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  1. #26
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    Default Painting with a broad brush

    Originally posted by ChicagoFF
    How many companies do you know that would surrender their line to ANY other company and go rest? Not here.
    I'll give you the 4th, 5th and maybe on a good day some companies in the 6th that live up to your assertation
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    Im in the 4th so I'm glad we made your list!!!!

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    I'm just messin with you Brother. Duckers can be found on every fire company in the world.
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    no, you were right - 4th and 5th are the best - some 6th too and 9th batt up north

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    Originally posted by ChicagoFF
    People also mention limiting your working time. How many companies do you know that would surrender their line to ANY other company and go rest? Not here.
    Amen brother. We do not have a rehab policy, and when we go for mutual aid for the cities around us, its funny to see them going outside for their mandatory "water break" and we go right past them and actually do work for a living!!! The first engine company there is still the last to leave (ok, maybe the 1st due truck stays last sometimes....)
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    OFD226 and ChicagoFF,

    Yepper, we regularly give up the line in the middle of the firefight because it is time to rehab. That is the most ridiculous nonsense I have ever heard on here. Come on how about a little common sense in your answers? You don't drop the line because you have been inside for X amount of time and leave. Both of my current FD's have a 2 bottle rule. After 2 bottles of air you rehab. I guarantee you that neither of my FD's are the size of either Chicago or Oakland and we manage to do it without having to have mutual aid come in and fight our fires for us. But I guess since a lot of larger metro FD's don't use their SCBA, they just wear them, it would be hard to judge when you used 2 bottles of air.

    The Oakland Fire Department has no official rehab policy? I find that totally pathetic. So the official line there is to work until you drop and then you get to take a break? If that isn't the way it is then please explain.

    As far as marching past me at a fire and putting out my fire you'd better be ready to physically take the hose from my hands because I am not giving it up to you or any other mutual aid company. It's nice to know you have such disdain for the brother's in your neighboring FD's.

    Sure, we send the trench rescue team, scuba team, high angle rescue team, collapse rescue and the USAR team to every fire just in case. Again, come on, that is totally ridiculous. Telling firefighters to wear the proper turnout gear is not over kill. It is good sound safety practice. But hey it's cool to wear your pull up boots rolled down, with a long coat, no hood so your ears can tell you that you will be spending a few days in the burn unit, and the SCBA on your back with the waist straps unfastened and the mask hangin off the hose by your waist. I think I prefer to be uncool, wear my full gear and be able to go back to the station or home after a call.

    FyredUp

  7. #32
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    FyredUp

    Go back to France you cheese eating surrender monkey.

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    I remember when we were forced into the change back in the early 80's. Member's thought that this was the worst move ever made for someone who has summer's in the low 100's with high humidty. We were all accustomed to the 3/4's and did not have any problems with them.

    Now that were have been in them for some time, they are not as bad as we expected. The protection offered by bunkers is far superior to that of 3/4's. Yea, they are hotter in the summer, but we have become use to them and do not see any more heat related problems with them.

    One key is for the I.C. to know when to give the crews a break and allow them to cool off properly. Members who are experiencing heat related symptoms are removed from the scene and placed in rehab for evaluation. If it is determined that the member is fit to return they are allowed to re-join their crew. Also all members are encouraged to stay properly hydrated prior to arrival at the fire scene.
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  9. #34
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    Originally posted by LFD131
    FyredUp

    Go back to France you cheese eating surrender monkey.
    Excellent way to get this thread shut down........
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
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  10. #35
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    FyredUp, my department doesn't have a rehab policy either. Why is that pathetic? Do you know when we rehab? When we absolutely can't do any more work and need a quick break. Works well for us. Well actually, my rule of thumb is when my carboxyhemaglobin levels reach 30%, then I take a breather. You know, masks are for pussies.

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    LFD....

    Go back to France you cheese eating surrender monkey.
    Thank you for your highly intelligent, insiteful, and very useful addition to this thread. I look forward to continuing to learn absolutely nothing from you.

    erics99...

    Your FD has no official rehab policy either? You do realize it is 2005 don't you?

    Do you know when we rehab? When we absolutely can't do any more work and need a quick break.
    Here is why this idea is flawed. If you wait until you absolutely can't do anymore to rehab you will be out of service far longer than if you stop at some kind of established interval and rehydrate, get your vitals checked, cool off and then go back to work. There is no reason to continue to work until you are ready to drop. Unless the idea of heat stress related injuries thrill you,or a heart attack is your ultimate goal.

    Of course there may be times when that interval is increased due to tactical concerns on the fire ground. But working up to the point that you physically can't do anymore is just plain dangerous.

    You know, masks are for pussies.
    And brain cancer, liver cancer, empysema, and a host of other breathing and cancer related maladies are for real men who prefer to carry an SCBA on their back for no apparent reason other than the department policy says you will wear it, but doesn't mandate that you actually breath through it.



    To everyone else...Look for me the answer is clear, full protective clothing and SCBA usage is the way to be fully protected. If your FD chooses to allow you to wear less, then so be it. But don't believe for one second that the days of pull up boots, long coats, and leather lungs will ever make a large sweeping come back to the majority of the fire service. It won't and it can't, because in reality it just simply doesn't make sense to go backwards.

    Okay, I am standing by to be blasted again. Or to hear how wearing bunker pants is leading to an end of life on this planet.

    FyredUp

  12. #37
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    Originally posted by FyredUp


    Your FD has no official rehab policy either? You do realize it is 2005 don't you?

    FyredUp

    Fyred Up,

    My depatment has no "official" rehab policy either. It is 2005, but that doesn't make us "bass-ackwards". We tend to rely on ourselves to know when to say when. Our bosses listen to us, and rely on us to know our own limits. Fluids (gatorade/water) are present at every fire scene I have been to.
    If it's hot or cold we call in more companies, a luxury we have that many smaller departments don't have. I don't know your department, if you don't have the additional resources immediately available I can see rehab policies being more important. Because we have no "official" written policy in place for fires doesn't reduce our ability to work fires.


    The previous quote written about what/who masks are for makes me chuckle just a bit. A statement such as that can only be written by an individual who has never made a hard push. I'll take my mask with me everytime. Don't take that as saying I'm on air for everything, it's at my disposal though. It's also allowed me to take the pipe from someone who was unfortunate to not have their mask with them.
    Bunker gear is also necessary to do hard work. You will never convince me that you can make it as far in 3/4's as in pants, you just can't. Bunker gear is cumbersome, it is hot, and absolutely heat stress is more common wearing it. I do think all of that needs to be put aside for the times when you need to get in deeper, or crawl past a room engulfed; it's those times you need to have that extra heat protection, for you and whomever you are searching for. There are many area's on a fireground where you don't need pants and 3/4's would be great. The only problem I would have is the unknown factors. I'm not going to list any out, we can all make our own lists.
    Anyone who has been around for awhile know's just how differant a fire scene can be 5 or 10 minute's after being on scene. It's an everchanging environment. I would love to be able to wear 3/4's, but I would hate to be burned or not able to make a rescue because I didn't have my pants on.
    Last edited by jasper45; 05-16-2005 at 01:22 PM.

  13. #38
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    Jasper...

    For the most part we seem to agree on level of protection, including SCBA. I feel the same way you do about using the mask or bunker pants. It's great for people to talk about lightness and mobility issues of pull up boots until they have to leave because of heat that bunkers will allow you to be able to handle and perhaps successfully extinguish the fire without personal injury. The same thing with a mask, back when stuff was made out of wood and actual natural fiber materials maybe a mask wasn't as important as today. But darn near everything is made out of plastic or synthetics today and will mess you up, if not immediately, in 30 years when you should be enjoying retirement. The corrolary to the better gear is understanding that it does not make you superman and you still should be aware of what is going on around you as far as heat buildup and fire conditions so you know when to leave.

    As far as having an official policy on rehab here is my take on that. Unless there is some method of mandating that breaks be taken after what ever your FD determines is an appropriate time span some super hero types will never take a break until they are ready to drop, or actually do drop over. For every guy that goes down, at a minimum, 2 BLS personnel are now tending to his medical needs, 4 or 5 if it becomes ALS. Even more if the RIT team must be activated to rescue them from inside the structure. I would much rather utilize those personnel for the emergency at hand than one we created out of some meaningless need to prove that "Only sissies rehab" attitude. If voluntary rehab works for you guys great...I see it being more of a problem in others.

    FyredUp

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    I see this sort of like the original seat belt debate. Bunkers save lives, they protect you. Just as seat belts do, but originally some folks thought that they would trap you in a burning vehicle, or cut into you. Eventually everyone will wear bunkers, get used to them, and those that don't like them will retire.
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    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    If it's your fire you stay till it's out. Your company keeps the line. Rehab? No way.

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    Originally posted by ChicagoFF
    If it's your fire you stay till it's out. Your company keeps the line. Rehab? No way.
    Well, there's a progressive attitude.

    "Damn those kids and those Scott Packs"

    "We don't need a FAST team, we'll take care of ourselves".

    "I'll know when I've had enough-I'll puke".

    'bout time to pack it in there old timer. Check the calendar. It's 2005, not 1975.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 05-18-2005 at 06:29 PM.

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    Originally posted by ChicagoFF
    If it's your fire you stay till it's out. Your company keeps the line. Rehab? No way.
    Me thinks that someone takes "backdraft" a little too serioulsy...

    Let's hear your thoughts when you are there on the scene for an extended period of time... you'll be on your hands and needs begging for someone to take the line so you can take a blow...
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 05-18-2005 at 09:40 PM.
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    Maybe a bit off the topic, but we were talking about changing attitudes toward rehab at work the other day.

    SCBA, proper PPE, RIC, and even rehab are neccessities in today's fire service, and with all the new technology and progressive mindsets (ICS, safety officers, etc.), I think the fire service of today is better than it's ever been.

    BUT...

    I've noticed something in the past 8-10 years (and maybe it is just me)- along with all the progress we've gained in the realm of firefighter safety, I've noticed individuals who seem more preoccupied with checking boxes, waiting for the "two out" to pull a line, and only going interior when 3 companies are on scene than throwing down and getting the job done.

    I'm not saying "safety be damned," only that there is a fine line between being overly aggressive and stupid, and being a sissy (and I've seen a shift to the latter in recent years).

    I'd rather work with the guy who refuses to give up his line and has to be ordered out, than the guy who wants to know if he can go and grab some gatorade and cookies yet.

    "If it's your fire you stay till it's out. Your company keeps the line. Rehab? No way." Might sound a neanderthal-esque, sure, but that's the attitude that gets things done.

    OK, I'm done. Flame away!

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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    Well, there's a progressive attitude.

    "Damn those kids and those Scott Packs"

    "We don't need a FAST team, we'll take care of ourselves".

    "I'll know when I've had enough-I'll puke".

    'bout time to pack it in there old timer. Check the calendar. It's 2005, not 1975.
    Most of the firefighters in today's fire service wouldn't last a minute back in 1975 in some of the large, busy departments. Just because some departments have a traditional mentality doesn't mean they arn't equipt to handle and mitigate fire and emergency in 2005. If some people want to puss out just because they get tired and pass off their line, so be it. Stay the hell out of my department and I'm sure I speak for other big city departments too.

  20. #45
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    I love that attitude 'work till we drop'. I could never quite understand it. "Hmm, let's work in here till the point of exhaustion. We'll work till we can't work anymore."

    What happens on the way out when you're spent and sh** hits the fan? You can't even begin to self-rescue if you're in the condition that you collapsing out of the door, gasping air and ripping your mask off...... I'd rather come out for a couple minutes, change my bottle out, take a drink, and head back in refreshed and ready to battle the beast anew instead of staying in as long as possible and then collapsing out on the tailboard for the rest of the incident.


    I could never understand refusing to give up the line, either. If you've got it pretty much knocked, what's the shame in letting it go? This reminds me of the day when firefighters used to break into fist fights and send little kids running ahead with buckets to get 'first water'. Yeah, those days were back in the 1800s. Welcome to the modern world, genetlemen.


    Now, I won't lie to you. I've stayed in too long, gone in too deep, and not always taken proper precautions. I have one of my favorite fire ground pictures of me on my wall, hanging out the window waving for another bottle to change out in the building. They also gave my old roasted toasted salad bowl helmet to the Applebees to hang on their 'Salute our Local Heroes' section. Basically, I understand and sympathize on not wanting to give up a great knock or pushing it to the brink while searching for someone, but on a regular house fire, why risk it?

    Or are those Oakland bungalos worth your life?
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

    Safety is no accident.

  21. #46
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    Lightbulb

    I got an idea! Commonsense!

    If you know your body, and your body is telling you its time to go then you go. I do not need some EMS guru outside telling me I need to come out because HE said so or because its TIME. I am in fairly good shape, if body says its time than its time.

    Work ethic. Be dammed if I am going to give up the line if the jobs not done. Believe it or not people take great pride in their work and like to see things through.

    Conditioning and Training. Just came back from a combat zone do you think we would give up the 240 or M-2 because we were tired, HELL no, finish your assinged task break afterwards.

    Last note, saw this quote out at Indy;

    "If you put out the fire, you wont have to jump out windows"

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    God Bless

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    Originally posted by erics99


    Most of the firefighters in today's fire service wouldn't last a minute back in 1975 in some of the large, busy departments. Just because some departments have a traditional mentality doesn't mean they arn't equipt to handle and mitigate fire and emergency in 2005. If some people want to puss out just because they get tired and pass off their line, so be it. Stay the hell out of my department and I'm sure I speak for other big city departments too.
    You won't answer this, but...

    Exactly how many fires did you fight in 1975 and with what big city NJ FD?

    Lots of things, THANK GOD, have changed in the fire service since 1975.

    The attitude that you speak of is the reaon why, big city departments get their asses handed to them when there is an OSHA inspection.

    It will be a great day in the NJ fire service when idiotic, juvenile, macho, BS attitudes like you have are banished.

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    Guess I'll just have to put myself into the sissy-boy catagory ...

    I believe in mandatory SCBA use at all structure, vehicle AND trash ... yes TRASH fires.

    I beleive in mandatory rehab policies.

    I beleive in "giving up the line" to fresh crews while you rehab so you will be ready to take the line back when they are physically beat.

    I don't beleive in the macho indestrucable firefighter myths.

    And yes, I do beleive that 3/4 booots and long coats have no place in todays fire service.

    .... Guess I'll just take my girlie-boy attitude and end this post.

  24. #49
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    Originally posted by erics99


    Most of the firefighters in today's fire service wouldn't last a minute back in 1975 in some of the large, busy departments. Just because some departments have a traditional mentality doesn't mean they arn't equipt to handle and mitigate fire and emergency in 2005. If some people want to puss out just because they get tired and pass off their line, so be it. Stay the hell out of my department and I'm sure I speak for other big city departments too.
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Were you on the job then and could you hang in there if you were???

    I worked back in those years you mentioned. I worked before that time too. I have 44 years on da job. You can do da math to see when I came on. I was 21 years old. We operated with Chemox and the all service filter masks. The Truck Companies had two old Scott SCBAs in the basket, but no one ever used them.

    Back then we didn't any crap off any other company. We took it in and came out when the fire was out. We never, never gave our line up. I had a Battalion Chief try to get my line on a job and I told him to go get his own, this one belongs to 30's!

    Times have changed. Companies now rotate and no one on the scene goes pass the second air cylinder, without going through rehab. Extra alarms are sounded and members are platoon inside and out. This is our policy and guidelines. If you don't like or can't abide by the rules, seek employment else where. We do not want to bury any one else.

    I have a complete set of turnouts. I have the option to wear it all and I do if I am in the fire ground and in the "hot zone". If I am functioning as command, staging, or logistics, I usually wear what ever I need. Sometimes, it is 3/4 boots, turnout coat and helmet. If the weather is bad, rain, snow or just plain cold, I have it all on.

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    Been doing this for 17 years and there has been many many fires I know I couldn't have crawled to the seat of if I didn't have the bunkers and hood on. I may be a sissy to some but I'll tell you what, we got the job done! For those of you that don't wear a mask for car or dumpster fires, what is it you're trying to prove? To who? To the other guys that will join you in retirement along with the inevitable lung ailments? If Houston, Fort Worth and these other busy FDs that wear bunkers can do it, I think Chicago can.

    Yea I know, I don't know what I'm talking about. I've heard it before.

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