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  1. #1
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    Default Scary LPG Incident-Terrorism?

    Propane-loaded car investigated
    Fort Worth Star Telegram (May 2, 2005)

    Arson investigators pored over a car loaded with open, spewing propane bottles at a south Fort Worth mobile-home park Sunday.

    Police and firefighters went to the Quail Run mobile-home park in the 8000 block of Day Mist Drive about 4:30 a.m. to see about an unattended car emitting a propane odor, a police report says.


    The firefighters found a "large propane bottle" open and releasing gas on the back floorboards of a brown, four-door 1989 Cadillac Seville, the report says. They closed the bottle and removed it from the car, then tried to open the trunk, the report says.

    They got it slightly open and saw three more open bottles emitting gas, the report says.

    A Fire Department arson investigator opened the trunk and found tools along with the bottles. He checked whether the bottles or anything else had been rigged to explode, the report says. A few nearby mobile homes were evacuated.

    Although nothing like a detonator was found, a spark or other ignition source might have touched off the gas, causing an explosion and fire, the report says.

    "This makes this a fire hazard situation, with [someone] intentionally opening the bottles," the report reads.

    Lt. Kent Worley, Fire Department spokesman, said a motive was unclear. The car's owner was in jail at the time, Worley said.

    "There's no way to speculate on what they were trying to do," Worley said.

    Phillip Ramirez, 43, who lives near where the car was parked, said he heard the banging of the firefighters trying to get into the trunk and stepped outside.

    "The officer looked at me and said, 'I wouldn't stand around here, this thing's ready to blow,' " Ramirez said. He went back inside.

    Had the gas exploded, Ramirez said, his home could have been damaged.

    Park resident James Rollins, 30, said he looked out to see what was happening when he heard the firefighters trying to open the trunk. The bottles appeared to be about 3 feet long, he said. Rollins said he did not know why the car was in the park.

    Rollins and Ramirez said they had not seen the car before.

    The yellow mobile home near which the car was parked has been empty for several months and is for sale, Rollins said.

    The car was impounded by police to be studied as evidence.

    For more news or to subscribe, please visit http://www.dfw.com



    Copyright ?2004 Fort Worth Star Telegram. All Rights Reserved.


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    The firefighters found a "large propane bottle" open and releasing gas on the back floorboards of a brown, four-door 1989 Cadillac Seville, the report says. They closed the bottle and removed it from the car, then tried to open the trunk, the report says.
    A Fire Department arson investigator opened the trunk and found tools along with the bottles. He checked whether the bottles or anything else had been rigged to explode, the report says. A few nearby mobile homes were evacuated.
    At what point would you have called the bomb squad?
    George ,Would you have opened the trunk?

  3. #3
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    Default

    Originally posted by Dashman




    At what point would you have called the bomb squad?
    George ,Would you have opened the trunk?
    1. As soon as I got the telephone call about the job.
    2. No

  4. #4
    Forum Member RLFD14's Avatar
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    Another example of how the nickname "canary" applies.

    A mobile home park is a relatively low-value target for terrorists, so I doubt this was the work of "professionals", but this very fact (that there are unprofessionals and they can/will attack more or less anywhere) is indeed scary.

    Why open/shut off anything? Evacuate and let them bleed off!
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    MembersZone Subscriber E229Lt's Avatar
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    George, what on earth would make you think this was Terrorism?

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    Default Why Terrorism?

    Well, lets start with the location and the use of the vehicle. If the car (prefered mode of transporting a device) had exploded there would have been a significant loss of life and property. This would have caused a disruption in normal everyday activities and struck fear in everyone over strange cars in neighborhoods. Granted the probability of this being a terroristic cell's attempt to strike at US citizens it by definition, could be perceived as a terroristic attempt.

    Just my opinion.....

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    Default no way

    Craig that article says nothing about large amounts of life being lost. It was outside a few mobile homes is what I gather.

    I would hardly call a strike on Hollins Mobile home park a "terrorist" event more like someone just being stupid.
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    Originally posted by E229Lt
    George, what on earth would make you think this was Terrorism?
    While it may not have been the ideal location for a terorist attack, it may have been a test run or a directed attack. This certainly is not an arson attempt in the classic sense (like shooting yourself in the head with a bazooka). It also is consistent with the vehicle being an explosive device.

    I am certain that UBL does not have a trailer park circled on his Rand McNally, it is not wise to think of all terrorism as Muslim-based. There are tons of domestic terrorist groups who function out of rural, poor locations.

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    MembersZone Subscriber mcaldwell's Avatar
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    Default

    Originally posted by Dashman

    At what point would you have called the bomb squad?
    George, Would you have opened the trunk?
    I guess this is dependant on the location and situation, but this type of odour call is somewhat common around here, and it would not generate a bomb squad request unless there was other suspicious circumstances or evidence. Most often it is a similar thing; a leaky LPG bottle/BBQ, or a leaky LNG tank on a car or truck.

    Our standard gas odour call protocol would have applied.

    1. Set up a perimeter appropriate to the threat.
    2. Examine the source from a distance (i.e. with binoculars if necessary), and in this case consider notifying the gas company.
    3. Determine the gas envelope with your (or your Gas companies) Combustible Gas Meter.
    4. If the concentrations are determined to be less than 50% LEL in proximity to the cylinder, we would approach and likely secure the cylinder. If they are higher, we would wait for the cylinder to empty before approaching. The trunk would have to wait until the CGI indications were completely absent of gas.

    Since this was in a relatively closed space, the Propane would definitely pool in the floorboards, so we would likely have to wait out all but the slowest of leaks.

    LNG might be different though. If the windows were all open and a little wind blowing, the LNG would probably dissipate pretty quick.
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    Default Re: no way

    Originally posted by FFEMT284
    Craig that article says nothing about large amounts of life being lost. It was outside a few mobile homes is what I gather.

    I would hardly call a strike on Hollins Mobile home park a "terrorist" event more like someone just being stupid.
    I have yet to see only a "few" mobile homes in a trailer park. Also if you noticed the time of day it was at 4:30am. Which would have given you the greatest possibility of high casualty count. This very well could have been nothing more than a disgruntled lover trying to get even with someone, as well as your theory of "someone being stupid". However by definition, it is a terroristic attempt. This very well could have happened here and resulted in a number of civilian casualties and fire & ems casualties. People know that one of the first things firefighters do is "open it up and se what we got" so it could have gone off in the face of the responders. I also feel this could have been a "Stupid Person" trying to scare someone but wait, isn't that the goal of terrorists? TO TERRORIZE SOMEONE?

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    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Well, since its not normal to find an open, leaking LPG bottle in a car, we would secure the area and call PD. Its up to them to call for a bomb squad. We would call haz-mat for sure.
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    Disillusioned Subscriber Steamer's Avatar
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    Out of curiosity, why was the owner of the vehicle in jail?

    We had a similar incident where a person was incarcerated on a domestic violence complaint, and his brother set the prisoner's car on fire near his estranged wife's house. It turns out that the wife was going to get "custody" of the car in the divorce settlement, and he figured she could have it with his blessing...if it was a smoking shell. I suppose several tanks of propane igniting would have made a much more emphatic statement.
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    Default Re: Re: no way

    Originally posted by craigsheets

    I have yet to see only a "few" mobile homes in a trailer park. Also if you noticed the time of day it was at 4:30am. Which would have given you the greatest possibility of high casualty count.
    You certainly have that right. Packed in check to jowl is more typically the case.

    This very well could have been nothing more than a disgruntled lover trying to get even with someone, as well as your theory of "someone being stupid". However by definition, it is a terroristic attempt.
    Most likely the case. That's pretty broad definition of terrorism. Not many years ago would have just been chalked up to criminal activity/felony. Ok City or 9/11 does not make bonehead activity that stinks/explodes/contaminates an attack on the national interests of the US.

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    Lightbulb Let's remember

    Last I knew, the bombing in Oklahoma City was not caused by some foreign agents. This stuff can and does happen with people in this country and who are citizens.

    I would have evacuated the area and wait for the LPG to disapate.

    This is a new world folks. Terror can come from anywhere and in any form.

    Stay safe,

    Pete
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    i would highly unlikely this was anything terrorist related.

    Usually a terrorist act or attempt is done with political or religious motives behind it.

    i just donít see how leaving a few propane bottles on in a trailer park is terrorism ....... there is nothing of substantial for the terrorist to gain besides killing maybe a few people and destroying a few trailers, and honestly yeah that would suck but has no value to them.

    Now it sounds to me like some disgruntle moron who maybe wanted to hurt some ex friend or something or maybe even an insurance thing
    Last edited by BFDNJFF; 05-05-2005 at 09:27 AM.

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    Answer these questions (do some research if you have to):

    1. Has the manufacture of a device designed to be used by a terrorist organization ever gone off unexpectedly?

    2. Do terrorists test their devices before they actually deploy them?

    3. Do terrorists ever stage an event to monitor law enforcement response?

    4. What are the properties of LPG and why is it so dangerous?

    5. Has LPG ever been used to commit a criminal act?

    Do your homework and get back to me.

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    Do me one other favor...spell check your response so someone may be able to understand it without having it decoded.

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    Yes to all the above. I remember reading about a few premature explosions in the West Bank. The casing of most targets takes place several months prior to the actual attack itself. If you read the 911 Commission report it talks about all of these questions at some point.
    If I was going to think like a terrorist this would be something that I would do simply because it is terror. The possibility of an attack in small town America is very real. Ask Tappahannock, Virginia. There had been "chatter" heard in the middle east about this small town. Why? To do just what terrorism is. Make you uneasy. Create terror.

    Matt

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    9/11 was a horrible chapter in US history. But can you imagine the devestating impact if there were coordinated attacks in 10 'Smalltown USA" municipalities from coast-to-coast? The total economic impact would be enormous. The psychological impact would be crippling.

    But don't worry; BFD the terorrism expert daughts that it will happen. Sleep tight!

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    Could have been a bad bad situation there....... Not that it wasn't bad enough.....
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