View Poll Results: What would you do?

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  • Fly victim

    14 70.00%
  • Ground Transport

    0 0%
  • Other and post your opinion

    6 30.00%
  1. #1
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    Default No EMTs around...what would you do?

    What would you do?

    As a firefighter, basic C.P.R and first aid you should have, some may be a 1st responder....


    Motorcyclist crashes moto cross bike, landing chest & head first into a solid mound on dirt and rock, heavy internal bleeding, coughing up alot of blood, possible broken sternum,jaw and collar bone.

    What would you do after your assessment of his/her injuries?

    A)Fly the victim

    B)Ground transport

    C)Other and post your opinion

  2. #2
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    D) Call for EMS, request ALS as well. depending on location, put chopper on standby, possibly put chopper in the air. depending on where you are in relation to the trauma center would help determine if I would fly the patient.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

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  3. #3
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    Throw them in the hosebed of the Mack and transport!
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  4. #4
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    In Ohio ambulance crew can not call for medical helicopter. Fire department has to make the on scene call for a bird. If it is bad we will put one on stand by till the ambulance gets there. Not that this ever happens but if a ambulance crew member would come up and say they want a bird we would make that call to. Ambulance crews have to call in to the hospital for medical direction to have a bird come to the scene. In your case I would put them on stand by, call for ALS squad, and get an eta from them. Being that you’re at a motorcycle race if they do not have an ambulance on stand by. I would say you have a 20 min eta. If the bird can get to you quicker I would fly him myself. When we call for a bird they give us their eta. In all honesty I would fly them anyway. Chance are the road getting to him is bad. Our hospital is not a trauma center so they would fly anyway. You can always call the bird off if the ambulance crew gets there first. Do not think the ambulance would object to the bird coming in that case.

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    So the ambulance, who has the medical training, cannot call for a helicopter, but the fire department, who may have no medical training at all can ? I would love to hear the logic on that .....

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    Your protocol must suck because no where in ours does it say that an EMS worker cannot call for a helicopter.

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    Whoever told you that an ambulance can't call for the bird is utterly wrong. Perhaps your restrictive LOCAL protocols say so, but this isn't a statewide thing. I've done it, and seen it done many times.

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    How far away is a trauma center? How far away is EMS? What are the traffic and road conditions?

    Your question can't be answered with the information given.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  9. #9
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    Ok nmfire


    Weather Conditions:Mostly Sunny
    Wind: NNE 4-5MPH 0 Gusts

    Closest Ambulance with EMTs onboard is 20 minutes out.

    Closest trauma center is in Camden, 35 minutes by ground, 20 by air.

    Traffic is clear.

    Road conditions are ok


    Here's how I should've written the situation before I posted it.

    Your the chief

    Your Rescue Engine is responding with 3 certified which are just now arrving on location.

    Your sister company has their engine responding 2 certified with 1 certified EMT on-board,10 minutes out.

    Local County EMTs have been dispatched and are 35 minutes out.

    Your on scene, the parks EMS crew are there with you, do you put the chopper on standby or wait 10 minutes for the EMT on another engine to determine it for you?

  10. #10
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    C-other

    Call EMS Immediately. Call the bird and get them on the way. With the MOI and the possible time to get to patient, flying to a trauma center would be the best option.

    It's possible that local protocols require you to call med control to request a helicopter but I assume that would be just for a notification type of thing, med control would be foolish to get a report from personnel on scene and decide to downgrade a request for a helicopter. Pre-hospital providers are the eyes in the field for the docs.
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    (Previously posted as Hobbitt. Registered December '02,)

  11. #11
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    Asstengineer292 - Is this a race or a backwoods accident?

    What is access like to the location for vehicles?

    How long would the helicopter take to get to the scene?

    If this happened in my are with limited access I would call for the bird immediatly - It is ALS and can also pick up a DR. Get to the scene secure ABC's, spinal precautions - bird should be there fly him to the trauma centre.

    You are asking a question that is geographical specific - many dont know your area. How far is the scene, location problems (trees, power lines, uneven terrain), distance to the trauma centre.

    With the way your question is stated the real answer is: I WOULD DO WHAT I COULD DO WITHIN THE SCOPE OF MY PRACTICE TO GET THE PATIENT TO THE TRAUMA CENTRE IN THE SAFEST AND SHORTEST AMOUNT OF TIME POSSIBLE!
    -I have learned people will forget what you said,
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    -But people will never forget how you made them feel!

  12. #12
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    And how long does it take to get a helicopter on scene? I can only use here as an example... 10 minutes. It's simple math at that point.

    Ground:
    20 minute response time
    35 minute transport
    55 Minutes total to the hospital

    Air:
    10 minute response time
    20 minute transport time
    30 minutes total to the hospital

    Hmmm.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by Dave404
    Asstengineer292 - Is this a race or a backwoods accident?

    What is access like to the location for vehicles?

    How long would the helicopter take to get to the scene?

    If this happened in my are with limited access I would call for the bird immediatly - It is ALS and can also pick up a DR. Get to the scene secure ABC's, spinal precautions - bird should be there fly him to the trauma centre.

    You are asking a question that is geographical specific - many dont know your area. How far is the scene, location problems (trees, power lines, uneven terrain), distance to the trauma centre.

    With the way your question is stated the real answer is: I WOULD DO WHAT I COULD DO WITHIN THE SCOPE OF MY PRACTICE TO GET THE PATIENT TO THE TRAUMA CENTRE IN THE SAFEST AND SHORTEST AMOUNT OF TIME POSSIBLE!

    This is at a local off-road vehicle park, not a race he was just riding his moto x bike and wrecked.

    The chopper would be 5 minutes out and could land inside the race park at the main race track, which was shutdown like anytime there is an incident there.

    The terrain is a bit rough to the back pits, where the victim is BUT we can get our new engine back there.

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    Well - that makes it simple - call the helicopter, land them at the scene and fly the patient away.

    Now why are you asking?? Did something like this happen?
    -I have learned people will forget what you said,
    -People will forget what you did,
    -But people will never forget how you made them feel!

  15. #15
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    Even though we have a paramedic Parish EMS ambulance at our station, and we are only 15-20 minutes (under most conditions) to the trauma center by ground, it is our protocol to call for the chopper anytime the dispatch reports "heavy damage" or "rollover" as soon as we are banged out. If the first firefighter on scene (he does not have to be EMS qualified) arrives on scene and sees extrication is required, our protocol also requires him to call for the bird if it has not been flown already, irregardless of visiable injuries, because of the delayed extrication/transport time.
    We have found it easier to call for it early, as when it is called for late, the time is saves is wasted making the decision.

  16. #16
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    Originally posted by AsstEngineer292
    The chopper would be 5 minutes out and could land inside the race park at the main race track, which was shutdown like anytime there is an incident there.
    Any firefighter, police officer, or EMT can request either northstar or southstar to respond ton any incident. if southstar is 5 minutes away, and the ambulance is 10 minutes away, call for the damn chopper!!!! it's simple, the choppers can get there quicker, the chopper can transport to UMD-Camden quicker, and the patient is critical.

    now, when you are dealing with the golder hour, do you really want to be wasting time?
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

  17. #17
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    Thumbs down

    Start a poll on firehouse,com and wait for the results.

  18. #18
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    ground for me because i only live 5 miutes to trama center but in your case i would probably fly.
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  19. #19
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    Yesterday, we had a guy go head first off of a motorcycle(I'll see if I can post pictures of the accident scene later on). No helmet. I arrived first on scene within seconds of the ending of the dispatch(it was literally right around the corner from my house.) It was one of those times when you hear tire screeches and you jokingly go 'get your gear on', and then you actually have to....

    Anyway, upon my arrival, the patient was combative, throwing up blood, bleeding from the ears, a very large hematoma on his forehead, and a severe compound fracture of his ankle(His foot was totally perpindicular to his leg, and his bones were jutting out from his skin).

    Now, I am an EMT, but I can tell you that regardless of my medical training, I still would've done exactly what I did yesterday: Medevac into the air IMMEDIATELY....

    My question for you is: Why is this even a question? If you're that far from a trauma center, this should be automatic. It is for us(we're 30 minutes by ground to the nearest level I trauma centers)
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

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  20. #20
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    All I have is CPR and First Aid and I know the answer to this one...

    None of the above.

    By the time we'd be dispatched on a call like this, an ALS medic unit (EMS squads are staffed 24/7 with paid medics in our area) would already have been dispatched, been given additional info taken from the caller, have put the helicopter on stand-by (they always do for incidents reported like this), and (maybe) have arrived on scene. Our job is easy: show up to land the bird, give EMS extra hands if needed, and then pack up and go home.

    In the odd event that we somehow managed to get a unit there first, we'd give a report on the patient for the incoming ALS unit and request a helicopter. If we were dispatched, it's a given EMS has already been dispatched and is probably on the road...having a single, county-wide Fire/EMS/PD communications center is a wonderful thing.
    Last edited by bobsnyder; 05-09-2005 at 05:54 PM.

  21. #21
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    Originally posted by fireguy919
    In Ohio ambulance crew can not call for medical helicopter. Fire department has to make the on scene call for a bird.
    Must be a local protocal.. In our part of Ohio, EMS calls for LifeFlight and MedFlight all the time. Remind me to not get into a crash in your area.
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

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  22. #22
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    Rich you took the words out of my mouth, any LEO,EMS, and FD can request an air ambulance, I have no idea where 919 got or gets reasoning for that. Second What are the "certifed" people's level of care on the fire apprati ? CPR ? First Responder ? WHAT ?> If the bird is only 5 mins out I would fly the guy amd I am medic. This guy is FUBAR and is critical. If you have no medical training, (first responder or higher) then what are you even doing at this scene > ?
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  23. #23
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    Go figure......... another poll.....

    As for fireguy919's comment about Ohio EMS not able to call for a bird, disregard that........ He is wrong......... Must just be a local regulation......
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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  24. #24
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    If working with EMS: launch helo immediately.

    If working with fire: call for ALS backup and put helo on standby.
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    I would have to say that I would call for an EMS provider making sure that an ALS unit was on the way as well. In most areas it is requried that you have an EMT-B or higher to transport so transporting is out of the question, also in a lot of areas getting a helecopter is out of the question because a paramedic has to be there to contact the medical director and make that decision, an most likly the injuries are so bad that they need help now and waiting for a helecopter to come would take too long so i would without a doubt in my mind call for an EMS provider

    Stay safe

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