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Thread: E85 fuel fires

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    Default E85 fuel fires

    At what point does the ethanol based fuel need 6% foam to put it out versus the 3% foam for regular petro based fuels. Anybody have any experiance with this issue? Any web links would b helpful also.
    thanks

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    I have no idea. But I did a little research on google (very little really) and found this:

    http://www.e85fuel.com/pdf/ethanol_guidebook.pdf

    There seems to be a pretty extensive contact list at the end of the handbook. Hope this helps.
    Last edited by sbfdco1; 05-04-2005 at 03:52 PM.
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    Default E85

    I have used fireade foam at 3% from a PW and gave excellent knockdown and blanket. I know a wash-tube with a gallon of E85 a massive spill or fire but i am comfortable with the products performance and blanket.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jlm993 View Post
    At what point does the ethanol based fuel need 6% foam to put it out versus the 3% foam for regular petro based fuels.
    Remember when we used to call gasoline/ethanol blends "gasohol"? We don't use the name any more but the product never went away.

    Given that nearly half the unleaded gasoline in the US has had a significant ethanol content for at least a decade (aka E10), we use 6% AFFF* for all "gasoline" type fires. It's not as if we generally know on arrival which brand or grade of gasoline we're dealing with and how much ethanol was in the blend for that particular batch...

    IMHO, all modern "gasoline type" motor fuels should be treated as polar solvents unless you know for a fact that they are 100% dinosaur based.

    YMMV

    *addenda: I wrote just AFFF originally meaning AFFF/ATC. We haven't even bought non-ATC foam in many years so I tend not to even think about it unless I'm dealing with a mutual aid foam compatibility question. My bad for not being specific.
    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 06-04-2007 at 12:58 PM. Reason: addenda
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

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    E85 fuel is regarded as an alcohol type fuel. Your going to need an AR-AFFF foam for it. AFFF WILL put it out BUT the foam blanket will be eaten up very very quickly. IF you have a 3x6, bump it to 6x right off the bat. There was a major E85 fuel spill near Childress Texas a while back and I cant find it but there was a very good article on the use of foam for it.

    Either use an AR or use one of the AFFF that is rated for both. Otherwise, your just going to make the matter worse. If you have any questions, contact the foam manufacturer's and get their opinion. THey will know a LOT more than anyone regarding the working and requirements for fuel and foam. They have to follow strict UL standards and such.

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    And on a second note, AFFF foam is suitable for use on the 90% gasoline 10% Ethanol fires but note that I said suitable. It will work but couple of things to keep in mind. The foam blanket will not last as long as it would on plain gasoline so you need more foam resulting in a bigger mess to F with

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    Default E85 fuel testing

    I have tested foam with small quantities of E85 ( a gallon to 5 gallons) with a couple of products. One worked extremely well while the other AFFF was a little disappointing.

    also, I had a FireAde Foam salesman demo the product the same way I had been testing it with E85. The product performed extremely well ( good blanket) and performed exactly they way it had been described and what I experienced. Good Product.

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    I was just doing some research on this. I will leave out my personal experience because I'm not done testing. From Industrial Fire World:

    The most exciting thing on foam is that the Ethanol Emergency Response Coalition, which is made up of a number of national fire organizations and industrial organizations, finalized a report related to ethanol. It tells you the types of foams that work on an ethanol-blended fuel, whether it’s 10% or 85%, and the ones that don’t. This was not testing that showed “well, it almost put it out and it almost didn’t put it out.” These fires either went out or the foam didn’t even touch the fire.

    The foam testing was conducted under very scientific conditions at the Ansul fire research center in Marinette, WI. It was done to the UL162 standard, which is the standard for foams that flammable liquids are measured against. If you are going to have a fire of any depth - two inches or more, a tank truck fire, a spill fire, a tank fire, or a loading rack fire with a fixed system, the only foam to do 100% of the job consistently is an AFFF alcohol-resistant or an AR-FFFP fluoroprotein (FP) foam as per UL162. These are the only two kinds of foams that will work.

    As a result, we’ve got foams out there such as emulsifiers that won’t even touch it. We have Class A foam – won’t touch it. We have straight AFFF – it won’t touch it. Fluoroprotein foams won’t touch it.


    More info on the tests here:

    http://www.fireworld.com/ifw_articles/e95_tests.php

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    Default E85 Fuel

    What I used and tested went out! Great foam blanket and extinguishment.


    I also heard about the Ansul testing. I also heard they tested a limited number of foam, foaming agents, wetting agents and so on. So, Their conclusions were based and only the products used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by massfire View Post
    What I used and tested went out! Great foam blanket and extinguishment.


    I also heard about the Ansul testing. I also heard they tested a limited number of foam, foaming agents, wetting agents and so on. So, Their conclusions were based and only the products used.
    OH, OH, OH, let me guess was it.................................FIREADE?
    Go peddle your wares elsewhere.

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    Default E85

    boo woo.

    change is hard thing when you you wear blinders.

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    Yeah, maybe you should try changing your sales pitch. Cause it ain't working.

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    Default E85

    Aint no sales pitch brother. stick with what you got and keep wondering.

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    Now I know what foam my department will not, under any circumstances, purchase. Just as I know what boots we will not purchase.

    I am not going to trust any company that behaves in such a fashion.

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    Default E85

    You can continue to think and believe whatever you want. I know it must be hard for you'll to believe that other departments use and think differently than you.

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    Not a problem what I got works and the only thing I'm wondering about is how long it's going to take before you get a clue.

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    Default E85

    Like I said, " my department is quite happy with FireAde." Sorry you have a problem with that. It seems if I am not using F500 or what it is that you seem to be using you have a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by massfire View Post
    Aint no sales pitch brother. stick with what you got and keep wondering.
    Kind of hard to believe when almost all 40 of your posts are about your product.

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    Default E85

    about a product the department uses.

    Its funny to listen to whining about products or question, whether today or yester year, and all the hostility tha is displayed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by massfire View Post
    You can continue to think and believe whatever you want. I know it must be hard for you'll to believe that other departments use and think differently than you.
    Not at all. What is hard for me to believe is that you are on a department at all. Most firefighters, in my experience, have opinions about things other than foam. You sure some across as a salesman. That's when you're not busy coming across as an abrasive jerk.

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    Red face

    Maybe one of these days massfire will grow up and learn to talk about fire related issues instead of running his product in the ground.

    T.J.

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    Does Fireade come in Lemon-Lime? Because that would be delicious.

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    Your actions in regards to the fireache problems, make me realize I can't believe we have operated on fire scenes and extinguish fires without the use of your product over these years.

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    Default Polar Solvents

    To get back to the main topic..........

    On blended fuels containing polar solvents (alcohols), it will require an Alcohol Resistant (AR) concentrate.

    You cannot use a straight AFFF such as 1%, 3% or 6% economically. The foam blanket will be destroyed immediately as the alcohols absorbe the water in the solution.

    Use a AR foam such as 3/6% or better yet, 1/3%, that has heavey UL listings on blended fuels. UL online lets you check them for free.

    Fire Aide and F-500 are wetting agents only, per UL tests. That means they are "slightly" better than water alone for class A use. They will only extinguish the fire after diluting the alcohol below a 10% strength. If that's what you want, use plain water, its much cheaper.

    Plus, a good AR will cost you less than the wetting agents mentioned.

    Here in Houston, most users use National Foam Universal Gold, 1/3%, but theirs a lot of 3/6% still in use.

    JT

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    Default E85

    Where I am located. AR Foam is about more expensive. Also, in cold weather does any have difficulty getting AR foam to pull thru an eductor?





    Quote Originally Posted by jtstoney View Post
    To get back to the main topic..........

    On blended fuels containing polar solvents (alcohols), it will require an Alcohol Resistant (AR) concentrate.

    You cannot use a straight AFFF such as 1%, 3% or 6% economically. The foam blanket will be destroyed immediately as the alcohols absorbe the water in the solution.

    Use a AR foam such as 3/6% or better yet, 1/3%, that has heavey UL listings on blended fuels. UL online lets you check them for free.

    Fire Aide and F-500 are wetting agents only, per UL tests. That means they are "slightly" better than water alone for class A use. They will only extinguish the fire after diluting the alcohol below a 10% strength. If that's what you want, use plain water, its much cheaper.

    Plus, a good AR will cost you less than the wetting agents mentioned.

    Here in Houston, most users use National Foam Universal Gold, 1/3%, but theirs a lot of 3/6% still in use.

    JT

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