Pump suction intakes

[neiowa]

No doubt ignorant but need advice/discussion.

Our rural fire district has no hydrants. All water flowing into a pumper in this area since the dawn of time has been at a draft from a portatank. Our "New" truck has 5" suction intake each side 1000gpm Hale. We use a Piston Intake Relief Valve and 10' of light weight clear PVC draft hose and low depth strainer on the drivers side.

I'm completing a project where we will have a 350000gal fire pond/pump/hydrant so we can fill tanker or lay LDH to fire in town. Issue is how we hook LDH to the pumper. Assumption is hydrant/pump output of 1500gpm @ 120psi. 1500' of 5" LDH with 20psi residual at LDH output.

Pumper has 5" suction and also 2.5" swivel suction each side. Common I believe. Where/when are the 2.5" used? We are going to purchase (fire grant $) 5" Storz adapter to install on the pumper (the LDH supply). Not sure we want to perm. install the adapter on the 5" as most fires will be rural (portatank). So what are the limitations of the 2.5" suction? Can 2.5" suction handle 1000+gpm flow?

[bobsnyder]

First off...no, a 2.5" auxiliary intake, if it even supports drafting at all, will not support 1,000 gpm. You will need to use one of the the 5" intakes, preferably right into the pump eye.

As for the uses for 2.5" auxiliary intakes, the answer is "not many." We have a 2,000 gpm engine on which we spec'ed one 6" intake, a dual 6" pants-leg style intake on an 8" pipe, a front 5" intake/discharge, and one auxiliary 2.5" intake on the pump panel. The 2.5" basically gets used to fill the tank from a hydrant, or for a quick 3" line from a tanker to hold over while LDH is being established. That's really all those little intakes are good for, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm also a little curious as to how you plan to flow 1,500 gpm with a rig rated at 1,000 gpm. I've seen rigs where the only difference between a 1,000 rating and a 1,250 rating some simple re-piping (one of our tanker-pumpers was one), but 1,500 might be a stretch. Was that a typo??

[Bones42]

Get a wye and use both 2.5" intakes. Have the 5" come from the tank/pump/hydrant and then at the truck, split into 2 2.5" lines for the short distance into the intakes on each side.

Although, if the 5" is coming that far, using the adapter to put the 5" straight into the 5" intake would be easier.

[bobsnyder]

Originally posted by Bones42
Get a wye and use both 2.5" intakes. Have the 5" come from the tank/pump/hydrant and then at the truck, split into 2 2.5" lines for the short distance into the intakes on each side.

Although, if the 5" is coming that far, using the adapter to put the 5" straight into the 5" intake would be easier.

Everything you said works on the receiving end of the supply, but I think he was talking about the other end of the operation...he wants to draft 1,000 gpm through a 2.5" intake. That's not going to work. In fact, many 2.5" auxiliary intakes really aren't even setup for drafting at all.

[Bones42]

Oh, I assumed he was using the pond/pump/hydrant as the supply for the engine and that he would not be needing to draft.

[ChiefDog]

Issue is how we hook LDH to the pumper. Assumption is hydrant/pump output of 1500gpm @ 120psi. 1500' of 5" LDH with 20psi residual at LDH output

If I am understanding you correctly, the system you put in will be a pressurized system and you are wondering how to get the 5" LDH into the truck.

We draft off the pump operators panel and have a gate on the large intake. This allows you to stop using the port-a-tank and go to the booster tank on the truck. Seems you have that setup too.

Our LDH intake and discharge is on the opposite side of the truck for safety. We go into a piston intake relief on that side with the 5" storz connection from the LDH.

DO NOT put 5"LDH into the truck without a relief valve. (Depending on the age of the truck it has one or not.) Do the math, 8.33 X 1000gpm = 8333 lbs of water heading towards the truck. Stop it quick and you got issues!

Our 2.5" auxilary suctions are used to fill the booster tank and pump between trucks providing we don't need huge flows.

[oldman21220]

Try drafting thru the 5" and 2.5" at the same time. I think you'll be pleased with the result.

[arhaney]

Are you perhaps talking about how to supply the 5" LDH with your pumper and which outlets to use?

[SpartanGuy]

If you're concerned about installing the storz adapters onto the 5" steamer connections on your pump panels, you can always put a storz adatper on your hard suction hoses. We do it, actually. I think there might be some minor flow loss, but it does decrease set up time dramatically, and it allows you to use the 5" intake for LDH or drafting without any time consuming adapter removal/additions on the scene...

[arhaney]

Originally posted by SpartanGuy
If you're concerned about installing the storz adapters onto the 5" steamer connections on your pump panels, you can always put a storz adatper on your hard suction hoses. We do it, actually. I think there might be some minor flow loss, but it does decrease set up time dramatically, and it allows you to use the 5" intake for LDH or drafting without any time consuming adapter removal/additions on the scene...

I have to mirror that thought. Last year we converted all of our hard suction to storz adapters and installed a Ball Intake valve. best money we've ever spent! Just make sure and replace the storz pressure gaskets to suction gaskets. The manufacturer will furnish these for free on request.

[Rayr49]

I agree with SpartanGuy. We have used Storz adapters on our LDH, Hard suction, and intake valves for years.

Make sure the Gaskets on the Storz are vacuum gaskets and not pressure gaskets. You can't maintain a suction with pressure gaskets.

I would not consider the 2.5" intakes for large flows. They not designed for that purpose.

Stay Safe
IACOJ

[neiowa]

To clarify.

Electric pump/hydrant located at the pond to flow 1500gpm @120psi. Thru 5" LDH max of 1500ft to fire scene (no relay pumper at the hydrant is planned). Pumper/engine (1000gpm) is at the fire scene (pump test 2 weeks ago was 1240gpm @ 150psi).

The other end of the LDH "problem" operation of the new Akron monitor (5" Storz inlet on the ground mount base) we just purchased with with 04 fire grant $. Monitor is 1000gpm in ground mount mode. Pumper only has 2.5" outlets so thinking of 2.5F to 5" S adapter. Likely max "attack" line to the monitor would be 250' so friction loss neglible. Adding an additional large dia output to the pump would be at least somewhat expensive. Need to call Hale I guess as I'm not sure what max flow from a 2.5" would/could be in it was the only discharge in use.

[neiowa]

Originally posted by ChiefDog

Our LDH intake and discharge is on the opposite side of the truck for safety. We go into a piston intake relief on that side with the 5" storz connection from the LDH.

DO NOT put 5"LDH into the truck without a relief valve. (Depending on the age of the truck it has one or not.) Do the math, 8.33 X 1000gpm = 8333 lbs of water heading towards the truck. Stop it quick and you got issues!

Our pumper is an 1985 L9000 (very nice truck we purchased in 03), has relief.

Interesting point on use of piston intake relief. At the pump operator class I took some time ago, the instruction was to remove the piston intake from the 5" intake when hooking to a hydrant (not an operation we expected to undertake so I many not have been paying full attention and may have that wrong). In our case we are actually hooked on the end of 300' to 1500' of LDH, not directly to hydrant.

LDH safety concerns with using the intake at the pumper operators station (left side)??? My thought was did not want to remove the piston intake from the left side intake, install Storz adapter and then attach the LDH. Maybe the answer is to just leave the Storz adapter on the pumpers right side 5" intake.

But do we need a piston intake on the LDH intake? If we do then simple answer is to leave storz adapter installed on the piston intake and install a storz adapter on the hard suction. Opinions?

www.stanleyiowa.com

[arhaney]

Seems like about 500-600 gpm is all you can get from a single 2.5" outlet.

[npfd801]

Someone more knowledgable than myself will chime in here, but I suspect the friction loss of the small amount of 2.5 or 3 inch piping going to that discharge would be no more than what you would lose going through two short sections of 3" into a siamese to feed that 5".

I guess you could lay twin 3" supplies to the montior and feed it off a siamese, but that defeats the purpose of having a monitor capable of accepting the LDH to begin with.

Might be worth your while to acquire a pitot gauge and buy a 2.5" to 5" Storz adapter to see what kind of flow you'll get out of that setup. Easily the lowest cost solution, and you may come close enough to 1000gpm to call it good. Deck guns flow big water and they're usually only piped with 3" from the pump.

I've checked out the stuff you've done on your site (I'm pretty confident its you, matching Ford engine and tanker?), and I've got to commend the out of the box thinking. The static water supply in the bladders is impressive, as well as the rest of the military sourced equipment.

[neiowa]

Originally posted by npfd801


I've checked out the stuff you've done on your site (I'm pretty confident its you, matching Ford engine and tanker?), and I've got to commend the out of the box thinking. The static water supply in the bladders is impressive, as well as the rest of the military sourced equipment.

Thats me, Mr outside of the box. I've scared off our state forester with my project to convert a M911 tank (big gun/tracks) transporter into a super jumbo water tanker.

Our water supply for the last 100 years has been 7mi each way to nearest hydrant. Then up to 7mi more to end of fire district. A problem. The blivets/bladders are free for the hauling thru your state forester. Many available. I got 12ea 20000gal blivets(also available in 3000,5000, 50000,& 230000gal). Brand new in the crate. Also got 2x 500gpm gas engine pumps from the Army for tanker truck load from the blivets. The water in the blivets gets a bit thick around the outside edges in Jan but still flow out the bottom. But 2 winters "testing" they are not damaged by freezing. I've decided the trick in Iowa is to flip them upside down so the 4" port in down and the 1.5" (drain) is on top. We plan to move the blivets into the rural area for "dry hydrants" when our town fire reservoir is completed this spring.

[Rayr49]

Is the relief valve an "Intake" relief valve? I suspect that that vintage engine has a relief valve on the discharge side of the pump but not the intake.

You must have a relief valve on the intake side when working with LDH. The simplest method is to use Storz on the LDH, Hard Suction and intake valve.

I have never heard of removing the piston intake when hooking to a hydrant. We use the piston intake to switch from tank to hydrant without shutting down the pump. We always advise the crews that we are switching just in case we lose prime for some reason.

Stay Safe
IACOJ

[neiowa]

Originally posted by Rayr49
Is the relief valve an "Intake" relief valve? I suspect that that vintage engine has a relief valve on the discharge side of the pump but not the intake.Correct discharge relief, I thng that was his question

You must have a relief valve on the intake side when working with LDH. The simplest method is to use Storz on the LDH, Hard Suction and intake valve.

I have never heard of removing the piston intake when hooking to a hydrant. We use the piston intake to switch from tank to hydrant without shutting down the pump. We always advise the crews that we are switching just in case we lose prime for some reason.We is when switching from tank to portatank (or if the portatank runs dry

Stay Safe
IACOJ [/B]

I don't know why one would remove the piston intake when hooking to hydrant unless to reduce friction loss.

[npfd801]

The out-of-the-box stuff is great. We're spoiled here, enough money to not really "need" anything, really good water supply system, decent apparatus and two new ones coming. We don't run tankers, as our rural area is so small right now we'd be wasting our money to have a tanker with 4,000 gallons sitting in the engines and all kinds of big water close enough to justify not owning tankers.

The true rural water supply guys are artists to me, and while I can draft out of a porta-pond as well as anyone else on the department, I'm always in awe of the departments that can move large volumes of water on wheels, at a nice smooth and controlled rate, well.

[ChiefDog]

I read back through the posts and found them interesting.

And you referenced my earlier one....

For one, I looked at your site, looks like a nice 1985! If you are supplying 5" LDH at 120psi (I did a google search on friction loss chart) they said approx 6.5psi per 100feet. 120-20 residual leaves 100 to eat up in loss. 100 / 6.5 is approx 15 lengths...1500ft, what you said you had. Quick and dirty you can supply your monitor.

Using the KISS principal, get 1/4 turn valve for your drivers side intake for drafting and put the piston intake relief on the opposite side for incoming LDH. Buy a 2.5" to 5"Storz adaptor for your discharge and call it good. You can argue 'til your blue in the face but it comes down to money. This solution will be better than multipe 2.5" lines due to friction loss so you get the most bang for the buck spent. No moving of adaptors/valves and making set up complicated.

Big water is good but for the number of times used, is there much difference between 900 gpm and 1000gpm when money is tight? You will be calling mutual aid companies in for more firepower anyway.

Just a thought..... I like the outside of the box thinking!