1. #76
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    Default In defense of Rescue 101... and George (again!)

    Tim does wear his PPE. He has more time on the line than many of you "take the mask off for a sec to get a little black snot and impress the old guys".

    He just made reference to how history repeats itself. If you research a few of his posts, you will see that he is extremely safety concious and as an officer on his FD he has pulled peopel aside and reprimaneded them for doing stuipid things, like not waering their PPE.

    Erics99...

    You only seem to post whenever you see an opportunity to give George a shot. What's the matter... did he spank your pee pee when he was a cop?
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    but this "cheshire cat" plans on smiling long after he's disappeared from the firehouse in retirement!*
    I am with you on this on e Gonzo.
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    Get your attention did I?If any of you had bothered to look two posts back instead of just one,you would see that I'm ACTUALLY in favor of our modern gear.And Gonzo, who takes the time to read the WHOLE post gets the concept.George,I know you come from a real progressive FD.But you know what?I bet you still got "parking lots"even with ALL that modern equipment,just like the "old" days.Don't try to overread my intentions.Sometimes I'll overstate someting to stimulate your thoughts.Probably a poor choice of analogy,but we're still killing over 100 FF's a year:Not acceptable! We did'nt/don't seem to learn lessons from history as well as we could.The fact you STRONGLY disagree with my thinking will not cause me to lose much sleep.I greatly favor your opinions but if we happen to disagree from time to time and someone else benefits from our disagreement;Where's the harm? Yeah,sometimes I go a bit overboard.I've been doing this job in a reasonably busy outfit/outfits for the better part of 37 plus years,I've still got all my hide,fingers.toes and appendages so I guess I'm not all that "backwards/backwoods". I'm sure we'll have other disagreements,but we also come from different areas. I'm up for it are you? And Fyred nice oratory,well stated! But lighten up a little,I'm not really the bad guy.Not everybody in the country has A/B/cafs 1500 pumps et al.Some still do it with a Barton American 500 gpm.Jake,your second post pretty well sums it up.But it's also where I was trying to lead you.Somewhere along the line,we've lost some of the go/no go skills that were prevalent in the heavy fire days.And protecting our personnel has got to be job 1. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 05-25-2005 at 09:20 AM.

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    how can young guys in this profession be reasonably expected to respect "more experienced" guys when all your experience has taught you is how to sit around an engine house (or an internet chatroom) and pound your chest about "how it used to be" when everything was on fire all the time, and even the women and children were more manly and had thicker mustaches. if todays firemen are "less aware", "less capable" of truck work and not as plain old good at fighting fires, it's your fault, for choosing to sit around thedayroom table telling stories with the other old fireliars in between crossword puzzles and card games, when you should have been teaching the fng's what you know.

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    Originally posted by chingon
    how can young guys in this profession be reasonably expected to respect "more experienced" guys when all your experience has taught you is how to sit around an engine house (or an internet chatroom) and pound your chest about "how it used to be" when everything was on fire all the time, and even the women and children were more manly and had thicker mustaches. if todays firemen are "less aware", "less capable" of truck work and not as plain old good at fighting fires, it's your fault, for choosing to sit around thedayroom table telling stories with the other old fireliars in between crossword puzzles and card games, when you should have been teaching the fng's what you know.



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    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    And Maybe,just maybe,your fault for not listening.If you are one of the fortunate to have what I suggest might be weak;bully for you! I travel a bit,and make observations as I go.Everyday is a learning day,and by observing others operations I learn what I want to do to improve ops,and also to learn what DOESN'T work.Truck companies USED to be 6-7 men strong,now many are 2-3.Doesn't take a genius to see how their operations could be affected. I've fought fires in bldgs with good truck work(easy advance/quick knockdown)and I've been in bldgs with poor/no truck work(get the snot beat out of you). Didn't require a PHD to explain to me which is better or how I'm going to do that job if required.You can learn a lot from an old cribbage playing "fireliar" but only if you are inclined to do so.I've got several young fire officers in my outfit that choose to watch closely and work with the "seasoned" personnel.I have several more with attitude problems and learning resistance. Care to guess who advances and who doesn't? Not by my hand,but it seems that those with resistance are meeting with the board of officers more than the "workers".And not about career advancement.So the choice is yours,choose wisely. T.C.

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    Originally posted by Rescue101
    And Maybe,just maybe,your fault for not listening.If you are one of the fortunate to have what I suggest might be weak;bully for you! I travel a bit,and make observations as I go.Everyday is a learning day,and by observing others operations I learn what I want to do to improve ops,and also to learn what DOESN'T work.Truck companies USED to be 6-7 men strong,now many are 2-3.Doesn't take a genius to see how their operations could be affected. I've fought fires in bldgs with good truck work(easy advance/quick knockdown)and I've been in bldgs with poor/no truck work(get the snot beat out of you). Didn't require a PHD to explain to me which is better or how I'm going to do that job if required.You can learn a lot from an old cribbage playing "fireliar" but only if you are inclined to do so.I've got several young fire officers in my outfit that choose to watch closely and work with the "seasoned" personnel.I have several more with attitude problems and learning resistance. Care to guess who advances and who doesn't? Not by my hand,but it seems that those with resistance are meeting with the board of officers more than the "workers".And not about career advancement.So the choice is yours,choose wisely. T.C.
    Your chest-beating is getting old quickly. Your other argument (about "Sometimes I'll overstate someting to stimulate your thoughts.") is bogus.

    It would take exactly one time of hearing your insulting and condescending comments about bucket brigades and the good ol' days to write you off as a blowhard. The sad thing about that is you're not.

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    George,Sorry to once again offend you.Apparently my grasp of the English language is not what it used to be.I take the safety and welfare of our personnel VERY seriously.And I'm not "chest beating".If you have doubts ask some of them.And so as not to further risk your ire,I won't even approach the fact that various areas of the country are poor with less than new equipment.Some not too far from us.Meeting all standards is a wonderful thing,something to be proud of.But the bottom line is many simply do not have enough funding to do so, be that right wrong or indifferent. T.C.

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    Originally posted by Rescue101
    George,Sorry to once again offend you.Apparently my grasp of the English language is not what it used to be.I take the safety and welfare of our personnel VERY seriously.And I'm not "chest beating".If you have doubts ask some of them.And so as not to further risk your ire,I won't even approach the fact that various areas of the country are poor with less than new equipment.Some not too far from us.Meeting all standards is a wonderful thing,something to be proud of.But the bottom line is many simply do not have enough funding to do so, be that right wrong or indifferent. T.C.
    You are trying to dig yourself out of a hole...unsuccesfully.

    The things of which you spoke have little to nothing to do with money. You spoke of 6-7 men truck companies. Where? When? Not here, bro. Ever.

    You didn't speak of equipment or standards or anything else. You spoke of "We were better in the old days than you are today". That is an ignorant statement.

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    Portland Me to name one.Not that way today,cut to the bone.I think a certain Lt. named Don Whitney could verify this but I'll do a little research and tell you the company and when.And since when do men and equipment NOT equate into money? T.C.

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    Originally posted by Rescue101
    Portland Me to name one.Not that way today,cut to the bone.I think a certain Lt. named Don Whitney could verify this but I'll do a little research and tell you the company and when.And since when do men and equipment NOT equate into money? T.C.
    They certainly do. But that only goes to defeat your argument. 6-7 men in a truck co. may have happened in Portland, ME, but they haven't happened here in virtually all FD's ever.

    Wouldn't you agree that 6-7 men on a truck co. is an expensive proposition, only afforded by the most financially gifted FD's? That shows that ME is very rich and NJ is not.

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    Rescue101...

    And Fyred nice oratory,well stated! But lighten up a little,I'm not really the bad guy.Not everybody in the country has A/B/cafs 1500 pumps et al.Some still do it with a Barton American 500 gpm.Jake,your second post pretty well sums it up.But it's also where I was trying to lead you.Somewhere along the line,we've lost some of the go/no go skills that were prevalent in the heavy fire days.And protecting our personnel has got to be job 1. T.C.
    Say what you mean and stop using asides and euphenisms and misunderstanding won't occur.

    I know full well many FD's don't have A/B/Cafs and 1500 pumps. We don't, but we utilize class A foam and class B foam with eductors and inline Scotty Systems set-ups. We use the technology the best we can with what we have. We have a 1992 1000 gpm front mount pumper and a 1974 Mack CF 1250 pumper. We do not let the age of our vehicles stop us from making them the best they can be. We use 2, 3 and 5 inch hose and actually could flow more water than our neighbors could with their 1500 and bigger pumps because they thought 2 1/2 was big enough hose for supply. They recently saw the light and switched to 4 inch hose so they are at least getting better.

    It was not that long ago, roughly 15 years a go that we had a 1960 Barton 500 front mount, and a 1950 Barton 500 front mount, and a 1949 Mack tanker. But you know what? We still set them up with 3 inch hose for supply and 1 3/4 inch hose for attack. We didn't allow the age of the vehicles to stop us from using what ever other technology was available to make us better.

    As far as turn-outs and SCBA we have NFPA compliant ensembles from head to toe for every single one of our firefighters. We have never skimped on turn-outs and continue to invest routinely for replacement before it gets ragged.

    We are far from a rich area or department but we are none the less, progressive, agressive and safe and extremely conscious of the need for training including live fire when ever we can.

    Unfortunately for the skills of firefighters there are not as many fires today as in the past. Realize that that is good for whom we protect and bad for us as technicians of firefighting. Training and experienced FF's must be used to supplement the lack of experience of this new generation of FF's they will eventually learn what we know but the learning curve may be longer due to the nature of the business these days.

    FyredUp

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    George,had to do a little backtracing.I remembered from the 70's Portland having a "commercial" box assignment of 6 on trucks.Well,they did and didn't.The TRUCK assignment was 4 and 4 on the Engine. But on a COMMERCIAL box the Rescue responded and worked with the truck on FE and opening up.So my memory while flawed,had the numbers right but it was TWO companies.90% of the time we went in on MA it was all commercial stuff.And like almost anywhere,that had a "heavier"assignment.But those guys were good and still are.You guys win,I know when I'm beat.I'm going back to my hole(I prefer to call it a cave). T.C.

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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI

    It would take exactly one time of hearing your insulting and condescending comments about bucket brigades and the good ol' days to write you off as a blowhard. The sad thing about that is you're not.
    Well, if that isn't like the pot calling the kettle black!!!!
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    I guess maybe its just because I'm one of the young'ns that never wore 3/4 turnouts, but given the nature of the calls we go to nowadays...I can't imagine entering a burning structure, or working an MVA extrication, and not have any bloodborne pathogen protection or any other of the other supreme protective qualities full turnouts offer that have been listed previously. It amazes me a city the size of Chicago, and now some of the others that were mentioned (which surprised me even more) have not gotten into the 21st Century yet.

    But wait I forgot...we are talking about a department whose motto is "1XX years of tradition..unimpeded by progress". That's the problem with the modern fire service...there are those too attached to tradition and this unwillingness to change keeps them from progressing...no wonder so many departments are seeing stations closed or the move from career to combination/volunteer. Its pretty hard to justify your existence when you don't find ways to reinvent yourself and prove your worth when looked at as a line item on a municipal budget sheet.

    Woo! Have fun with that!

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    Originally posted by firenresq77


    Well, if that isn't like the pot calling the kettle black!!!!
    Go back and find one of my 4500 posts in which I advocated that the "good ol' days" were better and that today's FF weren't as good as the leatherlungs of yesteryear. Find one post.

    Then, after realizing how ridiculous and argumentative your post was, be quiet.

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    Woo! Have fun with that!
    No, Jacob, I can't have fun with that. You hit it right on the head.

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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    Go back and find one of my 4500 posts in which I advocated that the "good ol' days" were better and that today's FF weren't as good as the leatherlungs of yesteryear. Find one post.

    Then, after realizing how ridiculous and argumentative your post was, be quiet.
    First of all it was a joke....... 2nd, I never said you have made ANY of those comments...... It was the whole "insulting and condescending comments" thing........ Get over yourself..... It was actually somewhat of a compliment, George......
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    Wow, after seven pages of replies, no one (aside from the few who cited the Boston FD situation and were never really answered) can come up with concrete numbers for how many burn injuries there are in areas that bunkers would have prevented vs. the increase in heat related injuries and deaths due to bunkers. I was asking because I was looking for a solid argument for change. Instead, all you get is alot of hysterical screeching about how safe bunkers are, how deep you can push into a fire in bunkers and how you are macho and stupid you are if you won't give up your line or question rehab proceedures (which we don't have - thank god). As far as I know, we haven't had any serious leg burns in Chicago in a couple of years. It's just not that common. Last day my engine had three good, working structure fires. There was no rehab, no one gave up a line and if you pushed any deeper into the fire than us - you'd be on the back porch. With all the talk of how deep you can push, everyone on here must be doing tons of large factory fires - otherwise, just crawl in and put it out! Other than citing NFPA standards no one has come up with a good reason to switch. Just cause NFPA says it doesn't make it right!

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    Go read the seven pages again. You just didn't get the answer you wanted. Here's three things I know for sure.

    1. Bunkers are safer than 3/4 boots
    2. If you were interested in this at all, you would go to www.bfrl.nist.gov and research the plethora of documents on their site into valid scientific research that backs up #1.
    3. Bitch, moan and complain all you want. This time next year, you will be in bunkers.

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    Originally posted by ChicagoFF
    Last day my engine had three good, working structure fires. There was no rehab, no one gave up a line and if you pushed any deeper into the fire than us - you'd be on the back porch.

    Just curious, but what was the temp/humidity that day in the fine city of Chicago?
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    Default CFD 4TH...

    I dont really have any love of bunker pants. They are what I am required to wear on structure fires, so I do. They are great in the winter. Having said that, there is a Chicago firefighter that suffered a serious knee burn last year that required skin grafts. He was kneeling and before he knew what happend he was injured. He is on a busy (fire) engine company in the 5th District. Bunker pants probably would have prevented that injury. He was laid up for several months.
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    Originally posted by ChicagoFF
    Other than citing NFPA standards no one has come up with a good reason to switch. Just cause NFPA says it doesn't make it right!
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI

    3. Bitch, moan and complain all you want. This time next year, you will be in bunkers.

    Ahhhhhh, I love the harsh truth. If I remember correctly from the article in Fire Chief, the Commissioner laid down two new PPE options:

    1. Wear turnouts.
    2. Work elsewhere.


    If you don't like em that much, I suggest you choose option 2. And If you're not already looking for another job, I guess bunkers aren't really that bad, are they?
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

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    Other than citing NFPA standards no one has come up with a good reason to switch. Just cause NFPA says it doesn't make it right!
    ChicagoFF...

    Perhaps in an abstract world that may be true. But quite simply a lawyer, and not even a very good one, will kick your FD's and city's *** in court if you don't have a valid and documentable reason for not following NFPA. And, it needs to be more than anecdotal evidence of heat stress related injuries. Furthermore, compliance with NFPA doesn't eliminate the chance of lawsuits if an SOG is not in place to enforce the standard. An example would be an SOG that clearly defined when full PPE, to include SCBA, would be used. Of course to have any real teeth this SOG MUST be enforced by company officers.

    As a former Chief Officer I was not about to carry that burden of liability on an issue so easily identified, defined and clearly covered in a nationally recognized standard.

    Ahhhhhh, I love the harsh truth. If I remember correctly from the article in Fire Chief, the Commissioner laid down two new PPE options:
    This quote if true makes it clear that your Commissioner has decided it is time to take that burden off from himself too. As well as bring your protective clothing into the modern era.

    1. Bunkers are safer than 3/4 boots
    2. If you were interested in this at all, you would go to www.bfrl.nist.gov and research the plethora of documents on their site into valid scientific research that backs up #1.
    3. Bitch, moan and complain all you want. This time next year, you will be in bunkers.
    George, we may have disagreed on occassion in the past, but when you are right, you are right!

    Bunkers, been using them for 20 years. I have no intention of going backwards.

    FyredUp

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