1. #1
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    Default Hydraulics Classes Suck !!!!!!!

    Hydraulics class has been the hardest thing I've ever taken. The formula's aren't that hard it's the memorization of all 21 formulas , also all the conversions and then all the rules and what not and to know when and what problems or scenarios to use them on.
    Plus We are doing the whole hydraulics class in 4 days , yes 4 , 10 hour days thats so outragious . Maybe not to some but it's so hard to memorize all those equations within 3 days of study time and take the final the fourth day now I see why some people have taken the class 3 times.

    I was wondering if anyone has any tips or hints on how to help out with memorizeing all the gimics , or anything in general lol.

    Thanks alot its appreciated
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    Believe that hydraulics don't suck, but will have great benefit for you when you become a fire apparatus engineer.
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    Hydraulics only SUCK when you are draughting.

    Otherwise the objective is to PUMP.

    PS. At least now you know what Positive Pressure is all about, so when you hit pressure on the job, it will be easy to handle.

    Train hard, fight easy.
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    I was wondering if anyone has any tips or hints on how to help out with memorizeing all the gimics , or anything in general lol.
    A long time ago, a grizzled old pump operator whi had cut his teeth on rotary gear pumps, gave me the following rule of thumb, that I have never forgotten:

    Little fire=a little bit of water. Big fire=lots of water.

    I will get blasted for saying this, but that has never stopped me before.

    Understanding the theory behind delivering water to the fire scene will make you a better pump operator. It will also make it somewhat easier to assist with preplanning exercises.

    However, when there are flames through the roof, people jumping out of the windows and a Chief screaming over the radio, you are never, ever, ever going to be sitting there figuring out your pump pressure, your friction loss and your nozzle reaction using those formulas.

    Moral: Don't sweat this.

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    Exclamation

    Absolutely memorize your friction loss table!! Whether you are riding the back, on the pump, or riding Captain, anything can happen. The driver could freeze or become incapacitated and someone will need to help the guys inside. If you have your chart memorized and practice it until it is second nature, by the time the line is made up you will have the CORRECT pump pressure. I went through three different hydraulics classes taught by three different instructors. I passed all three, but it wasn't until the third that I grasped the concept really well. Do not shortcut on water supply, do it right and do it right the first time. Good luck on the test.

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    I suggest using the formulae as much as possible. Do as many problems as you can - then do some more. The more you use the formulae, the greater the chance to retain them (similar to Lamarck's Evolutionary Law of Use and Disuse - circa 1809).
    I suspect you have a textbook. If you are assigned the even numbered problems, for example, then also do the odd numbered problems.

    Many formulae are derivations of other formulae. Learn the fundamental formulae first - and know them stone cold. Formulae that are derivations or special cases of the fundamental formulae will come easily.

    BTW, I really don't believe the formulae are intended for the fireground in the heat of battle (as intimated by others). The formulae are for the station, where you prepare yourself and your department for various scenarios. This by no means denigrates the importance of learning the formulae.

    A 4 day class at 10 hours per day is intensive. Consider that this is no more time than a semester class in college - it is simply compressed. Your “real” learning will come AFTER you finish this class. If you don’t use the information for a long time, you will probably forget it (or at least use it clumsily). After class, put it practical use as soon as possible.

    Finally, don’t confuse “memorizing” with “learning”. But that’s another issue, for another time.

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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    A long time ago, a grizzled old pump operator whi had cut his teeth on rotary gear pumps, gave me the following rule of thumb, that I have never forgotten:

    Little fire=a little bit of water. Big fire=lots of water.

    I will get blasted for saying this, but that has never stopped me before.

    Understanding the theory behind delivering water to the fire scene will make you a better pump operator. It will also make it somewhat easier to assist with preplanning exercises.

    However, when there are flames through the roof, people jumping out of the windows and a Chief screaming over the radio, you are never, ever, ever going to be sitting there figuring out your pump pressure, your friction loss and your nozzle reaction using those formulas.

    Moral: Don't sweat this.
    Great BASIC advice! So true!
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    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    Ahhhh crap - this threads all wet!
    -I have learned people will forget what you said,
    -People will forget what you did,
    -But people will never forget how you made them feel!

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    What is "formulae" and what is "draughting"?

    Learning friction loss formulas will help you understand some concepts and enhance your problem solving skills on the fire ground when pumping water, but you wouldn't actually use the formulas on the fire ground. It will give you a good idea of what is possible and not possible to do with a fire engine and hose...

    90% of the time you will just pull tank-to-pump...crosslay #1...and throttle to a preestablished number.

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    Two tricks:
    1. I made up and laminated 'cheat sheets' for all preconnects on our trucks, at all flows. They are carried near the pump panels.
    2. Wax the panel or door next to the pump panel. Carry a dry erase marker. You can write (and, if needed calculate) on the panel, and erase it with a rag.

    Plus, I made laminated cards for all the engineers with the FL short formula on it - just in case we have 'the big one' and need longer hose lays.

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    Originally posted by Sleuth
    Two tricks:
    1. I made up and laminated 'cheat sheets' for all preconnects on our trucks, at all flows. They are carried near the pump panels.
    2. Wax the panel or door next to the pump panel. Carry a dry erase marker. You can write (and, if needed calculate) on the panel, and erase it with a rag.

    Plus, I made laminated cards for all the engineers with the FL short formula on it - just in case we have 'the big one' and need longer hose lays.

    IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT!!!

    Erase the word "Sharpie" from your vocabulary.

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    Why? (Note: I did not use the word "sharpie". Isn't that some breed of dog??)

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    A Sharpie is a permanent marker. It is the same type of marker that I chose to draw an elaborate, yet brilliant, diagram on the white board of an academy I was speaking at. Nobody laughed.

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    LMAO. They must have been impressed.

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    Well I failed lol. But its ok Im dissapopinted in myself I scored a 68 when I needed a 70. The instructors who I've known since I became a firefighter a year ago were awesome and they even admitted this is alot to absorb in 3 days.

    15 people were in the class only 2 failed but 11 of them had taken and failed hydraulics before. I guess this type of class this fast kills alot of people and the normal rate for people to pass is 2 - 3 times taking the class. I did awesome on the word problems and my equations , but I forgot the stupid little stuff.
    I accidentally put for the question " how much does 1 cubic foot of water wiegh ? " I put 8.35 lbs not thinking clearly when I know and knew it was 62.5 .

    Thats what screwed me was such easy things like that but hey I'm still very very young , and very hard working. So its just another step on my way up.

    Next week I start pump ops. and evoc .So I will be at the training center from 8am - 11pm 3 days next week and 8am - 5pm for the other 3 days we have class.

    Then after that week I take aerial ops. , then in a few months incident safety officer and then company officer classes. And also course delivery and design. All paid for by the county since Im a county volly.

    Anyways thanks for all the help guys it helps alot just alot of info to absord in 3 , 10 hour days , I'll ace it next time.
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    Man; you were so close, but you're absolutely right; you WILL pass it next time.
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    Originally posted by firepimp
    Well I failed lol. But its ok Im dissapopinted in myself I scored a 68 when I needed a 70. The instructors who I've known since I became a firefighter a year ago were awesome and they even admitted this is alot to absorb in 3 days.

    15 people were in the class only 2 failed but 11 of them had taken and failed hydraulics before. I guess this type of class this fast kills alot of people and the normal rate for people to pass is 2 - 3 times taking the class. I did awesome on the word problems and my equations , but I forgot the stupid little stuff.
    I accidentally put for the question " how much does 1 cubic foot of water wiegh ? " I put 8.35 lbs not thinking clearly when I know and knew it was 62.5 .

    Thats what screwed me was such easy things like that but hey I'm still very very young , and very hard working. So its just another step on my way up.

    Next week I start pump ops. and evoc .So I will be at the training center from 8am - 11pm 3 days next week and 8am - 5pm for the other 3 days we have class.

    Then after that week I take aerial ops. , then in a few months incident safety officer and then company officer classes. And also course delivery and design. All paid for by the county since Im a county volly.

    Anyways thanks for all the help guys it helps alot just alot of info to absord in 3 , 10 hour days , I'll ace it next time.
    You may have failed the test, but you DID learn something that you can use right now.

  18. #18
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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    A long time ago, a grizzled old pump operator whi had cut his teeth on rotary gear pumps, gave me the following rule of thumb, that I have never forgotten:

    Little fire=a little bit of water. Big fire=lots of water.

    I will get blasted for saying this, but that has never stopped me before.

    Understanding the theory behind delivering water to the fire scene will make you a better pump operator. It will also make it somewhat easier to assist with preplanning exercises.

    However, when there are flames through the roof, people jumping out of the windows and a Chief screaming over the radio, you are never, ever, ever going to be sitting there figuring out your pump pressure, your friction loss and your nozzle reaction using those formulas.

    Moral: Don't sweat this.
    Me Too, George.

    I have a slightly different method, I use the "Notch System". To use the Notch System, pull the pump throttle out ALL the way, then measure the length of the portion of the rod that will slide in and out of the panel wall and connector, should be at least 5 inches. File a notch in the rod at one inch intervals. Then when operating on a Fire, set the punp on the First Notch. When a Second Alarm is struck, jack it up to the next notch........ Third alarm, Third notch....... You get the idea. And, Y'all please forgive KiWi, His Computer has British Spellcheck on it, he really meant "Drafting"
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    Since there's such a high rate of people retaking the test( NOT failures, if you learned something useful you might have failed on paper only,but not in real life ) maybe it's the methods used, and not the students. Does anyone else see a pattern or is it just me ?
    Anyhow here's a rule of thumb for the firehouse Pump at 150..cook at 350...Good luck!

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    Originally posted by FireH2O
    BTW, I really don't believe the formulae are intended for the fireground in the heat of battle (as intimated by others). The formulae are for the station, where you prepare yourself and your department for various scenarios. This by no means denigrates the importance of learning the formulae.
    Exactly

    Cant help you with the class. Weve all been through it and its a pain in the butt. What you need to do after the class is look at your departments equipment and use what you learned in class to come up with you need to know on the fireground. On scene isnt the time to start running numbers through your head.

    When I started driving on a regular basis, I looked at what we carry, then came up with a pre-set group of figures which will cover pretty much anything I will find on a the fire ground. All of our engineers do this. Most carry little cards that they can glance at in a hurry.

    Of course, you can never plan for everything, but thats where knowing the formulas come into play.
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    firepimp,

    It’s not so bad failing the class, provided you learned something. You seem to have a good attitude. Keep at it.

    I agree with len1582. There is something fundamentally wrong with a class having such a high failure rate. What we need to know is whether this class is the ONLY hydraulics class or is it one step in a series (i.e., beginning, intermediate, advanced, etc.)? Also, are there any prerequisites for the class (i.e., algebra)?

    Any class that has a high failure rate should be examined, particularly one with a history of having a high failure rate. It’s not necessarily the instructor and not necessarily the students. The educational soundness of the course and the curriculum must be examined.

    Hydraulics is one of the few subject areas in the fire service that is more cerebral than physical. If one does not have a good command of math, particularly algebra, one will find hydraulics difficult.

    What I find troubling is that a passing score is 70%. For something as important as hydraulics, I would recommend a passing score of 95%. Take the course as often as needed to achieve the 95%. There are too many people (firefighters and the public) relying on the pump operator to do the job efficiently and correctly.

    A student that fails the course by missing one question (i.e., not knowing the value of the density of water) is not substantially different than the student who passes by one question (i.e., knowing the value of the density of water). While knowing the density of water is important in understanding hydraulics, it is of little importance in calculating fireground scenarios.

    I sincerely hope that whoever is responsible for this curriculum examines this high failure rate. It could be the instructors, the students, the course content and structure or any combination thereof.

    I would love to see the 21 formulae. firepimp, can you help me with this?

    BTW, kayakking, buy a dictionary. Both formulae and draughting are in it.

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    I discussed the reasons with tsome of the instuctors why is the class in such a short amount of time ?? Theyre response was if the class goes longer than 1 week alot of people can't take that much time off of work or they get burnt out so bad they just quit. My response to that was if someone wants it bad enough they'll do it. That's why our standards class went from 44 kids to 17 we wanted it the others didn't. But i can sympothize with people with jobs. The class is hard enough to go to class for 10 hours then go home and do homework and study what you've learned all night sleep then wake up bright and early and do it all again .

    Our class was supposed to run from mon. through fri. 8am to 5pm. Monday class was cancelled because no instructor for the class was able to teach it the instructors are also career firefighters and all that taught just got off shift at 8am and were a few minutes late to class , so while we sat there for a few I got on the board and drew out some scenarios and had the class help me figure them out together.

    The instrcutors were excellent , I couldn't ask for better one's I really couldn't. If 1 person had a problem We all did it over till we all understood. Our class ran from tues through friday 8am - 6pm or untill we covered the lesson plan.

    I wish I had a scanner to show you the formulas and such we had to memorize. That's really the hardest thing about the class , the equations are so easy to figure out once you learn how to work them. It's remembering all that you have learned in this short amount of time.

    Our grades were worked out like this we took 3 quizes 1 each day. The first day our quiz was 6 questions we had to hand write what are the 6 rules of hydraulics. I knew all 6 and got 1 ,2 , 3 , 6 right. I mixed up 4 , 5 depth and density so i got those 2 wrong.

    Next day we took a 19 question quiz pertainign to some formulas and meanings. I scored an 18 or 19 on that I don't remember. Then the third day we took a 25 question quiz pertaining to problems and such and scenarios. I got 6 wrong on that.

    So that right there is 50% of your grade the quizes. what they add up to. Then your final is 50 questions. Take the 2 diff tests add them together and score an accumilative 70% minimum.

    The formulas and and book we used for our hydraulics class. Is the Official Student resource manual , Fire Service Hydraulics. (FFP 1301) From the florida state fire college. We are a sister academy or training center from the Ocala State fire college alot of the instructors that teach there teach here as well. The book is probably the cheapest book you'll everbuy it's only $10 and a small 50 pages.

    The formulas would be a pain in the *** to type out on here because I dont have the keys to do it you would get funking looking equations because I have no squared buttons and things liek that.

    Main formula we used was for engine pressure.
    EP = NP + TFL + - ELEV. + App.

    We did alot of Friction loss formulas.

    Alls I have to say is by the last day when we were reviewing all that we learned , I was so full of information and he was tryng to teach us some rule of thumb problems I just went brain dead I couldn't memorize anymore.

    I always try and think what would help or improve classes or the fire service itself , whether its changing the toilet paper to softer charmen or trying to change the way we use our trucks . So I've been trying to think of ways to help others in the class to come. I am good friends with the training chief and he's pretty open with suggestions and change.

    Anymore questions I'd love to answer them for you.
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    I must admit I subscribe to the Geoirge and Harve pump master ideation. I knew how to get water and had a basic idea of how much psi to give, inevitibly some one either wants more or less pressure.
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