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    Default Police Shootout

    LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- Investigations are under way to determine why sheriff's deputies fired about 120 shots at a vehicle to end a car chase in Compton, Los Angeles County Sheriff Lee Baca said Tuesday.

    The suspect, identified by Baca as Winston Hayes, 44, was found to be unarmed, but has an arrest record for narcotics and assaults.

    Hayes was wounded, but Baca said the injuries were not life threatening. One deputy was also injured, he said, possibly by friendly fire.

    Baca said the district attorney's office and sheriff's department were conducting investigations into the incident, including whether the massive amount of police gunfire was appropriate.

    "We're going to look at every aspect of this shooting, we're going to examine the intensity of what occurred, we're going to examine our policy, and we're going to again learn from this there is no such thing as a safe shooting anywhere in urban America," Baca said.

    Still, he acknowledged, "We can do better. No matter what the circumstances are, we can always to better."

    Baca said reports of gunfire in the neighborhood -- an area of Compton that has seen a increase in gang-related gunfire, according to The Associated Press -- brought the deputies to the scene. A white SUV was reportedly involved, Baca told AP.

    Hayes was driving a white Chevrolet Tahoe SUV, AP reported.

    "(The suspect) had been circling the block for about four hours, in a strange manner," Baca said on CNN's "American Morning."

    After a 12-minute car chase, officers surrounded the vehicle and opened fire, an event captured on video by by a news photographer alerted to the incident by a police scanner.

    The sheriff said the vehicle was moving backward toward deputies at one point during the incident.

    A deputy who appears on the videotape to have fallen just before the shooting started may have triggered the barrage, Baca said.

    Some people who live nearby reported their homes were hit by bullets as well.

    None of the deputies involved will be allowed to return to active duty for five business days, and then only after being interviewed by psychologists, Baca said.

    "They're going to look at what was the triggering point for the shooting," he said.

    It could be "a couple of weeks" before investigators know much more, he said.

    Meanwhile, Hayes will be charged with evading a peace officer and assault with a deadly weapon, in this case, the vehicle, police said.

    According to the AP, Baca said while no weapon was found in the suspect's vehicle, investigators did find a dozen shell casings in the area where the chase began.

    Baca blamed Hayes for leading his deputies on a chase in the first place. "He should have just let them pull him over and do their investigation and we would not have any of this."



    ANYBODY ELSE DISTURBED BY THE FACT THAT THEY FIRED SOMETHING LIKE 120 ROUNDS AND ONLY WOUNDED THE GUY? NO, I DON'T WISH FOR HIS DEATH, I'M MORE DISTURBED BY THE HORRENDOUS MARKSMENSHIP. WE DON'T KNOW FROM THIS ARTICLE ALL THE FACTORS AND DIFFERENT THINGS THAT COULD HAVE AFFECTED THEIR AIM, BUT STILL; I WOULD NOT WANT TO BE A BYSTANDER ANYWHERE WITHIN A MILE OF THAT KIND OF EXCHANGE. THOUGHTS?
    Isiah 43: When you walk through the fire,
    you will not be burned;
    the flames will not set you ablaze
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    9-11-01. We Will Never Forget You.

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    Bad marksmanship, bad discipline, the Sheriff should be totally embarrassed by the entire episode.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Way more poor discipline than poor markmanship. They, reportedly, were trying to shoot the tires outor disable the vehicle. That might be the way they do it in CA, but it is a sure ticket to an indictment in NJ (no shooting at a moving vehicle to disable it).

    Firing a weapon is deadly force, no matter how you view it. You don't shoot at someone to hurt them. You shoot at them to kill them. It is poor discipline that so many officers so many shots in so much of a haphazard manner. One of the things an officer has to think about is where that bullet is going to end up after he fires it.

    This is a very poor reflection on this department. Look for wholesale changes.

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    If they were just shooting for the tires then the marksmanship is just as bad, as the news clip I saw showed the windshield pepered with bullets.

    Somebody needs to get seriously punished for this one.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    George, that's the way I was taught in the Army military police corps where I spent some time as a Lt.

    One bullet, one kill or leave it on your side.

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    Could it have been something like when one guys yells "RUN!!" and everybody ust follows? Maybe one guy started the shooting, and everyone just reacted to the sound of the gunfire?
    Isiah 43: When you walk through the fire,
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    the flames will not set you ablaze
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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    Originally posted by SkipJack270
    Could it have been something like when one guys yells "RUN!!" and everybody ust follows? Maybe one guy started the shooting, and everyone just reacted to the sound of the gunfire?
    Thus **** poor discipline.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Originally posted by SkipJack270
    Could it have been something like when one guys yells "RUN!!" and everybody ust follows? Maybe one guy started the shooting, and everyone just reacted to the sound of the gunfire?
    It doesn't matter. One of the justifications for the use of deadly force is not "Well, one of the other guys shot first!" You have to justified to kill someone in order to fire your weapon.

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    I have not seen the video yet. Were the Deputies using their pistols or assault rifles? Either way send them all back to use of Deadly Force 101.

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    While that is a bad situation, I belive it speaks to a larger problem with police agencies. Every officer involved shooting I read about mentions a large number of shots with very few hits.

    Even watching COPS or any of the police video shows you see the same. I saw two officers unload a full clip on COPS a couple months ago. The shooting started at point blank range and they continued to fire as the perp ran. Two full clips, 0 hits.

    Are we looking at a real problem here?
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    Although I tend to agree with the accuracy of police, with corrosponding degrees of safety for the populace is at risk, let me play devils advocate for a moment: For most officers, thankfully, they may only pull their weapon a few times AND ACTUALLY USE IT. Plenty police officers pull their guns as a precaution, but never fire them. Could the cause of the high degree of innacuracy go along with adrenaline, fear, and maybe self-preservation? I mean, I've heard stories of police and military alike where somebody had all the training, went through the shooting houses, etc, and still couldn't hit the ground when it came time to apply all of that training. I think a lot of it is experience IN AN ACTUAL SITUATION. However, I think it would be tough to get funding to shoot at police so they understand what it is like.
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    the flames will not set you ablaze
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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    Holy Toledo, that's a lot of missed shots!!!
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    George is absolutely correct. A firearm is deadly force. There is no such thing as "shoot to wound" ever. You are trained to aim center mast and work your way up until the suspect drops.

    I don't know what LAPD's policy on firing at suspect in a vehicle or firing on a vehicle to disable it is. However, I think I can be rather certain that with 120+ shots fired at one vehicle for whatever reason, someone (probably several people) screwed up bad.

    I don't know what's worse, the fact that they fire 120 shots... or that they fired 120 shots and only wounded him.
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    Originally posted by firenresq77
    Holy Toledo, that's a lot of missed shots!!!
    That's why I like shotguns.
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    Originally posted by Dave1983
    While that is a bad situation, I belive it speaks to a larger problem with police agencies. Every officer involved shooting I read about mentions a large number of shots with very few hits.

    Even watching COPS or any of the police video shows you see the same. I saw two officers unload a full clip on COPS a couple months ago. The shooting started at point blank range and they continued to fire as the perp ran. Two full clips, 0 hits.

    Are we looking at a real problem here?
    No.

    The statistics that we were taught when we trained, I believe they came from the Street Survival series, were that most armed encounters occured at less than 7 feet, lasted less than 21 seconds and involved less than 10 rounds.

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    Although I couldnt get a feel from the video how the scene was. I no doubt think it was excessive force. It was in no way the best way to cure the problem. The Cops were actually shooting at each other. The vehicle was surrounded and you can actually see them shooting right at each other on the other side of the vehicle. To me it was poor judgement. One person shooting I could justify, but not all 10 or so of them.

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    anyone got the news link to the page ?
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    The thing that struck me as odd was that it seemed like that joke about a Polish Firing Squad. The cops seemed to be on all sides of that SUV and firing. It's amazing that they didn't kill one another, let alone the perps.

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    Originally posted by Weruj1
    anyone got the news link to the page ?
    http://news4colorado.com/topstories/...130110350.html

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    Thanks for the link....... Amazing.......
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    No.

    The statistics that we were taught when we trained, I believe they came from the Street Survival series, were that most armed encounters occured at less than 7 feet, lasted less than 21 seconds and involved less than 10 rounds.
    I had heard that statistic as well.

    This seems to be overkill, and the Sheriff said as much in his press conference today as well. The Sheriff (it was LA County Sheriff's deputies involved - NOT LAPD officers) seemed quite irritated at teh lack of discipline the deputies showed.

    I could arm chair quarterback all day long, but I shall refrain. I know that adrenaline and scene intensity can very easily cloud judgement sometimes, but how many freaking shot need to be fired at a vehicle that is blocked in by cruisers (if you see the entire tape you will see him strike one cruiser and another one is not too far behind the vehicle) and going at about 5 miles per hour and no officers are near the vehicle?
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    The thing that struck me (pardon pun) was that, in the vid, you could see officers so close to the SUV, if they were truly trying to disable it, the guy could have unfastened the bleeding lugnuts. That was how close he was to the tire. At the very least, aim at the tires, shoot them out, then your suspect is not going anywhere. It just baffles me why they would open up like that.
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    My understanding of disabling a vehicle with a firearm is the only immediate disabling shot is a hit on the distributor cap.
    That being next to impossible with a handgun leaves no excuse for firing without the intent to kill.

    Before you post a Vid of a 50 Cal. taking a car apart in Iraq, I am referring to small arms and local police.

    This is as embarrasing a police video as I have ever seen.

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    WOW !!!!!!! I just saw the video ........... I know I dont have all the story ...but DANG ! they just started shootin ! and they were close !
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
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    Thats another reason cops aren't Firemen!
    120 shots I surprised they even hit the suburban.
    Don't know the exact source but I read that their was a state that just issued a carry conceal act. Shortly after, a robber went to a gun shop. Walked past two cops on his way in,He then walked in and fired one shot in the air yelled freeze, and before he could point the shotgun at someone he was shot by the customers inside. Don't know how many customers were in the store but I read that their were 40 casings accounted for and 38 holes in the perp. With this said I think it just shows those who use guns know how to shoot guns. Just cause you can hit a standing still target all day long don't mean you can hit whatever you shoot at all day long. I think they need to spend a little more time and training at the range.
    And for the Polish firing squad, That is just pure stupid.

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