1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rural Iowa
    Posts
    3,106

    Default Pump suction intakes

    No doubt ignorant but need advice/discussion.

    Our rural fire district has no hydrants. All water flowing into a pumper in this area since the dawn of time has been at a draft from a portatank. Our "New" truck has 5" suction intake each side 1000gpm Hale. We use a Piston Intake Relief Valve and 10' of light weight clear PVC draft hose and low depth strainer on the drivers side.

    I'm completing a project where we will have a 350000gal fire pond/pump/hydrant so we can fill tanker or lay LDH to fire in town. Issue is how we hook LDH to the pumper. Assumption is hydrant/pump output of 1500gpm @ 120psi. 1500' of 5" LDH with 20psi residual at LDH output.

    Pumper has 5" suction and also 2.5" swivel suction each side. Common I believe. Where/when are the 2.5" used? We are going to purchase (fire grant $) 5" Storz adapter to install on the pumper (the LDH supply). Not sure we want to perm. install the adapter on the 5" as most fires will be rural (portatank). So what are the limitations of the 2.5" suction? Can 2.5" suction handle 1000+gpm flow?
    Last edited by neiowa; 04-26-2005 at 01:19 AM.

  2. #2
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Berks County, PA
    Posts
    629

    Default

    First off...no, a 2.5" auxiliary intake, if it even supports drafting at all, will not support 1,000 gpm. You will need to use one of the the 5" intakes, preferably right into the pump eye.

    As for the uses for 2.5" auxiliary intakes, the answer is "not many." We have a 2,000 gpm engine on which we spec'ed one 6" intake, a dual 6" pants-leg style intake on an 8" pipe, a front 5" intake/discharge, and one auxiliary 2.5" intake on the pump panel. The 2.5" basically gets used to fill the tank from a hydrant, or for a quick 3" line from a tanker to hold over while LDH is being established. That's really all those little intakes are good for, as far as I'm concerned.

    I'm also a little curious as to how you plan to flow 1,500 gpm with a rig rated at 1,000 gpm. I've seen rigs where the only difference between a 1,000 rating and a 1,250 rating some simple re-piping (one of our tanker-pumpers was one), but 1,500 might be a stretch. Was that a typo??

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,694

    Default

    Get a wye and use both 2.5" intakes. Have the 5" come from the tank/pump/hydrant and then at the truck, split into 2 2.5" lines for the short distance into the intakes on each side.

    Although, if the 5" is coming that far, using the adapter to put the 5" straight into the 5" intake would be easier.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Berks County, PA
    Posts
    629

    Default

    Originally posted by Bones42
    Get a wye and use both 2.5" intakes. Have the 5" come from the tank/pump/hydrant and then at the truck, split into 2 2.5" lines for the short distance into the intakes on each side.

    Although, if the 5" is coming that far, using the adapter to put the 5" straight into the 5" intake would be easier.
    Everything you said works on the receiving end of the supply, but I think he was talking about the other end of the operation...he wants to draft 1,000 gpm through a 2.5" intake. That's not going to work. In fact, many 2.5" auxiliary intakes really aren't even setup for drafting at all.

  5. #5
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,694

    Default

    Oh, I assumed he was using the pond/pump/hydrant as the supply for the engine and that he would not be needing to draft.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  6. #6
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Swanton Fire Dept. Swanton, Vermont
    Posts
    479

    Default

    Issue is how we hook LDH to the pumper. Assumption is hydrant/pump output of 1500gpm @ 120psi. 1500' of 5" LDH with 20psi residual at LDH output
    If I am understanding you correctly, the system you put in will be a pressurized system and you are wondering how to get the 5" LDH into the truck.

    We draft off the pump operators panel and have a gate on the large intake. This allows you to stop using the port-a-tank and go to the booster tank on the truck. Seems you have that setup too.

    Our LDH intake and discharge is on the opposite side of the truck for safety. We go into a piston intake relief on that side with the 5" storz connection from the LDH.

    DO NOT put 5"LDH into the truck without a relief valve. (Depending on the age of the truck it has one or not.) Do the math, 8.33 X 1000gpm = 8333 lbs of water heading towards the truck. Stop it quick and you got issues!

    Our 2.5" auxilary suctions are used to fill the booster tank and pump between trucks providing we don't need huge flows.

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    355

    Default

    Try drafting thru the 5" and 2.5" at the same time. I think you'll be pleased with the result.

  8. #8
    MembersZone Subscriber
    arhaney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Wren, MS Until the forum gremlins pay a visit!
    Posts
    1,448

    Default

    Are you perhaps talking about how to supply the 5" LDH with your pumper and which outlets to use?
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
    IACOJ
    Southern Division

    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
    FireFighter/Pilot James Archer
    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    SpartanGuy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    489

    Default

    If you're concerned about installing the storz adapters onto the 5" steamer connections on your pump panels, you can always put a storz adatper on your hard suction hoses. We do it, actually. I think there might be some minor flow loss, but it does decrease set up time dramatically, and it allows you to use the 5" intake for LDH or drafting without any time consuming adapter removal/additions on the scene...
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

    Safety is no accident.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber
    arhaney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Wren, MS Until the forum gremlins pay a visit!
    Posts
    1,448

    Default

    Originally posted by SpartanGuy
    If you're concerned about installing the storz adapters onto the 5" steamer connections on your pump panels, you can always put a storz adatper on your hard suction hoses. We do it, actually. I think there might be some minor flow loss, but it does decrease set up time dramatically, and it allows you to use the 5" intake for LDH or drafting without any time consuming adapter removal/additions on the scene...
    I have to mirror that thought. Last year we converted all of our hard suction to storz adapters and installed a Ball Intake valve. best money we've ever spent! Just make sure and replace the storz pressure gaskets to suction gaskets. The manufacturer will furnish these for free on request.
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
    IACOJ
    Southern Division

    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
    FireFighter/Pilot James Archer
    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    630

    Default

    I agree with SpartanGuy. We have used Storz adapters on our LDH, Hard suction, and intake valves for years.

    Make sure the Gaskets on the Storz are vacuum gaskets and not pressure gaskets. You can't maintain a suction with pressure gaskets.

    I would not consider the 2.5" intakes for large flows. They not designed for that purpose.

    Stay Safe
    IACOJ

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rural Iowa
    Posts
    3,106

    Default

    To clarify.

    Electric pump/hydrant located at the pond to flow 1500gpm @120psi. Thru 5" LDH max of 1500ft to fire scene (no relay pumper at the hydrant is planned). Pumper/engine (1000gpm) is at the fire scene (pump test 2 weeks ago was 1240gpm @ 150psi).

    The other end of the LDH "problem" operation of the new Akron monitor (5" Storz inlet on the ground mount base) we just purchased with with 04 fire grant $. Monitor is 1000gpm in ground mount mode. Pumper only has 2.5" outlets so thinking of 2.5F to 5" S adapter. Likely max "attack" line to the monitor would be 250' so friction loss neglible. Adding an additional large dia output to the pump would be at least somewhat expensive. Need to call Hale I guess as I'm not sure what max flow from a 2.5" would/could be in it was the only discharge in use.

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rural Iowa
    Posts
    3,106

    Default

    Originally posted by ChiefDog

    Our LDH intake and discharge is on the opposite side of the truck for safety. We go into a piston intake relief on that side with the 5" storz connection from the LDH.

    DO NOT put 5"LDH into the truck without a relief valve. (Depending on the age of the truck it has one or not.) Do the math, 8.33 X 1000gpm = 8333 lbs of water heading towards the truck. Stop it quick and you got issues!
    Our pumper is an 1985 L9000 (very nice truck we purchased in 03), has relief.

    Interesting point on use of piston intake relief. At the pump operator class I took some time ago, the instruction was to remove the piston intake from the 5" intake when hooking to a hydrant (not an operation we expected to undertake so I many not have been paying full attention and may have that wrong). In our case we are actually hooked on the end of 300' to 1500' of LDH, not directly to hydrant.

    LDH safety concerns with using the intake at the pumper operators station (left side)??? My thought was did not want to remove the piston intake from the left side intake, install Storz adapter and then attach the LDH. Maybe the answer is to just leave the Storz adapter on the pumpers right side 5" intake.

    But do we need a piston intake on the LDH intake? If we do then simple answer is to leave storz adapter installed on the piston intake and install a storz adapter on the hard suction. Opinions?

    www.stanleyiowa.com

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber
    arhaney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Wren, MS Until the forum gremlins pay a visit!
    Posts
    1,448

    Default

    Seems like about 500-600 gpm is all you can get from a single 2.5" outlet.
    Chief
    Wren Volunteer Fire Department
    IACOJ
    Southern Division

    http://www.wrenfiredepartment.4t.com/

    In Memory of:
    FireFighter/Pilot James Archer
    1946-2005
    "Rest in peace James, you now have the ultimate set of wings on you."

    Thanks, LeuitEFDems

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber
    npfd801's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Somewhere in Illinois
    Posts
    2,221

    Default

    Someone more knowledgable than myself will chime in here, but I suspect the friction loss of the small amount of 2.5 or 3 inch piping going to that discharge would be no more than what you would lose going through two short sections of 3" into a siamese to feed that 5".

    I guess you could lay twin 3" supplies to the montior and feed it off a siamese, but that defeats the purpose of having a monitor capable of accepting the LDH to begin with.

    Might be worth your while to acquire a pitot gauge and buy a 2.5" to 5" Storz adapter to see what kind of flow you'll get out of that setup. Easily the lowest cost solution, and you may come close enough to 1000gpm to call it good. Deck guns flow big water and they're usually only piped with 3" from the pump.

    I've checked out the stuff you've done on your site (I'm pretty confident its you, matching Ford engine and tanker?), and I've got to commend the out of the box thinking. The static water supply in the bladders is impressive, as well as the rest of the military sourced equipment.

  16. #16
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rural Iowa
    Posts
    3,106

    Default

    Originally posted by npfd801


    I've checked out the stuff you've done on your site (I'm pretty confident its you, matching Ford engine and tanker?), and I've got to commend the out of the box thinking. The static water supply in the bladders is impressive, as well as the rest of the military sourced equipment.
    Thats me, Mr outside of the box. I've scared off our state forester with my project to convert a M911 tank (big gun/tracks) transporter into a super jumbo water tanker.

    Our water supply for the last 100 years has been 7mi each way to nearest hydrant. Then up to 7mi more to end of fire district. A problem. The blivets/bladders are free for the hauling thru your state forester. Many available. I got 12ea 20000gal blivets(also available in 3000,5000, 50000,& 230000gal). Brand new in the crate. Also got 2x 500gpm gas engine pumps from the Army for tanker truck load from the blivets. The water in the blivets gets a bit thick around the outside edges in Jan but still flow out the bottom. But 2 winters "testing" they are not damaged by freezing. I've decided the trick in Iowa is to flip them upside down so the 4" port in down and the 1.5" (drain) is on top. We plan to move the blivets into the rural area for "dry hydrants" when our town fire reservoir is completed this spring.

  17. #17
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    630

    Default

    Is the relief valve an "Intake" relief valve? I suspect that that vintage engine has a relief valve on the discharge side of the pump but not the intake.

    You must have a relief valve on the intake side when working with LDH. The simplest method is to use Storz on the LDH, Hard Suction and intake valve.

    I have never heard of removing the piston intake when hooking to a hydrant. We use the piston intake to switch from tank to hydrant without shutting down the pump. We always advise the crews that we are switching just in case we lose prime for some reason.

    Stay Safe
    IACOJ

  18. #18
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rural Iowa
    Posts
    3,106

    Default

    Originally posted by Rayr49
    Is the relief valve an "Intake" relief valve? I suspect that that vintage engine has a relief valve on the discharge side of the pump but not the intake.Correct discharge relief, I thng that was his question

    You must have a relief valve on the intake side when working with LDH. The simplest method is to use Storz on the LDH, Hard Suction and intake valve.

    I have never heard of removing the piston intake when hooking to a hydrant. We use the piston intake to switch from tank to hydrant without shutting down the pump. We always advise the crews that we are switching just in case we lose prime for some reason.We is when switching from tank to portatank (or if the portatank runs dry

    Stay Safe
    IACOJ [/B]
    I don't know why one would remove the piston intake when hooking to hydrant unless to reduce friction loss.

  19. #19
    MembersZone Subscriber
    npfd801's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Somewhere in Illinois
    Posts
    2,221

    Default

    The out-of-the-box stuff is great. We're spoiled here, enough money to not really "need" anything, really good water supply system, decent apparatus and two new ones coming. We don't run tankers, as our rural area is so small right now we'd be wasting our money to have a tanker with 4,000 gallons sitting in the engines and all kinds of big water close enough to justify not owning tankers.

    The true rural water supply guys are artists to me, and while I can draft out of a porta-pond as well as anyone else on the department, I'm always in awe of the departments that can move large volumes of water on wheels, at a nice smooth and controlled rate, well.

  20. #20
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Swanton Fire Dept. Swanton, Vermont
    Posts
    479

    Default

    I read back through the posts and found them interesting.

    And you referenced my earlier one....

    For one, I looked at your site, looks like a nice 1985! If you are supplying 5" LDH at 120psi (I did a google search on friction loss chart) they said approx 6.5psi per 100feet. 120-20 residual leaves 100 to eat up in loss. 100 / 6.5 is approx 15 lengths...1500ft, what you said you had. Quick and dirty you can supply your monitor.

    Using the KISS principal, get 1/4 turn valve for your drivers side intake for drafting and put the piston intake relief on the opposite side for incoming LDH. Buy a 2.5" to 5"Storz adaptor for your discharge and call it good. You can argue 'til your blue in the face but it comes down to money. This solution will be better than multipe 2.5" lines due to friction loss so you get the most bang for the buck spent. No moving of adaptors/valves and making set up complicated.

    Big water is good but for the number of times used, is there much difference between 900 gpm and 1000gpm when money is tight? You will be calling mutual aid companies in for more firepower anyway.

    Just a thought..... I like the outside of the box thinking!

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    Dave1983's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Gator Country
    Posts
    4,157

    Default

    The other end of the LDH "problem" operation of the new Akron monitor (5" Storz inlet on the ground mount base) we just purchased with with 04 fire grant $. Monitor is 1000gpm in ground mount mode. Pumper only has 2.5" outlets so thinking of 2.5F to 5" S adapter. Likely max "attack" line to the monitor would be 250' so friction loss neglible
    Not a problem. We have been doing it that way for years, we have a 2.5" to 5" stotrz set up on our oldest pumper. All our newer pumpers and our quint have a 3" discharge with a 5" storz adaptor for this purpose
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    NORTHEAST TUNDRA
    Posts
    54

    Default Bladders

    Neiowa,

    Can you tell me more about the military bladder tanks? We traded mail a while ago at FYRTRUCKGUY@aol.com. I would greatly appreciate it if I could find out more about these.

    Thanks....Stay safe and have fun!

    GUY

  23. #23
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Berks County, PA
    Posts
    629

    Default

    Originally posted by neiowa
    To clarify.

    Electric pump/hydrant located at the pond to flow 1500gpm @120psi. Thru 5" LDH max of 1500ft to fire scene (no relay pumper at the hydrant is planned). Pumper/engine (1000gpm) is at the fire scene (pump test 2 weeks ago was 1240gpm @ 150psi).

    Wow. I totally didn't get that at all.

    Carry on.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register