1. #1
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    Post Los Angeles Fire Dept. Investigation

    LOS ANGELES (AP) - The city controller promised to launch an
    investigation of the Los Angeles Fire Department following reports
    of harassment and hazing at city fire stations.
    In a letter to Fire Chief William Bammatre, City Controller
    Laura Chick demanded "findings, conclusions and recommendations"
    on how to eliminate what department officials have called a
    "disturbing trend."
    Chick also said she plans to conduct her own audit of the
    department, looking into recruitment and advancement policies, as
    well as how women and minorities are treated.
    "I'm angry, very angry," Chick said Friday. "Hazing and
    harassment are illegal. I want to hear the magnitude, the breadth
    of it and the depth of the problem, and the complaints and
    incidents, and - very importantly - what are they doing about it?"
    So far, fire officials say, 11 Los Angeles Fire Department
    employees have been disciplined for their involvement in four
    incidents. The incidents included two female rookie firefighters
    being put through grueling drills by male supervisors, the placing
    of a dead rat in a black firefighter's locker and the placing of
    dog food in a black firefighter's dinner.
    "We appreciate Ms. Chick's concern, which we share," said
    Deputy Chief Andrew Fox. "We're taking very strong, aggressive
    action in terms of discipline and corrective action to deal with
    those issues."

    (Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

    APTV 04-23-05 1017EDT
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    Here's what i know - the female firefighters were not held to the same standards as the male firefighters going through the academy. Drill instructors were quoted as saying that they will "learn the ropes" at their respective stations. Don't know who is to blame here but i do know how easy it is for a female to play the lawsuit card. Also, there are quite a few excellent female firefighters all up and down the chain of command that make their male peers look like idiots. As far as the rat and dog food incidents go, i don't know too much about them. I do remeber eating milk bones with my dog when i was a kid.

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    Son,

    From here, it's sadly clear that "what you know" is not much of anything . You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but I do think that in the future you might wish to choose your words more carefully. What you think, feel or surmise is far different from what you know.

    Even if one reads the Daily News article twice (which I suggest), those not intimately involved truly "know" little at this time.

    Have a good day, and make it a safe one.

    Brian
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    My apology for the idiot comment. I guess we shall wait and see what comes out in the official investigation.

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    mesman:

    No apology is necessary. I just want you to do well in your future pursuit of a Fire Service career. Confidence is a good thing at the right place and time. It can however, be a deadly attribute in others. Ditto for opinions, which in this forum, are rightful to share and easily accepted when labeled as such.

    No pun intended... I happen to "know" one young man who failed miserably in an oral interview when he *quite* confidently told a Chief that he "knew" the Department was going to be starting an academy on a particular date and also "knew" exactly how many the Department would be hiring.

    Best Wishes,

    Brian
    Please no e-mail. Public replies only. Thank you!

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    Default Yo Brian...

    Thanks for fixing the young pup up.

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    Oh boy, here we go with more discrimination crap.

    I just read the article and started laughing out loud harder than I have in a long time! "Feed the Big Dog", "Feed the Big Dog", "Keep feeding the Big Dog". This guy must have been as annoying as a child asking, "Are we there yet", every 30 seconds. If we all saw this gag on "Rescue Me", we would have all laughed because we would all be wondering who was going to try it. White or black or purple, all they did was exactly what he told them to. Sh*t like that happens all the time. It's a joke taken too seriously.

    As far as the guy who got the dead rat, depending on what he did (my guess is he said the wrong thing to the wrong person), it sounds to me like they were, albeit in an unorthodox manner, quietly trying to send him a message. I know I was when I did it -- yeah, you heard right -- (actually, it was a dead pigeon not a rat and not in his locker but in his duffle bag). He said something derogatory about my kids at the dinner table in front of everyone. I was young and I thought he was way out of line. BTW- He was white. His skin color had nothing to do with it.

    I've witnessed first hand, discrimination involving women, IN THEIR FAVOR!

    I remember taking the PAT and the training, the stress and the anxiety leading up to it. It was a satisfying accomplishment to pass it but one event was especially difficult for me, the hose drag. You only get 20 seconds to pull a simulated, charged 4" line through a right angled U shaped tunnel that only measures about 4'wide x 4'tall. In my first attempt, my lid came off near the end, so I was required to do it over again. In my second attempt, I successfully completed the event in just under the 20 seconds. I'm a big guy and had trouble with the limited height of the tunnel. Well, the instructor gave me so much sh*t for my time, you would have thought I just got his daughter pregnant or something. But I passed, so I just moved on to prepare for the next event.

    You are allowed a very short break between events. While waiting my turn for the next event, myself and some others, noticed that the next candidate for the hose drag was a black woman. She too had difficulty with this event and had to repeat it again and then again. She too was yelled at by the instructor. With her small frame she had a hard time with the weight of the hose. She repeatedly failed the time requirement(not even close to 20sec.) but was told to move on to the next event.(to allow others to take their turn)


    Well, I continued on to finish and pass the other events without any more problems or any more yelling. While cooling down and drinking some water with other candidates that had finished before me, we all watched her finish too. Because she failed the hose drag earlier, they allowed her one more chance to get it. Well guess what? She didn't make it! That is until she broke down right then and there. She got so upset and made the instructors feel so bad for her they decided her time was "good enough" and they would pass her! Talk about a turn of events. She then proceeded to literally jump for joy screaming,"thank you!, thank you!" and gave all the instructors a hug!

    Needless to say, all the male candidates were a little upset themselves, knowing damn well if it was one of them, they would not have been given a passing score.

    The article mentions the fact that the standards for women are lower and they are expected to be trained out in the field. Well they got the training but couldn't handle it. Not every guy can handle it either but that doesn't make it discrimination.
    Caffeine is the key to motivation!

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    Reserve172, what article did you read that said women were held to a different standard and expected to be trained in the field? Neither NJ's post nor LAFDPSO's linked article say that happened.

    The linked story contains the following quote: "The department is hiring people below standards, and they're sending them to the field expecting us to train them, Then when we train them the way they're supposed to be trained, they immediately file charges. The department is setting us up for failure."

    The quote is from one of the people accused of misconduct, so it can hardly be said that his opinion is unbiased. Additionally, the quote doesn't single out female firefighters or identify what standards (mental, physical, etc) have supposedly been lowered. Just by the 'trained in the field' part, it seems to me like he's complaining about the quality of recruits in general. Sort of a "what's wrong with kids today" complaint.

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    Originally posted by EFD840

    The linked story contains the following quote: "The department is hiring people below standards, and they're sending them to the field expecting us to train them, Then when we train them the way they're supposed to be trained, they immediately file charges. The department is setting us up for failure."
    This is what I read and exactly what I was referring to.

    Go back and read the story. It may not be specific but it is basically an admission that there seems to be some amount of leniency in the physical testing of women in the hiring process. This was my interpretation from the report of what happened and the comments made.

    I must say that this also seems to be somewhat of a generalization of women. I'm sure there are some women that take the test and pass the test (including the PAT) and perform very well at their job. They earned it and they got the job. Just as there are some male candidates that don't do well enough on the test. They didn't earn it so they didn't get the job, but at least it was on their own merit.
    Caffeine is the key to motivation!

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    Originally posted by RESERVE172

    This is what I read and exactly what I was referring to.

    Go back and read the story. It may not be specific but it is basically an admission that there seems to be some amount of leniency in the physical testing of women in the hiring process. This was my interpretation from the report of what happened and the comments made.

    There is no admission of any sort, there is an allegation of that by the accused, not really an unbiased source or a reliable representative of the Department in such an issue.
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    Originally posted by EFD840
    Reserve172, what article did you read that said women were held to a different standard and expected to be trained in the field? Neither NJ's post nor LAFDPSO's linked article say that happened.

    The linked story contains the following quote: "The department is hiring people below standards, and they're sending them to the field expecting us to train them, Then when we train them the way they're supposed to be trained, they immediately file charges. The department is setting us up for failure."

    The quote is from one of the people accused of misconduct, so it can hardly be said that his opinion is unbiased. Additionally, the quote doesn't single out female firefighters or identify what standards (mental, physical, etc) have supposedly been lowered. Just by the 'trained in the field' part, it seems to me like he's complaining about the quality of recruits in general. Sort of a "what's wrong with kids today" complaint.
    It does single out females because they are the ones accusing them of harsh training, not the two male firefighters that had different problems.

    The training being referred to is the physical training because it mentions the fact that she DROPPED A LADDER ON TWO FIREFIGHTERS!!! Hello? How does THAT happen? There is a ladder event in the PAT, not to mention the training at The Academy. If she was properly trained and not just allowed to move along, that accident probably wouldn't have happened and she wouldn't have experienced the necessary, harsh training she received in the field.

    One small but important side note: She Quit!!!

    But I suppose you would say she was forced to.
    Caffeine is the key to motivation!

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