Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 36 of 36
  1. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    North Wisconsin
    Posts
    165

    Thumbs up

    Excellent thread and very interesting article.

    My question would be - given the apparent size of the room in the picture (you can see the corner of the room behind the fire), if you were a three man search team without water.. would you send two FF's into that room and close the door, or send one in for a primary search while as an officer you directed from an open door? Would appear to me, and I'd be happy to accept that this room may not illustrate the kind of snatch rescue search that the article really addressed, that closing the door on a primary search team on a room of this size would hamper rescue efforts (difficulty communicating, time taken, movement of personnel and possible victim). Would love to hear opinions or experience from anyone.

    Also would like to hear from others whether while performing a primary search on for example a residential occupancy with fire conditions in a room similar to that, would you close that door (without searching that room) to prevent additional fire spread, write off the survivability of that room and concentrate your primary search to areas immediately adjacent (high risk areas)? Or would you commit personnel to that room first?

    Again, great article, and would appreciate others input.

    Cheers


  2. #22
    EuroFirefighter.com PaulGRIMWOOD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    831

    Default

    Fawlty -

    You make an excellent point and observation. The article carried a two-fold message.

    1. Air-control should be maintained either at the street door and/or at entry to the compartment itself.

    2. Air control should be maintained by not venting the window in question prior to water being applied to the fire.

    Your points are most valid. I would agree that the room is not large and visibility in this case appears good. I would still control air-flow entering the main street doorway. I would agree that room may well be searched by one firefighter, under the circumstances, with 1-2 outside. I would ensure that the firefighter at the doorway is experienced enough to recognise the stage of fire development and know he/she has control over it at that doorway. Even closing it halfway may delay flashover sufficiently.

    Your second point - I would always search that room before closing the door and searching away from the fire. At that stage the environment is survivable for occupants. Come back in two minutes and it most likely won't be, door open or closed.

    Good post!

  3. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    North Wisconsin
    Posts
    165

    Default Great Thread

    Paul,

    Thanks for your insight and taking the time to reply. Appreciate it greatly

  4. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    868

    Default

    Paul,

    Do you know of anyone making a push-on fog tip for water cans? I'm just wondering if someone(maybe the Swede's) have come up with an extra tip that can be rapidly fitted to a can to give it a suitable fog pattern for fire gas pulsing/cooling?
    Busy polishing the stacked tips on the deckgun of I.A.C.O.J. Engine#1

    ...and before you ask - YES I have done a Bloody SEARCH!

  5. #25
    EuroFirefighter.com PaulGRIMWOOD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    831

    Default

    No I haven't heard of such a tip for an extiguisher (can) but I know a thumb placed over the end of the nozzle does a pretty good job

  6. #26
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    868

    Default

    Originally posted by PaulGRIMWOOD
    ...but I know a thumb placed over the end of the nozzle does a pretty good job
    LOL - and here was silly me thinking that getting the right droplet size required precise nozzle engineering - do you "pulse" the extinguisher though or just let 'er rip?

    This does now beg another question - if your engine doesn't carry the traditional water can(don't ask - I'm still fighting that battle), then can you use an AFFF extinguisher for compartment gas cooling? or will the foam concentrate in the water interfere with the gas cooling? and should you try to block the air intakes on the foam extinguisher nozzle?
    Busy polishing the stacked tips on the deckgun of I.A.C.O.J. Engine#1

    ...and before you ask - YES I have done a Bloody SEARCH!

  7. #27
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    metro detroit
    Posts
    85

    Default search or extinguishment?

    The question on the poll is if you would vent the window before WATER is applied, and the answer should be yes. I definately wouldn't vent prior to my SEARCH of the room in the picture with it's current conditions. We've been using PPV for 20 years now and everything I see in the picture tells me that the fire is confined to the one room and we can push it out the window seen in the picture. After reading what Paul wrote in the article I would agree to not vent until the room has been searched, but by all means once we open the nozzle on this fire I hope it has some place to go besides back on the attack crew.

  8. #28
    Forum Member backsteprescue123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    I voted and correctly I might add, but a quick question. Wouldn't venting the window draw the fire closer because it is going to find the freshly introduced oxygen coming in from the window??
    ------------------------------------
    These opinions are mine and do not reflect the opinions of any organizations I am affiliated with.
    ------------------------------------

  9. #29
    EuroFirefighter.com PaulGRIMWOOD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    831

    Default

    Sometimes there will be opposing views in this tactical approach - 'to vent or not to vent - that is the question'

    The poll has received excellent response to date and demonstrates 2-1 of almost 500 votes in favour against venting the window prior to water being applied.

    In any PPV aplication the SOP would/should normally advise venting the window prior to water being applied, ie before firefighters enter the structure. I once sat in a room & contents fire, from start to finish, to observe conditions under variable parameters. This was a training burn and the room was far from fully loaded. I would not suggest you do this by the way as 1403 was not fully complied with. However, there were two observers in the room and we had one hose-line to protect ourselves. RIT were in place and the drill was carefully coordinated by a VERY experienced team of firefighters. Our objective was to compare different tactical approaches.

    The fire was ignited in a chair in one corner of the room away from the window. The room was not at all disimilar to the one you see in the picture (from the article)
    although the fire was several feet further to the left. We observed the fire's progression with the door open and the window intact and it went near to flashover. Visibility was clear in the lower half of the room. There were small pockets of fire gases, the size of a party balloon, bursting into flame just 2-3 feet from the floor. As we closed the room door behind us the burn rate immediately reduced to almost nothing but the smoke layer descended to the floor within a few short seconds and visibility was almost zero. You could hear the 'crackle' of the fire but no longer had such a clear view of it, as in the picture. However, the heat flux in the room was dramatically reduced by closing the door and without any water being applied we had stopped flashover.

    Then about 30 seconds later we opened the door slowly and again the fire jumped to life. The flame plume was heading over our heads towards the door behind us. Then we called for venting .... the window was taken from outside and immediately the fire plume changed direction and headed towards the window. I have to say the heat in the room did appear to reduce at our position. However, the burn rate was increasing visibly further although a lot of heat was leaving via the window. Then a PPV air-flow enetered the room behind us and all reamining combustion products, smoke and gases, were simply ejected out through that window. Conditions were at their best since we had been there. All this time no water had been applied but for 1-2 brief bursts into the overhead to cool the gases.

    I tell you, I was pretty convinced with the PPV application. The room had been thermo-coupled and after we were able to read the computer data during each phase of the experiment that clearly showed the benefits of PPV.

    PPV offers distinct benefits to the firefighter. However, it sometimes produces very bad effects which are dependant on construction; effective application (ensure the vent opening prior to adding PPV); sutitable geometry; reading the effects; and luck! Some PPV ops have caused worsening fire conditions, flashovers, backdrafts and lead to firefighter deaths.

    In all my fire experience I have come to the conclusion that every tool in the book has its place. PPV is not always predictable but in some situations it is ideal. In other situations the confinement of a fire is the safest option until we are ready with the water.

    Like I say, I never support working ahead of the fire stream to search. However, some of the greatest rescues have occurred this way. Ideally both attack and search should occur together .... not always possible. Where search goes ahead of the hose-line .... control of the air-flow is essential.

  10. #30
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    31

    Default Good Topic...

    Öbut like a few mentioned previously I am not one to normally recommend working ahead of the initial attack line. I am a firm believer the best and quickest way to save and protect lives is to control the fire and thus eliminate the further spread of heat and smoke. Now if I were to arrive prior to the first engine and was given a credible report of a trapped victim would I make an attempt at a search? I will give you that answer the day after I have faced such a scenario. That, I tell the men below me, is a personal choice we each have to make at the time based on the conditions facing us and our comfort in our individual abilities. Now back to the picture and the question of to vent or not to vent. If searching with no water then do not vent. If attacking with a hose line venting just prior to the attack is not necessary but would not hurt either. This fire can be knocked down in about 10-15 seconds if that with a 1.75" line then the window can be opened with out breaking to facility ventilation and retain control of the window opening. Back to the searching ahead of the hose stream issue. If you choose to follow this practice bring a water can if available. You would be surprised how much fire you can knock down with 2.5 gallons when applied properly. The fire in the picture could be knocked down with a water can, not fully extinguished, but effectively knocked down.

  11. #31
    EuroFirefighter.com PaulGRIMWOOD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    831

    Default

    Now if I were to arrive prior to the first engine and was given a credible report of a trapped victim would I make an attempt at a search? I will give you that answer the day after I have faced such a scenario. That, I tell the men below me, is a personal choice we each have to make at the time based on the conditions facing us and our comfort in our individual abilities.

    Cirrus - I respect that view and you make good points in your post. However, I would pose this question - should we have an SOP where Primary Searches take place ahead of any hose-line?

    Personally, I would suggest that we do. There are points that need to be addressed and every firefighter in your department needs to be working with the same game-plan. Vent control; accountability; tactical venting inline with primay searches; buddy system; 2 in 2 out; etc. I am not sure we should expect firefighters to operate under such circumstances without SOPs.

  12. #32
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    31

    Default Paul

    I am a firm believer of KISS (keep it simple stupid) and thus also like to keep my SOG's simple and flexible. As a high ranking officer on my dept I have a difficult time ordering my men to operate within a structure without the protection of a hose line. Off course there are times it may become necessary or even be practical to do so, particularly at small incipient stage fires, but the safety of my men is priority number one and I cannot, in good conscious, subject them to unnecessary risks. Each fire is unique and with each one I must quickly analyze the situation at hand and determine the risk to benefit factor when formulating my strategic goals and tactical objectives. Do not get me wrong I am also a strong proponent of aggressive interior firefighting operations and our department as a long history operating in such fashion. But I do not ever want to make a call to a family member of one of my firefighters to tell them their husband, son etc was seriously injured or worse at a fire. Keeping my men behind the hose line does not eliminate this chance but greatly reduces it imo. And lastly no one will ever convince me that quickly confining and extinguishing the fire is not the best way to protect the lives of victims and the safety of my men while also preventing additional property damage. A quick and aggressive interior attack with primary searches conducted by the hose team quickly followed by secondary searches from a dedicated search team is my ideal manor of operating.

  13. #33
    EuroFirefighter.com PaulGRIMWOOD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    831

    Post Cirrus

    Yes I cannot fault your viewpoint in any way. I find myself in agreement with your philosophy in every way and I myself have, for many years, placed great emphasis on 'taking the fire first', or confining the fire ahead of the primary attack hose-line where search is undertaken.

    However, I have also seen and heard of firefighters losing their lives where they found themselves working on their own in small crews, isolated from immediate back-up, in situations where such a choice had to be made .... attempt the 'snatch' of trapped occupants or wait for the water .... ? It's never an easy choice and yet, it's nearly always a choice that's made without any (or little) thought of personal safety. Of course firefighters use all their training, experience and senses to fine tune their awareness of what is the right things to do to make their approach safer. Sometimes this is not enough.

    Example - fire (heavy smoke) on ground floor at rear but children reported trapped on floor above. Four firefighters have tank supply water .... back-up about 4 minutes away .... we have a choice now .... take the fire or rescue? The fire cannot be immediately located or confined. Those kids are in there .... can we wait the four minutes?

    If we go in it must be SOP'd (imho) taking account of a pre-set 'minimum crew' series of actions. Possibly the most important is the siting of a vent-control firefighter (officer) at a key position.

    Of course, you can train for this scenario .... you can freelance it .... but if we go with it, far better to have an SOP for minimal crewing so that decisions are easier to follow ensuring all key functions are actioned.

    Just my opinion ....

  14. #34
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    868

    Default Re: Cirrus

    Originally posted by PaulGRIMWOOD
    If we go in it must be SOP'd (imho) taking account of a pre-set 'minimum crew' series of actions. Possibly the most important is the siting of a vent-control firefighter (officer) at a key position.
    Without an experienced firefighter or officer controlling the front door(assuming that is the entry point), the potential for disaster is huge - the second arriving crew could easily cause the interior to flashover due to the sudden introduction of a huge "stream" of oxygen, trapping the search crew inside. As Paul said - you have to ensure that the front door is controlled - whether you do this by SOP, riding positions, lots of training in how first arriving companies are going to search without a hoseline, or by the officer of the first due appointing someone to control the door - whoever you do it, it must be done somehow.
    Busy polishing the stacked tips on the deckgun of I.A.C.O.J. Engine#1

    ...and before you ask - YES I have done a Bloody SEARCH!

  15. #35
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    868

    Default

    Does anyone remember that video footage that was discussed on here a couple of years ago? - it showed a firefighter venting an upstairs window on the B side of a two story house. A few seconds after the window was taken the entire top floor flashed over, and then a firefighter comes stumbling out of the front door.

    I've tried doing a search for the thread but without luck so far - and a copy of that video would be very handy for a class that I'm preparing.

    Certainly that video footage graphically demonstrates what we are talking about in this thread about how venting a long way from the fire can cause bad results.
    Busy polishing the stacked tips on the deckgun of I.A.C.O.J. Engine#1

    ...and before you ask - YES I have done a Bloody SEARCH!

  16. #36
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    1,744

    Default

    I am returning here just because Paul has lured back from my FH retirement. Good threads can do that.

    While I would say, based on the conditions shown, that you could search without venting. There may be a time where venting would be necessary. As long as you are aware of you enviroment and the conditions, if the venting of that window allows you to make a grab or finish the search of that room, then you "gots to do what you gitys to do".

    Ton Brennan discusses this frequently, and not to quote him as I don't want to srew it up, but the gist of his message is that if venting a window will make the room a bit more tenable, or increase your comfort level enough to complete the search, then do it. Just be aware of what will happen if you do. Controlling the door will be key if you vent the window, to reducxe the change of a blowtorch into that hallway.

    As for the working ahead of the line, there are so many varibles that can affect it; manpower, policies, and training to name a few. If your Department is set up and trained to search ahead of the line then do it. Sometimes putting out the fire isn't the best way to save a life.....

    Thanks Paul.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts