1. #1
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    Default Training Fire Injury

    we had a live burn training fire on thursday of last week. one of our new firefighters that was in marine crash rescue and has been on our station about 6 months now was allowed to enter and fight fire on the training burn even though he had little air pack knowledge or training. Some how inside his mask lost seal and he passed out due to smoke inhalation. He was brought out and EMS was dispatched. 16+ minutes later they arrived. In the safety meeting meny of the members ask for a bus to be on standby at the scene just in case. He was transported to the hospital and treated for 1st degree smoke inhalation and release later that night. The instructor is a very good friend of mine and I would follow him to hell and he could get us back. I trust him more then anyone else on our station. Now people of the station are talking and want something done becuase they say the the instructor broke policy. There are no written policy of training burns in our SOG's. It just seems like some of the members want his head on a platter. Anyone got any advice to what should be done. Or has anyone been in this situation before.
    Kyle Beard
    Engine 221 "East Side Express"
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    absolutely that instructure and your chief should have some kind of punishment. I will also go ahead and say just because you dont have SOG's you do have 1403.

    And as far as the ambulance I thought that was a standard/common sense thing to have them on standby and the sight the burn was taking place at?????????

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    We have to have an dedicated ambulance on scene for live burn training. Full set of vitals before you go in and each time your team breaks. If the ambulance takes someone in, everything stops until another ambulance arrives. No exceptions.
    Also, we have a probationary period for any new member regardless of prior experience. Not all equipment is the same and a 20 year ff who has used only MSA can have trouble adjusting to Scott, and vice versa. Probationary ff's have someone with them at all times in live burn training. Plus, you must go through fit testing before being allowed to put on a pack.
    I'm sorry, but I think someone dropped the ball here and a ff got hurt. Safety first!!
    PAJ

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    I believe NFPA does call for an EMS unit to stand by on training burns. Among training sites in my part of the state, I've seen burns done (in burn buildings) with EMS units on site and with only medics with equipment on site (usually where an EMS station is very close by). In any case, it's been standard practice to at least have fully-equipped medics on hand at any live burn I've attended anytime in recent years.

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    First - how does he get smoke inhalation due to a lost seal if the pack was Positive Pressure (as all packs are required to be now and have for some time)

    Second as stated before SOG or not there is a clear "industry standard"

    NFPA 1403 - 2002 Edition.
    Chapter 4 - Acquired Structures
    4.4.11 Emergency Medical Services shall be available on site to handle injuries

    Chapter 5 - Gas Fired Training Center Buildings
    5.4.11 Emergency Medical Services shall be available on site to handle injuries

    Chapter 6 - Non-Gas Fired Training Center Buildings
    6.4.11 Emergency Medical Services shall be available on site to handle injuries

    Chapter 7 - Exterior Props
    7.4.10 Emergency Medical Services shall be available on site to handle injuries

    Chapter 8 - Exterior Class B Fires
    8.4.10 Emergency Medical Services shall be available on site to handle injuries

    My sincerest wishes that the FF involved recovers fully & that the instructor(s) involved wise up before someone else gets hurt.
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
    Stephen
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    As everyone else has said, NFPA 1403 provides the guideline we should all follow when conducting practice burns.

    Even without guidelines, why in the world would you want to conduct a live burn without EMS support? It just seems like such a no-brainer to me.

    There are some other parts of this story that bring up some interesting questions.

    First, the training and experience question. You said the guy was ex-Marine crash/rescue but had little SCBA knowledge or training. How is that possible?

    Second, you said "some how inside his mask lost seal and he passed out due to smoke inhalation." Was he alone? N2DFire's point about positive pressure SCBA is a good one. If he lost his seal , there should be no smoke intrusion until he ran out of air. If he had a partner or better an instructor accompanying him they should have realized something was amiss when his low-air alarm sounded prematurely. Unless the house was huge they should have been able to evacuate before the situation got serious.

    Finally, this type incident happens far too often. Search these forums for "Lairdsville" for a worst-case scenario. To make it easy, here's a link to a series about the incident.

    It sure sounds like there are issues other than the lack of on-scene EMS that need to be addressed by the department.

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    Besides the basic lack of standards being followed at this drill, seems that we are missing something from the story.....
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    Besides the basic lack of standards being followed at this drill, seems that we are missing something from the story.....
    Bingo!

    I am also surprised that we haven't read the following:

    1. What is NFPA 1403?
    2. We are not an NFPA State!
    3. We can't afford to buy NFPA books.
    4. NFPA should give the books away for free.

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    Could dragonlayer be making up another story? Do I feel a trend from the kid?
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    Could dragonlayer be making up another story? Do I feel a trend from the kid?
    I don't know. It could've been an equipment failure that was beyond his comprehension. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for a day or so until he comes back with a different story.

    Or as an old crusty ED doc once said:

    "Shock him three times, then he's dead".

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    4. NFPA should give the books away for free.
    Didn't they used to give 1403 away as a free download?

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    I'll throw out the possibility that EMS didn't want to do the standby. I have seen situations where EMS and Fire barely spoke, didn't communicate on scenes and would not do standbys for each other. I know that NFPA requires an EMS unit on scene but what if they refuse to come (which I have seen) ... does that mean your department performs no live fire training/exercises ????

    One situation was so bad that when EMS responded to a working fire, if a civilian was not injured when they arrived they would head back to the station and the FD would have to call them back if someone was injured. The FD wasn't much better .. if they arrived at an MVA and there was no entrapement or flammables leaking, they would leave when EMS arrived and provide no assistance with the pts. that still may have been inside.

    I am throwing this out because it's a situation which does happen .... what do you do in that case ?

    Other than that, I see no problem with having an inexperienced firefighter wearing an SCBA in the burn, because after all, isn't that the purpose of training, as long as he was being supervised. If it was a malfunction, then a rookie or experienced firefighter may have had a problem.

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    Originally posted by EFD840


    Didn't they used to give 1403 away as a free download?
    I think that was a limited time thing. I just checked and it is not available as a free download on the web site.

    If you snooze, you lose!

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    this story is true. i don't know how he was able to get smoke inhalation with a postive pressure pack on. I was around at the back of the house at the time of the injury. he was inside with 3 other FF and 2 instrutors. As I came around the back of the house my caption had him pulling him out of the house. I came around and tried to assist in getting his gear off. When EMS arrived the trasported him to the hospital and his CO level in his lungs was .7 he was released the next day. That night at the hospital I asked him what happened inside and he said the only thing he remembered was tasteing smoke and then his mask filled with smoke. Thats all he remembers until he got in the back on the bus. The instrutor in question was asked by serveral members if the medic truck would be there. He said it was not needed since the house was only 800 square foot. I do not know what happened inside the house because I was not in there at the time. Brain the FF that got hurt has been released back to limted duty and should be back to active duty by the end of the week.
    Kyle Beard
    Engine 221 "East Side Express"
    FTM-PTM

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    Originally posted by dragonslayer22
    this story is true. i don't know how he was able to get smoke inhalation with a postive pressure pack on. I was around at the back of the house at the time of the injury. he was inside with 3 other FF and 2 instrutors. As I came around the back of the house my caption had him pulling him out of the house. I came around and tried to assist in getting his gear off. When EMS arrived the trasported him to the hospital and his CO level in his lungs was .7 he was released the next day. That night at the hospital I asked him what happened inside and he said the only thing he remembered was tasteing smoke and then his mask filled with smoke. Thats all he remembers until he got in the back on the bus. The instrutor in question was asked by serveral members if the medic truck would be there. He said it was not needed since the house was only 800 square foot. I do not know what happened inside the house because I was not in there at the time. Brain the FF that got hurt has been released back to limted duty and should be back to active duty by the end of the week.
    Did they check his SCBA for a malfunction? This does not sound like he "lost the seal".

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    Originally posted by dragonslayer22
    The instrutor in question was asked by serveral members if the medic truck would be there. He said it was not needed since the house was only 800 square foot.
    Was this the lead instructor or one of the instructors helping with the burn?

    And could you chief not request the medic unit for standby?

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    He might have lost the seal at the HUD.

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    What is a HUD?

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    Originally posted by Fitguy51
    What is a HUD?
    Heads Up Display? That is ONE VERY advanced department!!!!!
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    Heads Up Display? That is ONE VERY advanced department!!!!!
    Oh.

    I was going to say "What in the world does this thread have to do with birth control?"

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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    Oh.

    I was going to say "What in the world does this thread have to do with birth control?"
    That would be the IUD
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    That would be the IUD
    Oh.

    Never mind.

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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    Oh.

    Never mind.
    Well that department may have some REALLY cutting edge stuff!
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Originally posted by dragonslayer22
    He said it was not needed since the house was only 800 square foot.
    In this case size does not matter....


    OK, so you don't or can't get an ambulance to stand by, do you have EMT's or First Repsonders on the FD?

    There was no mention of anyone from the FD providing medical care prior to arrival of the ambulance. (Just curious)

    Has someone documented the incident, inspected the SCBA, etc, etc.?
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