1. #51
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    Here is another concept, if you need bunkers and a hood to make a fire the truck guys aren't doing their job.

    Ventilate like you are in an old rubber coat with no mask.

    Their have been advancements that I like our gear is put together better it is far harder to get real steam burns like it was with my first coat, and I wouldn't go back to the old fireball gloves even if that was the only thing issued.

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    Work ethic really has nothing to do with wearing the proper protective equipment. If you equate work ethic with wearing pull up boots, a long coat and no SCBA then you logic is totally flawed. You can only never have to give up the line on an interior firefight if you don't wear or use your SCBA. If you use SCBA eventually the low air alarm will sound and you will have to leave to get a new bottle. If you don't wear SCBA that doesn't happen of course. Although smoke inhalation, and the introduction of every other chemical, gas and particulant matter that is floating around in that fire is being taken in on every breath as well as the danger of breathing in super heated air. Remember they may not kill you right away but the evidence is clear that cancers and other maladies that don't show up for decades are caused by the by-products.

    So call me a sissy, or a sell-out, tell me I don't know anything about firefighting, tell me I haven't been to as many fires as you, and I'll tell you that I'll visit you in the burn ward, or the hyberbaric chamber, or the cancer ward. As for me I have been there with the long coats and pull up boots, with no hoods and limited use of SCBA and NO Thank You I won't go back to that.

    Those of you that prefer the pull up boots, long coats and no SCBA approach to firefighting must not have much of an argument to support that since it really didn't take long for the personal attacks to start on those of us that disagree.

    Have a nice day, I know I am going to.

    FyredUp
    Last edited by FyredUp; 05-21-2005 at 10:38 AM.

  3. #53
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    Since I started, we have had full bunkers. The only 3/4 boots and long coat belonged to the Chief. We didnt have hoods, but have for about the last 15 years. Weve always had SCBA, but I can recall a time when it was only used on structure fires. Now you are expected to use it an all fires. If you dont, expect a write up.

    As for rehab, our county has a one bottle rule. Probably a good idea, as in the summer it can get quite nasty here. Not so much the heat but the humidity. Its brutal. We even do rehab on large scale EMS incidents and MVC's with extended extrication. With our county wide automatic mutual aid, we have the resources to do this. A lot of areas dont.

    As for this "macho argument", all I am going to say is my number one goal is to make it home to my family at the end of every shift. I would like to be around to enjoy my grand children someday. And I dont mean from a bed in a nursing home or Hospice.

    Ive been to several FD funerals, for men who had a lot of living yet to do. Ive looked into the eyes of young children who no longer have a father. Ive witnessed the tears of the widows. I'd rather not go through that again.

    For those of you who mock those of us that use full PPE, SCBA and do rehab, go ahead, enjoy yourselves. Just take a moment sometime to think of the hearts you'll break when your macho additude bites you in the arse.
    Last edited by Dave1983; 05-21-2005 at 06:35 PM.
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    Originally posted by Dave1983
    Since I started, we have had full bunkers. The only 3/4 boots and long coat belonged to the Chief. We didnt have hoods, but have for about the last 15 years. Weve always had SCBA, but I can recall a time when it was only used on structure fires. Now you are expected to use it an all fires. If you dont, expect a write up.

    As for rehab, our county has a one bottle rule. Probably a good idea, as in the summer it can get quite nasty here. Not so much the heat but the humidity. Its brutal. We even do rehab on large scale EMS incidents and MVC's with extended extrication. With our county wide automatic mutual aid, we have the resources to do this. A lot of areas dont.

    As for this "macho argument", all I am going to say is my number one goal is to make it home to my family at the end of every shift. I would like to be around to enjoy my grand children someday. And I dont mean from a bed in a nursing home or Hospice.

    Ive been to several FD funerals, for men who had a lot of living yet to do. Ive looked into the eyes of young children who no longer have a father. Ive witnessed the tears of the widows. I'd rather not go through that again.

    For those of you who mock those of us that use full PPE, SCBA and do rehab, go ahead, enjoy yourselves. Just take a moment sometime to think of the hearts you'll break when your macho additude bites you in the arse.
    As my Brother hfd66truck is fond of saying....

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    Well said, Dave........
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    I second that.

    I guess our grizzled old veteran from NJ doesn't want to play anymore.

  7. #57
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    Work ethic. Be dammed if I am going to give up the line if the jobs not done. Believe it or not people take great pride in their work and like to see things through
    Fyred Up,

    Do you see anything in this quote that advocates not wearing proper protective equipment as mandated by department standards.

    Before you start preaching about my logic, please read the post.

    I am in the opinion you should have a choice. For most of the incidents I see or work at 3/4 boots would work just fine.
    Again nowhere do you see that I advocate not wearing department required protective gear. This was just an observation.

    My last post was in reply that some people that I have come across lately are all to willing to give up the line because they are "tired" or cant hang. Usally this is only after 5 or 10 minutes worth of work. I am not preaching machoism or idolship. I believe in working till the jobs' done.

    Just for general info, because I am an officer I DO where all of my department mandated gear and follow SCBA protacol as to set the proper example. I am not willing to let members get hurt by my example and or stupidity.
    Last edited by CaptainS; 05-22-2005 at 02:14 PM.

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    Originally posted by LaFireEducator
    Guess I'll just have to put myself into the sissy-boy catagory ...

    I believe in mandatory SCBA use at all structure, vehicle AND trash ... yes TRASH fires.

    I beleive in mandatory rehab policies.

    I beleive in "giving up the line" to fresh crews while you rehab so you will be ready to take the line back when they are physically beat.

    I don't beleive in the macho indestrucable firefighter myths.

    And yes, I do beleive that 3/4 booots and long coats have no place in todays fire service.

    .... Guess I'll just take my girlie-boy attitude and end this post.

    AMEN BROTHER.. I feel the same way exactly. I would rather rehab early so that the fire gets extinguished, rather than over-extend myself and create a patient for my fellow medics. ( paid paramedic and volunteer deputy fire chief ). It also means my firefighting brothers/sisters and I get home safely at the end of each and every run.

    LAFireEducator, AMEN. AMEN AMEN...
    Jason.
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    Goalies are the best btw :P

  9. #59
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    CaptainS...

    The simple fact is that you will have to be relieved at some point during a firefight unless you are NOT wearing full PPE, to include SCBA. At times it is not possible to complete the task without being relieved and getting a new bottle.

    I also believe in working until the job is done or I am relieved at my position. Bailing because of some imaginary time constraint or after 5 or 10 minutes or because you think you need to because you are tired are usually inappropriate. Proper rehab and 2 bottle rules make complete sense. Why work until you are ready to drop? Recovery from that state usually takes far longer than doing a 2 bottle rehab.

    3/4 boots do not offer even close to the protection of bunkers. I would not want to go interior with a FF wearing 3/4 boots if I was in bunkers. They are not protected to the same level as I am and will not be able to go where I can. Furthermore, think of what goes on in the area that is not covered when you wear pull up boots and a long coat. Besides waste removal there are also recreational activities that occur within that region. I would prefer they all be protected and continue to function unihibited by burn injuries.

    Have a nice day.

    FyredUp

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    I don't think that "giving up the line" has anything to do with a lack of work ethic - it has to do with understanding that the body has limits and reliazing that judgement and physical ability begins to fade as the body starts to fatiguie and dehydrate. Often the adrenlin rush of firefighting can mask the fatigue, and the reality is tired firefighters WILL make bad decisions and will not have the physical reserves necessary to get themselves out of life threatening situations unless they rehab EARLY (and I'm talking after 15-20 minutes- even earlier in some extreme heat/humidity conditions, like we deal with here every summer) of streneous physical labor.

    This is where the macho crap kicks in ... and quite simply, there tired, dehydrated firefighters become a danger to themselves and others. Rehabbing early in not an option .. it's a neccesity. Period.

    Just my thoughts.

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    To ChicagoFF:

    Just a bit of info for you to chew on while you try to weigh the advantages/disadvantages to boots & 3/4 coats vs. full bunkers...

    My FD is in the process of creating our own bunker specs as we get ready to go to bid on new bunkers for the entire FD (grant money). I'm heading up the committee (yeah yeah, who cares) that's doing the research into what we want in our specs, as well as looking at the diff. manufacturers and what they have to offer.

    Currenly Globe (they also manufacture Cairns) is offering a new line of bunkers called the G-Xtreme. In my 18+ years in the fire service, they are by far THE MOST comfortable and ergonomic bunkers I have ever tried on. That's right, I've only tried them on at this point. Essentially it was a fit test type of thing. Lion Apparel is manufacturing a line of their Janesville bunkers called the V-Force. They're very comparable to the Globe G-Xtreme bunkers as far as roominess and ergonomics go. Morning Prides bunkers were impressive where ergonomics are concerned as well.

    Currenly we're in Globe GX-7's, and while they're incredibly good bunkers, we would like to be in bunkers that offer us even more mobility/ergonomics. Essentially, like you mentioned/questioned, they restrict some of your movement. Coat rise when lifting your arms over your head is also a concern for short coat (32"-35" rise) wearers (we are) because at times the bottom hem on the back of your coat can get pulled up into the belt strap of your SCBA. I guess if you don't use your SCBA belt strap, that probably wouldn't be much of an issue.

    While I haven't had on a 3/4 coat and pull-up boots in a long, long time, I promise you that the ergonomics of the bunkers I mentioned above far, far exceeds the ergonomics of any 3/4 coat and pull-up boots I've ever worn. Just the difference between our GX-7's and those new models of bunkers was quite impressive.

    Obviously body heating issues are going to be different between the two, as has been delved into quite a bit already in this thread by others. The big difference for me though is the thermal protection issue, and that's where the protection offered by bunkers just greatly exceeds that of 3/4 coats and pull-up boots. I work in a dept (bragging here?) that has a reputation for being very aggressive on structure fires. However, we could not be anywhere nearly as aggressive as we are if we didn't have the thermal protection that is offered by our current bunkers. Protecting/saving live's and property conservation... that's usually in the first line or two of most FD's mission statements. My belief is bunkers allow us to go further and deeper in order to do our jobs, hopefully allowing us to save more property and more lives.

    Just as an aside, I have worn leather bunker boots in the past, and they're incredibly light and comfortable, though a bit spendy (FD budgets and all that hoopla). You might want to put a bug in someone's ear that's makin' the decision's regarding what Chicago FD is going to do, and suggest allowin' the guys to try out leather boots if the dept does indeed go to wearing bunkers.

    Hope that gives ya some useful info!

    For those that don't believe SCBA's should be used all the time, take a peek here:

    http://www.ergometricsonline.com/markNoble/play.cfm

    Click the red link at the top of the page to watch the 18 minute video. You'll need Windows Media Player or an equivalent to view the video.

    We can't always be worried about cancer or disease, otherwise we'll just be mentally bound up no-good-for-nothings. However, our own protection and self-preservation is in our own hands. Wisdom brothers, and not machismo attitudes, is the clue here. I don't know about the rest of you, but after I retire from this career I plan on spending the rest of my life with family, and continuing to serve people who desperately need help. I don't want cancer or disease to cut short those opportunities if I can help it.

    One more note, and I don't remember where I heard this from, but national studies have shown that those that choose our line of work die, on average, 10 years earlier than the rest of the general population. Watch the Mark Noble video above and I think you'll have a clue as to why.

    I'll keep wearing my SCBA all the time, thank you very much! Call me a pansy, a sissy, or whatever you want. Life is precious and I don't plan on wasting it... there's too much good to be done with it.

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    I wonder why there are not too many old timers left to share their stories about the days of "leather lids and leather lungs"...

    Another thing I have noticed is that many of the "muchomacho rehab and bunkers are for pussies" crowd come from colder weather climates and have no problem wearing full bunkers when it's freaking cold outside!

    Let's face it.. the difference between wearing the 3/4 boot and bunker pants is just about 12 inches of material and thermal protection. The 3/4 boots only offer protection if you wear them properly... honestly, how many of you who do wear them have the rolled down to bunker boot height?

    Check your EMS books about assessing burn injuries and the "rules of 9's"... you will see that your "manhood" is listed as 1% of the surface of the body. I don't know about you "mach macho men", but Mrs. Gonz would like me to keep that 1% protected (yes, even after 26 years of marriage!)and that's another reason for the bunkers!

    The coat, whether it is 3/4's length or 32" to 35" long is made of the same material and thermal linings.

    Call me a "pussy" if you want... but this "cheshire cat" plans on smiling long after he's disappeared from the firehouse in retirement!*

    * For those who don't understand this statement...refer to "Alice in Wonderland" for the reference!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    I think the reason for that is that they DO remember those days.

    Although I actively fought fire in a volunteer FD, in the early days, traditions like stretching the first line w/no SCBA and sucking air off the floor were there. In retrospect, it is a wonder that no one was killed.

    Change for change sake is usually not good. Change because research has shown how dangerous these actions are is good. Change because equipment has continued to improve faster than we care to admit is good. Change because there are fire service professionals who develop techniques to fight fire just as efficiently, with less risk to our personal health and safety is good.

    I notice that the mutt who mouthed off about the '70's has disappeared. I, for one, resent being told that if I am not willing to jeopardize my health, then I am less of a fire fighter than reckless cowboy who has a Backdraft mentality. I was there in the '70's dirtball, and I am glad that things have changed for the better.

    For the "I'll never give up the line" crowd, do you have four-hour SCBA? Do you run with supplied air? Or do you just talk out of your butt? The bottom line is you do whatever it is the IC tells you to do...including giving up your line. To do otherwise flies in the face of the discipline the fire service demands to do the job properly.

    Oh yeah. One more thing...

    ...you will see that your "manhood" is listed as 1% of the surface of the body.
    Thanks for reminding me. Is that a slam against those with a Gaelic heritage?

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    I had a guy on my group (long retired) who was as Irish as Paddy O'Grady's pig. In reference to his "manhood" he would say "it may be small, but my wife says it's cute!"

    No slam intended there, George!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
    I had a guy on my group (long retired) who was as Irish as Paddy O'Grady's pig. In reference to his "manhood" he would say "it may be small, but my wife says it's cute!"

    No slam intended there, George!

    What are you doin talking with another guy about his manhood Capt. Is there something about you we don't know sir.. LOL


    But if you look at a burn chart, it is also written that if you burn that 1%, even with a first degree burn, you should be treated at a burn center. Not unlike a 1st degree burn elsewhere.

    *shivers at the thought of a 1st degree burn there*

    stay safe..

    Jason
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    Goalies are the best btw :P

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    Default When Re-hab attacks

    I have nothing against rehab. I do have something against certain firefighters that use rehab as an excuse to be plain old lazy. I am blessed to be with people that work hard and keep working. If we need a breather we take one. We dont hang around getting our B.P.'s checked and watch everyone else do the work. We dont get fires each and every day, but we do get them. We get them is the dead of winter and in the heat and humidity of our Chicago summers. Rehab is NOT a "one size fits all" proposition. Now get to work.
    Last edited by MIKEYLIKESIT; 05-23-2005 at 02:55 PM.
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    "We can go faster and deeper with full gear".Mebbe so.I started my career in 3/4s and a long coat.I don't remember fires then being any cooler than fires now.But a couple items of note has changed,radically and for the worst.One is the increase in synthetic materials.The other is the drastic reduction of staffing and the loss of good truck work.Now before you trucky puffies get all horned up:There are still places where good truck work is done.There are twice as many more where it is a lost art.The reason we were so successful in the old ensemble was the truckies got it opened up quick,there wasn't as much plastic "gas"in the room and the gear didn't beat the water out of you.And the old guy to the "new"guy mentoring was different.A lot more hands on fire training was possible since everything around you was on fire.Yeah,I'm talking about the 70's and the eighties.Before the cell phone,before the ADT in every building.Being down on Commercial St. in Portland on a third or greater alarm about every Friday night.Urban renewal,building by building.Rehab was an afterthought then,but you didn't need it as bad because you didn't get as heat stressed.'Course in the winter it was a different story,you froze your butt off.So to tell me you can't fight fire in the old stuff:BULL! But I also agree that with todays staffing and mind sets,you're definitely safer in the full gear.It will be interesting to see how Boston's new policy works out,I think they will be able to validate some pretty interesting data.Only time will tell. T.C.

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    Why would you not want the protection of full bunker gear and a hood? You don't know what you're going to sometimes. It could be a meth lab for all you know, or maybe your making entrance into what you think is the kitchen but, it turns out to be a part of a garage with acetylene and oxygen tanks. If you feel like you can't hack it in full gear, get in the gym and on the track. If you don't want to take the time to improve on the physical part of your profession, go set up rehab and give me some gatorade.

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    Default Re: When Re-hab attacks

    Originally posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    I have nothing against rehab. I do have something against certain firefighters that use rehab as an excuse to be plain old lazy. I am blessed to be with people that work hard and keep working. If we need a breather we take one. We dont hang around getting our B.P.'s checked and watch everyone else do the work. We dont get fires each and every day, but we do get them. We get them is the dead of winter and in the heat and humidity of our Chicago summers. Rehab is NOT a "one size fits all" proposition. Now get to work.
    Not for nuthin' Mikey, but this is more of a command and leadership problem than it is a rehab problem.

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    Jake,For some reason you think we didn't have Oxy-aceteylene hazards in the 3/4 days?Probably weren't as many Meth labs but there were plenty of other hazards.My point was,in those days that WAS your PPE.That's as good as it got.And THERE WERE LESS HEAT RELATED INJURIES.And I believe,right or wrong,that generation of FF was more aware of their surroundings.Now I started my career on 3/4s and long coat,but I DID have air:A Scott 1.And I still have days I'd rather have my old ensemble over the new.And as far as physical conditioning:I'm not in the shape I was at 25 but I can outdo a majority of my younger counterparts.And if YOU believe you can do at half a century plus what you do in your twenties,EVEN WITH PHYSICAL CONDITIONING,I believe you're in for a bit of a shock.Study our history,we went from SS to fog and now back again.Study injury and loss(Important for those of us in safety)and tell me again how great bunkers are.Like EVERYTHING in the Fire service,there is a trade off.Go deeper into harms way and survive?You know you can,But: Is it smart to do so,does the gain outweigh the risk,and if no life hazard exists did you ACTUALLY gain anything? I cannot answer these questions for YOU,but hopefully they will cause you to reflect on a process we ALL need to get better at: RISK MANAGEMENT.It's kinda funny,the more we evolve the more things stay the same.In two hundred years what do we ACTUALLY do different than the bucket brigades of our forefathers?We just use bigger "buckets". Think about it,How far off am I? T.C.

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    How far off am I?
    About as far as you can be. Your "argument" is as rdiculous as it is insulting.

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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    About as far as you can be. Your "argument" is as rdiculous as it is insulting.
    So somebody disagrees with you on an issue, states his opinions in a non insulating way, and you respond with that? Well then again, you are a cop.

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    Originally posted by erics99


    So somebody disagrees with you on an issue, states his opinions in a non insulating way, and you respond with that? Well then again, you are a cop.
    Look junior, being a (retired) cop has nothing to do with it. What is non-insulting about comparing a progressive modern fire service to a friggin' 19th centruy bucket brigade? It is a blatant insult in order to maintain some stupid macho attitude. And besides, he asked the question, not me.

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    Rescue101, I'm all for being aware of your surroundings and risk management. I understand your argument about,"being able to go deeper" when there is nothing to save. We as firefighters do that stupid stuff all of the time, and it needs to stop. But, bunker gear gives the protection you need when you end up in a place you shouldn't have gone to begin with. No one catches fire everyday or so anymore. So, we've got alot of eager firefighters without that oldhead experience just ready to get in there and get after it. This job is notorious from learning from our mistakes, rather than figuring out what's going to happen beforehand. It sounds scary, but bunker gear gives you the opportunity to learn from mistakes a little safer. You can put it all in books and be able to quote all of your firefighting manuals, but the fireground is where you become a firefighter.

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    Okay, if your FD let's you wear PPE that is non-compliant with NFPA and you are comfortable with that super and good for you. However, I choose the right to tell you to get the Hell off of the line I am taking interior because I don't want you bailing out on me when I can stay longer and safer than you can. I understand knowing your environment, I understand flame and heat spread, I know when it is time to leave and I am comfortable doing that in full PPE including an SCBA.

    The comments about how little firefighting has actually progressed are frightening and ridiculous if you actually believe that Rescue101. If you compare today's firefighting with the bucket brigades and seriously think that is valid I thank God you are not on my fire department and certainly not on my village board that controls our money. We certainly have better protective clothing than the bucket brigade days (Oh wait, that's a negative in your mind). We have engine companies that can supply more water, more reliably, and more quickly than any bucket brigade could dream of, with 1/100 of the manpower. Let alone add Class A foam, Cafs, or Class B foam with the mere flip of a switch. We have better hose, nozzles and appliances than ever before in the history of firefighting. How about more technology? Thermal imaging cameras have made overhaul and search and rescue dramatically easier. CO meters let us know when even the die hard no mask crowd can safely be inside the building. Yepper, I guess you are right, we are no farther ahead than the bucket brigades. I guess I should have asked FEMA for 1500 buckets instead of a 1500 gpm pumper this time.

    I am a grizzled old timer myself, I have been around since 1977 and I would buy my own bunker pants if my FD ever decided to change back to long coats and pull up boots.

    FyredUp

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