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  1. #41
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    Originally posted by ChicagoFF
    If it's your fire you stay till it's out. Your company keeps the line. Rehab? No way.
    Well, there's a progressive attitude.

    "Damn those kids and those Scott Packs"

    "We don't need a FAST team, we'll take care of ourselves".

    "I'll know when I've had enough-I'll puke".

    'bout time to pack it in there old timer. Check the calendar. It's 2005, not 1975.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 05-18-2005 at 06:29 PM.


  2. #42
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    Originally posted by ChicagoFF
    If it's your fire you stay till it's out. Your company keeps the line. Rehab? No way.
    Me thinks that someone takes "backdraft" a little too serioulsy...

    Let's hear your thoughts when you are there on the scene for an extended period of time... you'll be on your hands and needs begging for someone to take the line so you can take a blow...
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 05-18-2005 at 09:40 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  3. #43
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    Maybe a bit off the topic, but we were talking about changing attitudes toward rehab at work the other day.

    SCBA, proper PPE, RIC, and even rehab are neccessities in today's fire service, and with all the new technology and progressive mindsets (ICS, safety officers, etc.), I think the fire service of today is better than it's ever been.

    BUT...

    I've noticed something in the past 8-10 years (and maybe it is just me)- along with all the progress we've gained in the realm of firefighter safety, I've noticed individuals who seem more preoccupied with checking boxes, waiting for the "two out" to pull a line, and only going interior when 3 companies are on scene than throwing down and getting the job done.

    I'm not saying "safety be damned," only that there is a fine line between being overly aggressive and stupid, and being a sissy (and I've seen a shift to the latter in recent years).

    I'd rather work with the guy who refuses to give up his line and has to be ordered out, than the guy who wants to know if he can go and grab some gatorade and cookies yet.

    "If it's your fire you stay till it's out. Your company keeps the line. Rehab? No way." Might sound a neanderthal-esque, sure, but that's the attitude that gets things done.

    OK, I'm done. Flame away!

  4. #44
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    Well, there's a progressive attitude.

    "Damn those kids and those Scott Packs"

    "We don't need a FAST team, we'll take care of ourselves".

    "I'll know when I've had enough-I'll puke".

    'bout time to pack it in there old timer. Check the calendar. It's 2005, not 1975.
    Most of the firefighters in today's fire service wouldn't last a minute back in 1975 in some of the large, busy departments. Just because some departments have a traditional mentality doesn't mean they arn't equipt to handle and mitigate fire and emergency in 2005. If some people want to puss out just because they get tired and pass off their line, so be it. Stay the hell out of my department and I'm sure I speak for other big city departments too.

  5. #45
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    I love that attitude 'work till we drop'. I could never quite understand it. "Hmm, let's work in here till the point of exhaustion. We'll work till we can't work anymore."

    What happens on the way out when you're spent and sh** hits the fan? You can't even begin to self-rescue if you're in the condition that you collapsing out of the door, gasping air and ripping your mask off...... I'd rather come out for a couple minutes, change my bottle out, take a drink, and head back in refreshed and ready to battle the beast anew instead of staying in as long as possible and then collapsing out on the tailboard for the rest of the incident.


    I could never understand refusing to give up the line, either. If you've got it pretty much knocked, what's the shame in letting it go? This reminds me of the day when firefighters used to break into fist fights and send little kids running ahead with buckets to get 'first water'. Yeah, those days were back in the 1800s. Welcome to the modern world, genetlemen.


    Now, I won't lie to you. I've stayed in too long, gone in too deep, and not always taken proper precautions. I have one of my favorite fire ground pictures of me on my wall, hanging out the window waving for another bottle to change out in the building. They also gave my old roasted toasted salad bowl helmet to the Applebees to hang on their 'Salute our Local Heroes' section. Basically, I understand and sympathize on not wanting to give up a great knock or pushing it to the brink while searching for someone, but on a regular house fire, why risk it?

    Or are those Oakland bungalos worth your life?
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

    Safety is no accident.

  6. #46
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    Lightbulb

    I got an idea! Commonsense!

    If you know your body, and your body is telling you its time to go then you go. I do not need some EMS guru outside telling me I need to come out because HE said so or because its TIME. I am in fairly good shape, if body says its time than its time.

    Work ethic. Be dammed if I am going to give up the line if the jobs not done. Believe it or not people take great pride in their work and like to see things through.

    Conditioning and Training. Just came back from a combat zone do you think we would give up the 240 or M-2 because we were tired, HELL no, finish your assinged task break afterwards.

    Last note, saw this quote out at Indy;

    "If you put out the fire, you wont have to jump out windows"

    Lt. Andy Fredricks
    FDNY

    God Bless

  7. #47
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    Originally posted by erics99


    Most of the firefighters in today's fire service wouldn't last a minute back in 1975 in some of the large, busy departments. Just because some departments have a traditional mentality doesn't mean they arn't equipt to handle and mitigate fire and emergency in 2005. If some people want to puss out just because they get tired and pass off their line, so be it. Stay the hell out of my department and I'm sure I speak for other big city departments too.
    You won't answer this, but...

    Exactly how many fires did you fight in 1975 and with what big city NJ FD?

    Lots of things, THANK GOD, have changed in the fire service since 1975.

    The attitude that you speak of is the reaon why, big city departments get their asses handed to them when there is an OSHA inspection.

    It will be a great day in the NJ fire service when idiotic, juvenile, macho, BS attitudes like you have are banished.

  8. #48
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    Guess I'll just have to put myself into the sissy-boy catagory ...

    I believe in mandatory SCBA use at all structure, vehicle AND trash ... yes TRASH fires.

    I beleive in mandatory rehab policies.

    I beleive in "giving up the line" to fresh crews while you rehab so you will be ready to take the line back when they are physically beat.

    I don't beleive in the macho indestrucable firefighter myths.

    And yes, I do beleive that 3/4 booots and long coats have no place in todays fire service.

    .... Guess I'll just take my girlie-boy attitude and end this post.

  9. #49
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    Originally posted by erics99


    Most of the firefighters in today's fire service wouldn't last a minute back in 1975 in some of the large, busy departments. Just because some departments have a traditional mentality doesn't mean they arn't equipt to handle and mitigate fire and emergency in 2005. If some people want to puss out just because they get tired and pass off their line, so be it. Stay the hell out of my department and I'm sure I speak for other big city departments too.
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Were you on the job then and could you hang in there if you were???

    I worked back in those years you mentioned. I worked before that time too. I have 44 years on da job. You can do da math to see when I came on. I was 21 years old. We operated with Chemox and the all service filter masks. The Truck Companies had two old Scott SCBAís in the basket, but no one ever used them.

    Back then we didn't any crap off any other company. We took it in and came out when the fire was out. We never, never gave our line up. I had a Battalion Chief try to get my line on a job and I told him to go get his own, this one belongs to 30's!

    Times have changed. Companies now rotate and no one on the scene goes pass the second air cylinder, without going through rehab. Extra alarms are sounded and members are platoon inside and out. This is our policy and guidelines. If you don't like or can't abide by the rules, seek employment else where. We do not want to bury any one else.

    I have a complete set of turnouts. I have the option to wear it all and I do if I am in the fire ground and in the "hot zone". If I am functioning as command, staging, or logistics, I usually wear what ever I need. Sometimes, it is 3/4 boots, turnout coat and helmet. If the weather is bad, rain, snow or just plain cold, I have it all on.

  10. #50
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    Been doing this for 17 years and there has been many many fires I know I couldn't have crawled to the seat of if I didn't have the bunkers and hood on. I may be a sissy to some but I'll tell you what, we got the job done! For those of you that don't wear a mask for car or dumpster fires, what is it you're trying to prove? To who? To the other guys that will join you in retirement along with the inevitable lung ailments? If Houston, Fort Worth and these other busy FDs that wear bunkers can do it, I think Chicago can.

    Yea I know, I don't know what I'm talking about. I've heard it before.

  11. #51
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    Here is another concept, if you need bunkers and a hood to make a fire the truck guys aren't doing their job.

    Ventilate like you are in an old rubber coat with no mask.

    Their have been advancements that I like our gear is put together better it is far harder to get real steam burns like it was with my first coat, and I wouldn't go back to the old fireball gloves even if that was the only thing issued.

  12. #52
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    Work ethic really has nothing to do with wearing the proper protective equipment. If you equate work ethic with wearing pull up boots, a long coat and no SCBA then you logic is totally flawed. You can only never have to give up the line on an interior firefight if you don't wear or use your SCBA. If you use SCBA eventually the low air alarm will sound and you will have to leave to get a new bottle. If you don't wear SCBA that doesn't happen of course. Although smoke inhalation, and the introduction of every other chemical, gas and particulant matter that is floating around in that fire is being taken in on every breath as well as the danger of breathing in super heated air. Remember they may not kill you right away but the evidence is clear that cancers and other maladies that don't show up for decades are caused by the by-products.

    So call me a sissy, or a sell-out, tell me I don't know anything about firefighting, tell me I haven't been to as many fires as you, and I'll tell you that I'll visit you in the burn ward, or the hyberbaric chamber, or the cancer ward. As for me I have been there with the long coats and pull up boots, with no hoods and limited use of SCBA and NO Thank You I won't go back to that.

    Those of you that prefer the pull up boots, long coats and no SCBA approach to firefighting must not have much of an argument to support that since it really didn't take long for the personal attacks to start on those of us that disagree.

    Have a nice day, I know I am going to.

    FyredUp
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-21-2005 at 09:38 AM.

  13. #53
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    Since I started, we have had full bunkers. The only 3/4 boots and long coat belonged to the Chief. We didnt have hoods, but have for about the last 15 years. Weve always had SCBA, but I can recall a time when it was only used on structure fires. Now you are expected to use it an all fires. If you dont, expect a write up.

    As for rehab, our county has a one bottle rule. Probably a good idea, as in the summer it can get quite nasty here. Not so much the heat but the humidity. Its brutal. We even do rehab on large scale EMS incidents and MVC's with extended extrication. With our county wide automatic mutual aid, we have the resources to do this. A lot of areas dont.

    As for this "macho argument", all I am going to say is my number one goal is to make it home to my family at the end of every shift. I would like to be around to enjoy my grand children someday. And I dont mean from a bed in a nursing home or Hospice.

    Ive been to several FD funerals, for men who had a lot of living yet to do. Ive looked into the eyes of young children who no longer have a father. Ive witnessed the tears of the widows. I'd rather not go through that again.

    For those of you who mock those of us that use full PPE, SCBA and do rehab, go ahead, enjoy yourselves. Just take a moment sometime to think of the hearts you'll break when your macho additude bites you in the arse.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 05-21-2005 at 05:35 PM.
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  14. #54
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dave1983
    Since I started, we have had full bunkers. The only 3/4 boots and long coat belonged to the Chief. We didnt have hoods, but have for about the last 15 years. Weve always had SCBA, but I can recall a time when it was only used on structure fires. Now you are expected to use it an all fires. If you dont, expect a write up.

    As for rehab, our county has a one bottle rule. Probably a good idea, as in the summer it can get quite nasty here. Not so much the heat but the humidity. Its brutal. We even do rehab on large scale EMS incidents and MVC's with extended extrication. With our county wide automatic mutual aid, we have the resources to do this. A lot of areas dont.

    As for this "macho argument", all I am going to say is my number one goal is to make it home to my family at the end of every shift. I would like to be around to enjoy my grand children someday. And I dont mean from a bed in a nursing home or Hospice.

    Ive been to several FD funerals, for men who had a lot of living yet to do. Ive looked into the eyes of young children who no longer have a father. Ive witnessed the tears of the widows. I'd rather not go through that again.

    For those of you who mock those of us that use full PPE, SCBA and do rehab, go ahead, enjoy yourselves. Just take a moment sometime to think of the hearts you'll break when your macho additude bites you in the arse.
    As my Brother hfd66truck is fond of saying....

    [size=huge] Bing-freakin'-O!!![/size]
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  15. #55
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    Well said, Dave........
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
    We are all adults so there is no need to act like a child........
    IACOJ

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    I second that.

    I guess our grizzled old veteran from NJ doesn't want to play anymore.

  17. #57
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    Work ethic. Be dammed if I am going to give up the line if the jobs not done. Believe it or not people take great pride in their work and like to see things through
    Fyred Up,

    Do you see anything in this quote that advocates not wearing proper protective equipment as mandated by department standards.

    Before you start preaching about my logic, please read the post.

    I am in the opinion you should have a choice. For most of the incidents I see or work at 3/4 boots would work just fine.
    Again nowhere do you see that I advocate not wearing department required protective gear. This was just an observation.

    My last post was in reply that some people that I have come across lately are all to willing to give up the line because they are "tired" or cant hang. Usally this is only after 5 or 10 minutes worth of work. I am not preaching machoism or idolship. I believe in working till the jobs' done.

    Just for general info, because I am an officer I DO where all of my department mandated gear and follow SCBA protacol as to set the proper example. I am not willing to let members get hurt by my example and or stupidity.
    Last edited by CaptainS; 05-22-2005 at 01:14 PM.

  18. #58
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    Originally posted by LaFireEducator
    Guess I'll just have to put myself into the sissy-boy catagory ...

    I believe in mandatory SCBA use at all structure, vehicle AND trash ... yes TRASH fires.

    I beleive in mandatory rehab policies.

    I beleive in "giving up the line" to fresh crews while you rehab so you will be ready to take the line back when they are physically beat.

    I don't beleive in the macho indestrucable firefighter myths.

    And yes, I do beleive that 3/4 booots and long coats have no place in todays fire service.

    .... Guess I'll just take my girlie-boy attitude and end this post.

    AMEN BROTHER.. I feel the same way exactly. I would rather rehab early so that the fire gets extinguished, rather than over-extend myself and create a patient for my fellow medics. ( paid paramedic and volunteer deputy fire chief ). It also means my firefighting brothers/sisters and I get home safely at the end of each and every run.

    LAFireEducator, AMEN. AMEN AMEN...
    Jason.
    Career Paramedic/Volunteer Firefighter
    Saving Lives or Basements everyday.
    Member of the IACOJ

    Goalies are the best btw :P

  19. #59
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    CaptainS...

    The simple fact is that you will have to be relieved at some point during a firefight unless you are NOT wearing full PPE, to include SCBA. At times it is not possible to complete the task without being relieved and getting a new bottle.

    I also believe in working until the job is done or I am relieved at my position. Bailing because of some imaginary time constraint or after 5 or 10 minutes or because you think you need to because you are tired are usually inappropriate. Proper rehab and 2 bottle rules make complete sense. Why work until you are ready to drop? Recovery from that state usually takes far longer than doing a 2 bottle rehab.

    3/4 boots do not offer even close to the protection of bunkers. I would not want to go interior with a FF wearing 3/4 boots if I was in bunkers. They are not protected to the same level as I am and will not be able to go where I can. Furthermore, think of what goes on in the area that is not covered when you wear pull up boots and a long coat. Besides waste removal there are also recreational activities that occur within that region. I would prefer they all be protected and continue to function unihibited by burn injuries.

    Have a nice day.

    FyredUp

  20. #60
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    I don't think that "giving up the line" has anything to do with a lack of work ethic - it has to do with understanding that the body has limits and reliazing that judgement and physical ability begins to fade as the body starts to fatiguie and dehydrate. Often the adrenlin rush of firefighting can mask the fatigue, and the reality is tired firefighters WILL make bad decisions and will not have the physical reserves necessary to get themselves out of life threatening situations unless they rehab EARLY (and I'm talking after 15-20 minutes- even earlier in some extreme heat/humidity conditions, like we deal with here every summer) of streneous physical labor.

    This is where the macho crap kicks in ... and quite simply, there tired, dehydrated firefighters become a danger to themselves and others. Rehabbing early in not an option .. it's a neccesity. Period.

    Just my thoughts.

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