers are all under the age of 16, they are facing charges in Family Court, and were arraigned last Friday.

    “I always felt safe in the area and after hearing about such an incident, you start thinking what else could happen. These situations should not be happening, not in Marine Park, or anywhere else, and the safety of our kids should be of most importance,” said Denise Williams, a parent from Gerritsen Beach.

    “It’s getting progressively worse in the community - these types of gangs are not only taking away our parks, they‚re ruining our neighborhoods,” said parent Cathy Miller.

    “Nobody expects their child to go to a park and get beaten, with footprints on her head and arm, everyone just wants their child to be safe,” said Edith. “Everyone should have the right to be safe from teens, to small kids, to seniors, to mothers with strollers, no one should fear of being beaten while enjoying a day in the park.”



    Now everyone tell me what would happen if the 30 kids were White and the 4 girls were Black.... White kids screaming "white power" and "get some ropes to hang them n*$$@&$!"; and the NYPD claimed that is wasnt' a bias crime...I'll tell you what...The Reverend Jackson and Sharpton would be marching on Marine Park Brooklyn faster than you can say REPERATIONS! Everyone White, Black, Red, Yellow and Purple should be disgusted with this miscariage of justice. They keep this nonsense up and we'll find this city back in the toilet as it was in the 1970s.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 04-13-2005 at 10:53 PM.

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    RspctFrmCalgary's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Now in Victoria, BC. I'm from beautiful Jasper Alberta in the heart of the Can. Rockies - will always be an Albertan at heart!
    Posts
    6,329

    Default

    That's absolutely sickening.

    Sickening that it happened and disgusting that it isn't being considered a "race" crime.
    September 11th - Never Forget

    I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

    Sheri
    IACOJ CRUSTY CONVENTION CHAIR
    Honorary Flatlander

    RAY WAS HERE FIRST

  3. #3
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Arrow

    Personally I think all this "race crime and Bias crime" stuff is nonsense but it is here and probably to stay for awhile. What irks me is how this is unevenly enforced and how the NYPD brass is trying to tone down their crime statistics so the Mayor can claim all time low crime stats and get reelected! It is the biggest game of three-card monte ever!

    If they are going to have "bias crimes" they better enforce them equally. It is sad when police officers are aquited of brutality in State courts but are convicted in Federal Court for depriving individuals of their "civil rights" and we have 30 Black youths getting a slap on the wrist for attacking 4 white girls!! At the very least this should have been classified a Gang assault! If this was the other way around I gaurantee you there would have been masive riots in Flatbush!

    F'n disgrace.

    FTM-PTB

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Originally posted by FFFRED
    Personally I think all this "race crime and Bias crime" stuff is nonsense but it is here and probably to stay for awhile. What irks me is how this is unevenly enforced and how the NYPD brass is trying to tone down their crime statistics so the Mayor can claim all time low crime stats and get reelected! It is the biggest game of three-card monte ever!

    If they are going to have "bias crimes" they better enforce them equally. It is sad when police officers are aquited of brutality in State courts but are convicted in Federal Court for depriving individuals of their "civil rights" and we have 30 Black youths getting a slap on the wrist for attacking 4 white girls!! At the very least this should have been classified a Gang assault! If this was the other way around I gaurantee you there would have been masive riots in Flatbush!

    F'n disgrace.

    FTM-PTB
    I gotta agree, to a point. Did you ever hear of a "love crime"? All crime, to some degree is based on hate.

    Can you imagine Rev. Al if they charged this group with bias crimes? He would have made it sound like the girls provoked this attack on a group of black kids who were out doing missionary work.

    I do not think that this has anything to do with the crime stats. This has everything to do with the police brass (not just in NY, but in most major cities) not having the guts to confront the blatant double standard that exists in most segments of the black community. That double standard says that racism is a white thing. There is no black racism, that it is a reasonable and expected reaction to years of oppression by whitey.

    That is not a racist comment. I have had blacks tell me that to my face.

    In this case, the NYPD brass is gutless.

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    George on the crime stats thing...Don't forget the biggest shell game in town...COMSTAT!

    Incidentally this fell right on the line between the 61 and 63 pct's. I'm sure the 63 doesn't want to see their index crimes increase any more as they have a hard enough time as it is.

    FTM-PTB

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Originally posted by FFFRED
    George on the crime stats thing...Don't forget the biggest shell game in town...COMSTAT!

    Incidentally this fell right on the line between the 61 and 63 pct's. I'm sure the 63 doesn't want to see their index crimes increase any more as they have a hard enough time as it is.

    FTM-PTB
    I don't want to argue about it, but I am a believer in COMSTAT.

    The problem with thinking that this is a crime stat thing is that there is no way to hide this. It is (or will be) a high profile case. If they are trying to hide crimes, it is easy enough to do without using a high profile case to do it with. For cripie's sake, the Daily NEws doesn't even print a tiny mention of most homicides in the city. Hiding several dozen assaults would be child's play.

  7. #7
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Salem, Massachusetts
    Posts
    422

    Default

    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    I gotta agree, to a point. Did you ever hear of a "love crime"? All crime, to some degree is based on hate.

    I agree, ALL crime has hate on some level. So why do we call it a hate crime? It is still a crime and it still hurt people. Does a hate crime make it worse? A crime is a crime.
    If a white guy shoots another white guy to death, it's murder. If a white guy shoots a black guy to death, it's a hate crime? Isn't it still murder regardless of motive?
    Murder is murder---"hate crime" is political correctness!
    Caffeine is the key to motivation!

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    I won't argue with you over it either George on its merits

    The problem with thinking that this is a crime stat thing is that there is no way to hide this.
    Actually every NYPD cop and exNYPD cop has already told me how they CAN and DO dummy down the crimes so that it is no longer an index crime.

    I have a degree in criminology from a respected university and even back then before COMSTAT it was well known and taught to us how crime is counted and how it can be manipulated...I've read more books and taken more advanced stats classes than I care to remember and we all know how numbers, charts and graphs can be made to look however one wants them too. A felony-stolen goods can become a misdemeanor with the stroke of a pen.

    There have been a number of scandals in other major cities where they have tried to change crime figures by fudging the stats. It is also well known around here that if the numbers aren't coming down in a Pct. that the CO is called on the carpet and his job is on the line. Don't think for a second that when all emphasis is placed on reducing a certain crime stat that can be manipulated using "officer discretion" that they won't do it as an means to an end.

    We'll see what happens as I know many persons in the neighborhood aren't going to let this die with the local politicians and if things keep going this way...well I can assure you there are going to be allot of "For Sale" signs around Gerritsen and Fillmore Ave's.

    FTM-PTB

  9. #9
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Salem, Massachusetts
    Posts
    422

    Arrow Just wondering

    Is a crime, let's use murder, punishable the same or is it a harsher sentence if deemed a "hate crime"?
    Caffeine is the key to motivation!

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    Originally posted by FFFRED
    I won't argue with you over it either George on its merits



    Actually every NYPD cop and exNYPD cop has already told me how they CAN and DO dummy down the crimes so that it is no longer an index crime.

    I have a degree in criminology from a respected university and even back then before COMSTAT it was well known and taught to us how crime is counted and how it can be manipulated...I've read more books and taken more advanced stats classes than I care to remember and we all know how numbers, charts and graphs can be made to look however one wants them too. A felony-stolen goods can become a misdemeanor with the stroke of a pen.

    There have been a number of scandals in other major cities where they have tried to change crime figures by fudging the stats. It is also well known around here that if the numbers aren't coming down in a Pct. that the CO is called on the carpet and his job is on the line. Don't think for a second that when all emphasis is placed on reducing a certain crime stat that can be manipulated using "officer discretion" that they won't do it as an means to an end.

    We'll see what happens as I know many persons in the neighborhood aren't going to let this die with the local politicians and if things keep going this way...well I can assure you there are going to be allot of "For Sale" signs around Gerritsen and Fillmore Ave's.

    FTM-PTB
    Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that ther is no fudge factor. In a place like NYC, it is so easy it is not funny.

    I should have said that I am a believer in COMSTAT in theory. I have no direct knowledge of how it is used in NYC.

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    No. Providence R.I. : Land of the "How ya doins"
    Posts
    990

    Default

    Being very familiar with the Marine Park/Gerritsen Beach area, it really strikes me as odd. This is a predominately white area although there are projects on Knapp St. Usually a quiet area but I do know if the fight had been further down on Gerritsen Ave. there would have been serious problems for the attackers. Minorities aren't really recieved well down there. Any time one invokes race charged statements at another while using violence it immediately becomes a hate crime. End of Story.
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

    Edward F. Croker
    Chief 1899-1911
    Fire Dept. City of New York

    HOOK N' CAN of the I.A.C.O.J.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Flanders, NJ
    Posts
    13,537

    Default

    I heard a story this morning on WCBS 880 that a guy had been charged by NYPD with a hate crime because he singing "Hi Ho, Hi Ho" to a woman and her daughter, as well as painting a yellow line down their sidewalk and captioning it "the Yellow Brick Road" because they were 3'6". This is not right, but it is certainly far less than the incident described above.

    I can't find a link to this story. NJ, can you find it?

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    587

    Default Re: Black on white crime isn't a bias crime???

    Originally posted by FFFRED
    Brooklyn Skyline
    http://www.brooklynskyline.com/news_...p?c=ne&na=1486

    Non-Bias Attack

    April 11, 2005
    By Marianna Hernandez

    Invoking the name “Martin Luther King” and screaming “Black Power!” a gang of up to 30 black teens attacked four white girls in Marine Park in what police are saying is not a bias crime.FTM-PTB
    Maybe the police need to learn the FBI's definition of a hate crime.

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default At least someone came to their senses!

    NY Post

    RACIAL WRANGLE
    By ANGELINA CAPPIELLO and PATRICK GALLAHUE
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    April 25, 2005 -- City lawyers overruled the Police Department and charged a band of Brooklyn toughs with a hate crime for allegedly shouting, "Black power!" as they beat up a group of girls in Marine Park, The Post has learned.
    In a case that roiled racial tensions in Brooklyn — and became a rallying point on white-supremacy Web sites — locals are now second-guessing law enforcement.

    Cops locked up five of the alleged attackers — all juveniles — but did not charge them with a bias crime.

    The city's Corporation Counsel Office, which prosecutes cases in Family Court, raised the charges against the assailants.

    Sources said the initial report did not include the comments allegedly made by the suspects. "It should have been a hate crime from day one," fumed one parent.

    The attack took place on March 30 in Marine Park as six 15-year-old Catholic schoolgirls were shooting hoops on Fillmore Avenue and Marine Parkway at about 3 p.m.

    Police sources said six to eight black girls from Marine Park JHS marched into the middle of the white girls' three-on-three basketball game and demanded the court.

    Some adults intervened and the alleged assailants walked away only to return three or four times with a progressively larger gang, the victims said.

    Finally, a posse of 20 to 30 girls set upon the victims with kicks and punches, while shouting, "White crackers," "Black power," and, curiously, "Martin Luther King."

    "I thought I was going to die," one girl told The Post. "At first they just walked on our court. We didn't say anything. But they kept coming back. It looked like the crowd got bigger every time they came back."

    Several girls ran into traffic and another fled to a nearby house to ring a doorbell for help only to be dragged off the stoop by her hair, the victims said.

    A girl's mother said she drove over to the playground during the assault.

    "I drove into it, because I didn't have my house keys," the woman said. "I saw havoc on the streets when I drove up. My daughter said, 'Ma they're going to kill us.' "

    She managed to drive back into the park and collect the other five girls. Two girls were taken to a local hospital. One suffered a torn muscle in the forearm, had a chunk of her hair pulled out, and received a CAT scan because of kicks to the head.

    The second suffered a broken nose and a black eye. Police arrested five suspects, who were still nearby, after a witness pointed them out to officers.

    One parent said she and the other parents are planning to obtain a lawyer and take legal action — though she couldn't specify exactly what action would be taken.

    The attack left racial tensions simmering.

    "If you look at our community in Brooklyn, [hate crimes] are not down," said state Sen. Carl Kruger. "This is another reminder."

    Additional reporting by Erika Martinez

    Where is Rev. Al Sharpton and Jackson? Shouldn't they be marching, calling for justice and racial equality and an end to racisim? Oh I guess only some races are important. I thought we were all equal? I guess no...

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    DennisTheMenace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Washington, DC/Northern Virginia
    Posts
    3,717

    Default

    City lawyers overruled the Police Department and charged a band of Brooklyn toughs with a hate crime
    What is the problem now Fred? Seems that the system worked and the proper charges have been filed.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    HeavyRescueTech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    2,460

    Default

    Dennis, he's saying about damn time this happened. It should have happened at the begining, and the original charges filed should have been for a bias/hate crime.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    No problem as it shouldn't have had to come this far before the charges were raised.

    However I imagine you are unfamilar with the Family courts up here and most up here think they will get off much easier than if it was the other way around.

    I personally hope they sue them for violating their civil rights in federal court. If it were the other way around you'd have these Reverends who claim all people of all races are equal calling for riots 5 minutes after it happened...meanwhile we don't hear anything from their corner...hmmmmm makes one wonder.

    Saddly this took 1000s of letters and phone calls from the taxpayers to their councilmen to get it changed. There was political pressure applied in this case and it shouldn't have been an issue. The PD should have the done the right thing from the begining instead of worrying about their COMSTAT numbers.

    Just another day in NY.

    FTM-PTB
    Last edited by FFFRED; 04-25-2005 at 02:14 PM.

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    DennisTheMenace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Washington, DC/Northern Virginia
    Posts
    3,717

    Default

    That is what we have a "system" for, and in the end it worked. Cops grabed the bad guys, the DA's office looked at the case and pressed the correct charges.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Hey buddy, I've got a spoiler for you "the system" didn't work. It took the manipuation and really bad local press for the corp council to up the charges. However just as I said being as this is in family court the defendents will come in with the same crutch used by these racists for years... It isn't my fault, it was the victims fault.

    I really don't know what utopia you live in however this isn't a joke as I know some of those who were involved. When "the system" has to be cajoled and manipulated by poltical pressure then it didn't work...in fact it failed us all.

    FTM-PTB

  20. #20
    Forum Member
    DennisTheMenace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Washington, DC/Northern Virginia
    Posts
    3,717

    Default

    Originally posted by FFFRED
    Hey buddy, I've got a spoiler for you "the system" didn't work. It took the manipuation and really bad local press for the corp council to up the charges. However just as I said being as this is in family court the defendents will come in with the same crutch used by these racists for years... It isn't my fault, it was the victims fault.

    I really don't know what utopia you live in however this isn't a joke as I know some of those who were involved. When "the system" has to be cajoled and manipulated by poltical pressure then it didn't work...in fact it failed us all.

    FTM-PTB
    That is all part of the system. Family Court has gone that way for folks of all colors for years. Its job is rehabilitation more then punishment, always has been always will be. Some times it works, sometimes it does not, when it fails, the system throws them in the pokie later down the line.

    And who's joking about it? The system worked, it is that simple. The cops made the arrest and initial charges, the DA's office looked at the case and all the mitigating circumstances and made the right call. Frankly, I don't want a beat cop making the call on something as serious as a Hate Crime, no matter the color of the perp or the victem.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    firenresq77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    5,213

    Default

    This left me speechless........ Don't know how I missed this before. It is sad that it took all kinds of poking and prodding to get the charges where they are supposed to be...........
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
    IACOJ

  22. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Thumbs down Double Standard...hmmm..looks like one.

    NY POST Sees Double Standard of Marine Park & HB
    --------------------------------------------

    Saturday, July 2, 2005
    N.Y. Post Editorial

    IT'S THE CRIME, STUPID

    More than a few New Yorkers, it seems, are wondering if the ugly attack by three young white men against three blacks in Howard Beach Wednesday is evidence of a double standard when it comes to hate crimes.

    Numerous letters to The Post note that in March some 30 black teenagers were accused of attacking six Catholic-school girls at a basketball court in Marine Park, Brooklyn — sending two to the hospital.

    Police say the attackers screamed "black power" and hurled epithets at the girls, such as "white crackers."

    Howard Beach (or worse) in reverse?

    Not quite.

    At first, the perpetrators in Brooklyn were charged merely with assault; only weeks later, after a largely local ruckus, were hate-crime charges filed.

    There were no press conferences.

    Mayor Bloomberg did not interrupt his dinner and rush to the scene.

    City Council Speaker Giff Miller and Manhattan Borough President Virginia Fields made no effort to boost their mayoral bids by deploring "racial violence."

    Making a stink (let alone getting arrested or launching a hunger strike) was the last thing on Al Sharpton's mind.

    How different at Howard Beach, with a white attacker and a black victim: Within hours — and little more known (publicly, anyway) than that a few racial slurs allegedly were uttered — Nicholas Minucci was charged with a hate crime.

    Mayor Mike was skipping dessert, racing to Queens and vowing "zero tolerance" for race-baiting.

    And every other Gotham pol and activist was tripping over one another in a mad dash to the microphone, looking to milk the story for all it was worth.

    Double standard?

    Looks that way.

    It's hard to imagine that the Marine Park cops ignoring the hate-crime statutes if a gang of whites had attacked a much smaller number of black kids. And if they had, they would have been hauled up short by One Police Plaza.

    But, either way, it was the physical attack that should count most. Not the ugly language or even motives.

    Minucci admitted beating Glenn Moore, who is black; Moore admitted prowling for a car to steal. Isn't all that more important than the fact that Minucci mouthed off, uttering slurs?

    We've always opposed hate-crime laws: The underlying crimes — in this instance, assault — carry sufficiently severe penalties if they are vigorously enforced.

    Yes, there are times when mere "talk" leads to crime, as when someone incites a riot (racial or otherwise).

    But even then, it's the incitement that should be criminal — the particular terms used are incidental to the act itself.

    In any event, if there are going to be "anti-hate" laws, they must be applied equally — whether it's white-on-black crime, black-on-white or green-on-purple. Because when folks see a double standard, then respect for all laws is diminished — and chaos is encouraged.

    No one wants that.

  23. #23
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Reiffton Fire Company, Exeter, PA
    Posts
    402

    Default

    Originally posted by RESERVE172

    I agree, ALL crime has hate on some level. So why do we call it a hate crime? It is still a crime and it still hurt people. Does a hate crime make it worse? A crime is a crime.
    If a white guy shoots another white guy to death, it's murder. If a white guy shoots a black guy to death, it's a hate crime? Isn't it still murder regardless of motive?
    Murder is murder---"hate crime" is political correctness!
    Actually, to my knowledge, it's a little bit different than that. The hate crime label would come in when the white guy shoots the black guy for the sole reason that he is black. But I definitely agree with you...

    As far as the original post, that's complete BS, if you're going to make racism an issue, make it go both ways....

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register