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  1. #21
    Forum Member spearsm's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DennisTheMenace
    OK, I can buy that feeling, but wouldn't nine very strong bases be as much or more of a deterrant then ten or eleven weaker bases?
    9 vs 11? probably stands a good chance of improving abilities. 4 vs 11. No. I know this is just a "ferinstance". But where do you stop? What is considered "streamlined"? You can go from streamlined to strained really easy.(I could insert examples from my facility here, but won't) Sometimes it is unknown. Possibly unknown until it is too late. Can you agree with that?

    And who are these bases supposed to be deterring anyhow? Since the Soviet Block has been dismantaled we are totally expeditionary, there is no real military protection needed for the homeland to stop invasion.
    That could be a dangerous belief. China may be limited now, but don't turn your back......

    big bases do nothing to deter terrorism,
    I belive that there is some level of deterrance, maybe not much, but just grant me this fleeting belief (considering I live near an installation)


    We need to adjust to the current threats and that means closing no longer needed bases.
    The DOD has been closing bases for a long, long time. the base that I came into this ole` world, closed shortly after (is there meaning in that? )so to think that no base will/should close is ludicrious. The fear is as follows: if the government will spend $600 dollars for a HAMMER, what is to say that closing too many installations is not possible?

    ramblings, I know.

    YGBSM!
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    If all you have is a hammer, then your problems start to look like nails.
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  2. #22
    Forum Member allineedisu's Avatar
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    Unhappy

    Being a veteran myself, I know that the military can have too many posts and could have them consolidated. The reserve places, for what ever reason has always been separate for the armed forces. Bring all these together would make more sense.

    Cutting out large post, may not be the best route to go. Each of these have a different and separate purpose. The sub base in Groton will never be closed! Likewise some of the Army larger posts that have been targeted to be closed could be a problem.

    If this country would step up war production and bring back the draft, provide more supplies, we may be able to have a victory in Iraq and not have another Vietnam.

  3. #23
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    From WTOL.com

    UPDATED WITH MORE STREAMING VIDEO
    Air Guard Base to Stay at Toledo Express
    May 13, 2005, 04:06 PM Email to a Friend Printer Friendly Version

    The 180th Fighter Wing flies the F-16 fighter plane.


    The 180th employs 1,100 workers at Toledo Express Airport, 300 of them full-time.







    MONCLOVA TOWNSHIP -- The Ohio Air National Guard base will stay at Toledo Express Airport, and add new jobs. Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur announced in a news conference this morning that the 180th Fighter Wing's base will avoid closure that will happen to other bases around the country.

    In addition to keeping the 180th's base at Toledo Express Airport open, Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur says the 180th will retain its F-16 fighter planes, and get 9 more planes when other F-16 bases around the country are closed. It would also get 126 new jobs, 14 military and 112 civilian, when a fire fighting unit moves to Toledo when the Air Guard base in Mansfield closes.

    About 1,100 people work for the 180th Fighter Wing providing combat-ready F-16 jets for the Air Force. About 300 of those people are full-time. The 180th has distinguished itself for flying missions in Iraq's no-fly zones, and was one of the first bases in the nation to have planes in the air when the terror attacks started happening on September 11, 2001.

    The 180th has a $71 million dollar economic impact on the Toledo economy. People who live, work and run businesses near the Toledo Air National Guard base compare the effort to save the military operation with the effort to save Jeep some ten years ago.

    Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says 33 major bases are among the 150 military installations the Pentagon is proposing to close. Rumsfeld says Cold War arrangements "must give way to the new demands of the war against extremism." The closures and downsizings would cost 29,000 civilian and military jobs over six years starting next year. The plan goes to a commission and then needs congressional and White House approval.

    Ohio would lose an Air National Guard base in Mansfield, and military finance center in Cleveland would be realigned to lose 1,028 jobs, but the state would gain about 241 full-time jobs overall in the base realignment process.

    The Air National Guard's 179th Airlift Wing in Mansfield would lose 1,060 jobs, including 230 full-time positions. The unit's eight C-130 cargo planes would be transferred to bases in Alabama and Arkansas. The Defense Department also wants to realign the Defense Finance and Accounting Service in Cleveland. It was not clear whether the 1,028 jobs would be transferred.

    U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich, a Democrat whose district includes Cleveland, said the announcement was a slap in the face to Ohio voters who gave President Bush the votes needed to win re-election last fall. "Our community needs the over 1,000 jobs that DFAS provides," he said, vowing to fight the decision.

    The Pentagon also recommended that 1,758 jobs be added to the Defense Supply Center in Columbus, which includes a Defense Finance and Accounting Service operation. Wright-Patterson Air Force Base near Dayton, which is Ohio's largest single-site employer with more than 22,000 jobs, would pick up an additional 494 jobs.

    Michigan also has several bases on the chopping block. The Pentagon is recommending the closing of an Air Guard Station in Battle Creek, but the Detroit Arsenal in Warren and Selfridge Air National Guard Base would gain jobs in a plan that would ultimately benefit the state.

    The Defense Department says the Detroit Arsenal would become its premier facility for ground vehicle development and acquisitions -- leading to a gain of 647 jobs at the Warren facility. Selfridge Air National Guard Base would gain 84 jobs.

    Under the plan, the military would close the US Army Garrison at Selfridge for a loss of 300 jobs, and the W.K. Kellogg Airport Air Guard Station in Battle Creek would close, for a loss of 274 jobs. Other closings included the Parisan US Army Reserve Center in Lansing, leading to 25 job losses, and the shuttering of the Navy Reserve Center in Marquette, a loss of seven jobs.

    US Representative Joe Schwarz, of Battle Creek, says he plans to challenge the plans to transfer A-10 aircraft stationed at the Air National Guard base to Selfridge. He says the aircraft provided support to US Marines battling terrorist groups in Fallujah, Iraq.

    Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says the closures and realignments, if approved, would result in about $50 billion dollars worth of savings to the government over 20 years.



    Posted by AEB
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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  4. #24
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    I am a victim of Wild Bill's BRAC..... When I was a civilian firefighter in Virginia on a military base it was close. The BRAC folks visited it during the first Gulf War. I was a primary listening post and signal command.

    Their report........"insignificant military forces present and minimal civilian jobs. Problem is that when they visited the base, 75% of the signaling command was in Iraq and the other 25% was either in vehicles on the antenna field or locked down in secure buildings aloong with the civilian personnel that worked there. At the time the BRAC folks did not have top security clearance so they could not enter these buildings and since it was all top secret, they could not actaully see the work force. The military force was off fighting for freedom...when they came back....their base was closed....

    Total BS!!!

    As others have said...move these finance and logistics offices somewhere and leave our nations bases alone...
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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  5. #25
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    My ex works at Ellsworth and he was told a little while ago he was going to England.
    2005 Pontiac Wave 5 Hatch
    Pontiac... built for drivers

  6. #26
    Forum Member ThNozzleman's Avatar
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    We are stretch thin now and need more people in country, if we are to gain a victory in Iraq. It that is not the plan, then we need to load every one up and bring them home.
    Now you're talking sense.

  7. #27
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    When Clinton continued the base closings started by poppy Bush (the good one), Clinton was accused of 'gutting' the military by conservatives.

    I'm sure the same refrain will be heard again when Dubya allows this action in September.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  8. #28
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    I dont pretend to know the story behind all the closeings. But what they are doing here makes perfect sense. The Navy reserve center in St.Pete is on one side of the bay, the Marine Corps reserve center is on the Tampa side. Takes about 15 minutes to travel between the two. So close one, and have both share the other. Why not? The Marine Corps is part of the Navy anyway.

    Granted, Im sure for every closeing that makes as much sense as this ont, their are ones that make no sense at all. But I do see the point of trying to cut waste and eliminmate duplication of services.

    And George is right, a lot of these facilities where built in a different time, and probably no longer serve a purpose.
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  9. #29
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    I think the backlash from base closings is more related to the effect on the local civilian economy rather than a loss of military effectiveness. San Antonio is a bigtime military city with 3 Air Force Bases and 3 Army Posts. BRAC is taken extremely seriously and contested vigorously every time here. While most decisions made about realignment are "way above my pay grade" I do see the need for it. The conflicts we are involved in today are of a different nature than those the miltary is currently largely configured for. I'd rather see the money better used to provide better equipment and support for our troops. All that being said, I was sad to see Otis ANGB recommended for closure. The 102nd Fighter Wing was my first unit when I enlisted and is an outstanding organization.

  10. #30
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Originally posted by stm4710
    There are alot of civillians and companys that depend on these bases. Mass. alone, 30k+ WILL be out of a job. How many more economys is Bush going to ruin at the stroke of a pen?


    Signed
    A concerned citizen.
    So the Military should waste money that could go towards readiness and protecting the troops because some communities have not diversified their economies?
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  11. #31
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Originally posted by allineedisu
    Being a veteran myself, I know that the military can have too many posts and could have them consolidated. The reserve places, for what ever reason has always been separate for the armed forces. Bring all these together would make more sense.

    Cutting out large post, may not be the best route to go. Each of these have a different and separate purpose. The sub base in Groton will never be closed! Likewise some of the Army larger posts that have been targeted to be closed could be a problem.

    If this country would step up war production and bring back the draft, provide more supplies, we may be able to have a victory in Iraq and not have another Vietnam.
    Groton is tiny when compared to Norfolk or SanDiego, those subs and units could be moved to Norfolk with minimal effect on deployment readiness, but a maximum savings by sharing the support facilites. I fully suspect that Groton will stay on the cutting block when all the reviews are done. There is also not an Army base on the list that is too big to be easily aborbed by other bases. These saving will allow more production of the things the troops need, that is what will help in the desert.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  12. #32
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Originally posted by stm4710
    There are alot of civillians and companys that depend on these bases. Mass. alone, 30k+ WILL be out of a job. How many more economys is Bush going to ruin at the stroke of a pen?


    Signed
    A concerned citizen.
    DennistheMenace is correct. The purpose of the DoD is to protect the nation. Not provide for the local citizenry. The more money spent on DoD expenditures (as well as any other govt program), the less there is for other responsibilities of govt. Or ultimately, the more taken away from the citizen in taxes. Eisenhower hit it right when he described the destructive nature of the military industrial complex.

    One of the few times I agree with conservatives.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  13. #33
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Originally posted by scfire86


    The purpose of the DoD is to protect the nation. Not provide for the local citizenry. The more money spent on DoD expenditures (as well as any other govt program), the less there is for other responsibilities of govt. Or ultimately, the more taken away from the citizen in taxes. Eisenhower hit it right when he described the destructive nature of the military industrial complex.

    I have to agree with you here Sc. I've had time to read and think about the closings and reallignments, they don't appear to be force reductions but adjustments to a changing role and purpose for the military. If the DoD is able to reduce the duplication of service, increase efficiency and effectiveness all while saving money so much the better. That is something the government as a whole could use, efficiency with more effectiveness.
    The DoD is there to provide national defense, not jobs. The jobs provided are a definate fringe benefit for defense, but not the primary consideration. No matter where the changes are made someone will not be happy.

  14. #34
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    Well, my local base NAS Willow Grove is closing..but not 100% sure due to the Air National Gurad unit there that's under the control of the state govenor...and he filed paperwork to stop it all....well...the A-10's are on standby right now....so pending a new decision we'll see what my reservist buddies (crash crew USMC bubbas) are gonna do....and if I ever go back in....

    At least they saved a few bases....

  15. #35
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscamaro73
    At least they saved a few bases....

    The point of this whole program is not to save a few bases, but to save money, improve effectiveness, improve efficiency and so on. My community is taking a big hit, the 440th TAW is being removed, yet it is necessary to support this, you simply can't support an initiative as long the cuts don't affect you.
    Many of our bases date back to the civil war era, many to the cold war, many somewhere in between. How can the military be effective if it never adjusts?
    Another thought here, if the pentagon was looking to close these installations, just how big of an excess were they? Since when does the pentagon turn anything down, moneywise at the least.
    These realignments should be an example for the rest of government to follow, at all levels. Every branch of government wastes our money, including all of our own departments.

  16. #36
    Forum Member SpartanGuy's Avatar
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    Read the latest issue of TIME magazine. They have an excellent article on the opportunities presented to communities by base closures. If people can get past the 'mourning' stage, you have prime real estate, fully equipped with utilities and the like, to turn into housing developments, airports(like San Antonio did with Bergenstrom, i think), or what not. And a study shows that something like 85-90% of cities that suffered base closings have regained all of the lost jobs.

    The point is, it'll hurt, but that hurt only lasts a bit. It's like getting your wisdom teeth pulled. It might hurt for a week, but after that, you'll end up better off.
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

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  17. #37
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    Are you seriously advocating mixing Army doggies with Marines?Say it ain't so!
    Better call out the Sheriff and the Highway patrol for this one.Unless in Texas,then you only get one Ranger for one riot.

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisTheMenace
    They are just moving that operation to another base, consolidation for savings, it will work and not lower true readyness at all.
    Again, there is going to be consolidation of the centers. Why have a Marine Reserve Center three blocks away from an Army Reserve center when each is really only used for one or two weekends a month? They can be consolidated for great savings with out any real inconvience added for anyone.

  18. #38
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    A lot of bases,Army posts and Air Force fields were built when ships,aircraft and ground vehicles didn't have the range that they do now.
    There was also a different population density which explains all the "secret"areas out in the Southwestern corner of the country.
    I say,close what needs to be closed and consolidate as much as possible but just remember,there may come a call for that base or capability.It's always better to have something and to not need it than to need it badly and not have it.

  19. #39
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    Better believe it.Gas prices are so high because China's buying lots and lots of oil.Wonder what they have planned for using it?

    Quote Originally Posted by spearsm
    That could be a dangerous belief. China may be limited now, but don't turn your back......



  20. #40
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    First I give the BRAC a lot of credit for not being a rubber stamp on the Pentagon's proposals.

    I live near Ellsworth AFB. The final figures from the GAO and the BRAC indicated that it would not save money but actually cost twenty million more to move the B-1s to Dyess instead of leaving them where they are. It also appears a lot of the cost savings were personnel costs that were in fact transferred to another base.

    The amount of recovery typically quoted in studies is for bases closed in larger metro areas where there are more opportunities for redevelopment.

    Look at the bases in rural areas such as Loring AFB Maine and see what percent of the civilian workforce has been replaced with new industries.

    The 80-85% figure that is touted is for the civilian workforce, it does not include the thousands of military positions that left the area.

    It also appears that the Pentagon did not follow it's own guidelines when evaluting many of the bases.

    Do we need to close some of them? You bet. Should Ellsworth have been closed? Maybe. The base has basically been rebuilt in the last twenty years. It has the room and facilities expand. It could also be used by units that are removed from Europe.

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    Last edited by Rayr49; 08-29-2005 at 04:09 PM.

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