Like Tree5Likes

Thread: Thread killer

  1. #1601
    Forum Member
    PFDTruck2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    421

    Default

    Who says you have to grow up?
    When opening up the roof remember plywood comes in 4' X 8' sheets.

    www.94firedept.com

    IACOJ proud member

  2. #1602
    IACOJ BOD
    FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    whats those last two words mean?
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  3. #1603
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    464

    Default

    Hey Jerry, how's that snowfall going in KC?

  4. #1604
    Forum Member
    jerrygarcia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    KC
    Posts
    630

    Default

    I got about 10" at my house unofficially. I'm getting ready to head out for my shift in a sec, 2 hours before it starts. I live about 18 miles from my station.

    Thread Killer Extraordinaire!

  5. #1605
    MembersZone Subscriber
    pvfire424's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Kansas City Mo
    Posts
    667

    Default

    Jerry arn't you glad A shift got all the fun !!!

    Heck while I sat at work, Pleasant Valley even got in on the action, it proved too much for our poor old outdated Combi tool.


    As far as snow on the West Side of N Oak, 8" at 11:00 last night, and I shoveled about a foot off of my wife's side of the driveway this morning.


    Be safe out there again today Jerry, there are still idiots out there tryin' to get ya !!!

  6. #1606
    Forum Member
    RspctFrmCalgary's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Now in Victoria, BC. I'm from beautiful Jasper Alberta in the heart of the Can. Rockies - will always be an Albertan at heart!
    Posts
    6,329

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi
    whats those last two words mean?
    Grow = to expand
    Up = opposite of down


    There ya go, Ian!!
    September 11th - Never Forget

    I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

    Sheri
    IACOJ CRUSTY CONVENTION CHAIR
    Honorary Flatlander

    RAY WAS HERE FIRST

  7. #1607
    IACOJ BOD
    FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    At 6 foot 2 inches methinks I have "Expanded Upwards" enough for now.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  8. #1608
    Forum Member
    PFDTruck2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    421

    Default

    I thought you measured everything in meters down there.
    When opening up the roof remember plywood comes in 4' X 8' sheets.

    www.94firedept.com

    IACOJ proud member

  9. #1609
    Forum Member
    PattyV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1,272

    Default

    I cant judge height in metres
    I am 6' tall not 183cm.
    People still tend to measure a person's height in feet and inches out of tradition i suppose. Just like the weight of babies is measured in pounds not kilos. Though thats one thing i cant judge using the imperial system. Im only good at height in the imperial system.
    "There are only two things that i know are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And im not so sure about the former."

    For all the life of me, i cant see a firefighter going to hell. At least not for very long. We would end up putting out all the fires and annoying the devil too much.

  10. #1610
    IACOJ BOD
    FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    I thought you measured everything in meters down there.
    We do.

    I was translating so you wouldn't strain brain cells converting.

    PS. Plywood really comes in 2400 X 1200 milimeter sheets.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  11. #1611
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Waterboro, Maine
    Posts
    520

    Default

    Just remember that when opening up the roof!
    There goes the neighborhood.

  12. #1612
    Forum Member
    PattyV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1,272

    Default

    I dont find that many people use plywood sheets in construction here . They tend to use more Gyprock with a wooden framework.
    Though i did find a rather troublesome piece of plywood behind the vanity in my bathroom. (oh the joys of renovating)
    "There are only two things that i know are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And im not so sure about the former."

    For all the life of me, i cant see a firefighter going to hell. At least not for very long. We would end up putting out all the fires and annoying the devil too much.

  13. #1613
    Forum Member
    PFDTruck2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    421

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingKiwi


    We do.

    I was translating so you wouldn't strain brain cells converting.

    PS. Plywood really comes in 2400 X 1200 milimeter sheets.

    Thank you I don't want to waste the few I have, as you can tell by setting myself up for that answer.
    When opening up the roof remember plywood comes in 4' X 8' sheets.

    www.94firedept.com

    IACOJ proud member

  14. #1614
    IACOJ BOD
    FlyingKiwi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,757

    Default

    Metric is simple.

    It has to be... the French invented it during their revolution.

    (Which was one of the few wars won by Frenchmen)

    Take a known amount of water in a standard jug of the day.

    Lets say that water ways 1 Kilogram.

    Now we can divide that amount in units of 1, 10, 100 or 1000 or multiply it by the same amount and "Viola" we have a weight unit.

    Now make the water into a perfect cube. How big is the cube?

    Lets call the cube 10 centimetres. "Viola" we have a length unit we can base from for everything we need.

    see, even limited brain activity can keep up.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

  15. #1615
    Forum Member
    PattyV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1,272

    Default

    I still remember my gradpa trying to teach me the old pounds, guineas, shillings, pence system. It was too much for me to handle, not because it was plain complicated, but because it was needlessly complicated. I think i might go over to the 'unusual habits' thread and list that as one of my pet peeves.
    "There are only two things that i know are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And im not so sure about the former."

    For all the life of me, i cant see a firefighter going to hell. At least not for very long. We would end up putting out all the fires and annoying the devil too much.

  16. #1616
    MembersZone Subscriber
    rualfire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Strathmore, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    444

    Default Railway gauge

    You want confusing... read a little history on railway track gauges. There's some odd items in here. I blame Julius Caesar.


    A history of track gauge
    How 4 feet, 8-1/2 inches became the standard
    by George W. Hilton

    The gauge of a railroad is the distance between the inside vertical surfaces of the head of the rail. Standard gauge is 4 feet, 8-1/2 inches. This is the gauge with which steam railroading began, and it became the common gauge of Britain, North America, and Western Europe except for Spain, Portugal, and Ireland.

    But how did this seemingly odd width become standard?

    When George Stephenson designed the Stockton & Darlington Railway in the north of England in 1825, he used a gauge of 4 feet, 8 inches simply because he had been familiar with it on a mine tramway called the Willington Way on the Tyne River below Newcastle. In turn, the Willington Way had been built to this gauge because it was common on roads in the area. After the Stockton & Darlington, Stephenson used the same 4 feet, 8 inches for the Liverpool & Manchester, the world's first railway between major cities. There he widened the gauge by one-half inch, probably to give more lateral play to the flanges.

    At the outset, the choice of 4 feet 8-1/2 appeared arbitrary. The tramways of the Newcastle area had a variety of other gauges, wider and narrower, any of which Stephenson might have chosen.

    By the 1870's, archeological excavations at Pompeii and elsewhere were revealing that the gauge Stephenson chose may have been the approximate gauge of Roman road vehicles. In a famous episode, an American engineer, Walton W. Evans, sought to test this hypothesis by measuring with a metric rule so as to avoid bias the ruts made by carts and chariots at Pompeii. He converted his measurements to inches and found that the ruts, center to center, were about 4 feet, 9 inches, consistent with a gauge of slightly less than that. Later archeology confirmed that this was the Romans' common gauge.

    The survival of this gauge for road vehicles in Western Europe, including Britain, resulted in its being carried over onto early railways. An oral tradition says it was established at two strides of a Roman soldier by Julius Caesar to standardize ruts for his war chariots, but this has no documentary evidence and is not generally accepted. As English railway historian Charles E. Lee wrote, it probably represents the optimal size of a road vehicle relative to the indivisible size of a horse. Anything less would have underutilized the horse, and anything greater would have put excessive strain on the animal. The gauge has been carried over into automotive transport, also.

    In railroading, the optimal gauge with respect to a horse is irrelevant. Rather, the relevant indivisibility is that of a human being. Any technological process has to be adapted to the fact that human beings generally come only in one size, from 5 feet, 0 inches to 6 feet, 6 inches. Certainly, the gauge of 4 feet, 8-1/2, inches was not grossly inappropriate. It allowed passenger cars that seated two people in comfort on each side of an aisle wide enough for people to pass. Freight cars were large enough to accommodate the size of packages that people could carry in and stack. The equipment had a moderate degree of overhang.

    Broader gauges tried, and rejected, in England

    There has never been a lack of observers who thought 4 feet 8-1/2 was suboptimal men as disparate as James J. Hill, David P. Morgan, and Adolf Hitler, to name three. Essentially, this interpretation is based on the fact that area-volume ratios of cylinders become more favorable as size increases. As a consequence, large boilers produce their output at a lower average cost than small ones. On a broad-gauge steam locomotive, the boiler could be larger and slung lower for greater stability.

    The man who followed broad-gauge ideology most thoroughly was Isambard Kingdom Brunel, chief engineer of the Great Western Railway of England, who thought 4 feet 8-1/2, much too small for the operations at 50 to 60 mph that he envisioned. He adopted a huge gauge of seven feet apparently exactly 7 feet, 0-1/4 inches for the Great Western, and testified before Parliament enthusiastically of its superiority. Parliament was not convinced, and mandated 4 feet 8-1/2 for future building, but specified 5 feet 3 for Ireland. This could be interpreted as indicating Parliament really considered a broader gauge preferable, but required 4 feet 8-1/2 simply because it was nearly universal except in the west of England. The Great Western was converted to 4 feet 8-1/2, slowly, bringing broad-gauge operation to an end in 1892.

    Early American railroads build to different gauges, then standardize

    The American experience was similar. The gauge of 4 feet, 8-1/2 inches came here mainly because American engineers expected erroneously to use a great many British locomotives. Because early American railroads were expected only to connect bodies of water that were impractical to connect with canals, there is no reason to have expected much gauge uniformity. Early railroads did not anticipate interchange of equipment.

    But because the Baltimore & Ohio and Boston & Albany used 4 feet, 8-1/2 inches, the gauge was off to a flying start. The Pennsylvania used 4 feet, 9 inches, which was compatible. The 6 feet, 0 inches of the Erie and the Lackawanna was the most important northern broad gauge. The Canadian railways used 5 feet, 6 inches, at least in part, for military considerations.

    In the South, broad gauges were dominant. If there was a common gauge there, it was 5 feet, 0 inches. By 1861, track of this gauge extended from Norfolk and Richmond to Memphis and New Orleans, although lack of some physical connections and interchange kept it from being a network.

    The Civil War demonstrated the undesirability of gauge differences. Both the Union and Confederate governments encouraged interchange of equipment. After the war, the rapid growth in grain movements from the Midwest to the East was the greatest single force for homogeneity.

    The Lincoln administration, after planning the transcontinental railroad at 5 feet, 0 inches to conform with the existing railroad in California, decided on 4 feet 8-1/2 for consistency with the most important Eastern railroads. This assured that 4 feet, 8-1/2 inches would be the North American standard gauge.

    The Canadian lines converted to it in 1872-1873, and the Southern railroads began a process of conversion that ended with a massive conversion blitz on Memorial Day weekend 1886.

    Narrow gauge alternatives

    Oddly, as gauge homogeneity was spreading throughout the continent, there arose a movement for narrow-gauge railroads. A Scottish engineer, Robert Fairlie, in 1870 exposited the idea that great economies in weight could be achieved by use of small equipment such as had become common for private carriers serving mines, timber stands, and factories. His fallacy was reversing the actual relation mentioned earlier, that area-volume ratios become more favorable as size increases.

    Remarkably under the circumstances, the narrow-gauge movement had a vogue of 13 years, from 1872 to 1885, before it collapsed. Most U.S. narrow-gauge mileage was converted by 1900, although a 3-foot-gauge network in southwestern Colorado survived for almost a century.

    The damage this movement did was much worse elsewhere. It festooned most of sub-Saharan Africa with a gauge (3 feet, 6 inches) poorly suited to the heavy mineral traffic its railways handled, and it beset India, Australia, and Argentina with serious problems of gauge incompatibility.

    The editor of the principal railroad trade journal of the 19th century, Matthias Nace Forney of The Railroad Gazette, in the course of his opposition to the narrow-gauge movement in the 1870's, reported that railroad engineers with whom he had discussed the question had responded, in general, that 4 feet, 8-1/2 inches was slightly suboptimal, and that something around 5 feet 0 would have been better. Forney agreed, but felt that homogeneity for free-running of equipment nationwide at 4 feet 8-1/2 was more important than any gains that could be gotten by an effort at change.

    No doubt modern engineering techniques could be used to identify an optimal gauge, but short of an impressive demonstration to the contrary, Forney's view of the 1870's remains the most valid judgment.


    George W. Hilton, a professor of history at UCLA, has written for TRAINS on numerous subjects since 1964. He is the author of "American Narrow Gauge Railroads," published by Stanford University Press in 1991, the definitive history on the subject.
    SRFD905 - Serving since 1998

    *~-|EGH|FTM|-~*

  17. #1617
    Forum Member
    RspctFrmCalgary's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Now in Victoria, BC. I'm from beautiful Jasper Alberta in the heart of the Can. Rockies - will always be an Albertan at heart!
    Posts
    6,329

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rualfire
    You want confusing... read a little history on railway track gauges. There's some odd items in here. I blame Julius Caesar.


    A history of track gauge
    How 4 feet, 8-1/2 inches became the standard
    by George W. Hilton

    The gauge of a railroad is the distance between the inside vertical surfaces of the head of the rail. Standard gauge is 4 feet, 8-1/2 inches. This is the gauge with which steam railroading began, and it became the common gauge of Britain, North America, and Western Europe except for Spain, Portugal, and Ireland.

    But how did this seemingly odd width become standard?

    When George Stephenson designed the Stockton & Darlington Railway in the north of England in 1825, he used a gauge of 4 feet, 8 inches simply because he had been familiar with it on a mine tramway called the Willington Way on the Tyne River below Newcastle. In turn, the Willington Way had been built to this gauge because it was common on roads in the area. After the Stockton & Darlington, Stephenson used the same 4 feet, 8 inches for the Liverpool & Manchester, the world's first railway between major cities. There he widened the gauge by one-half inch, probably to give more lateral play to the flanges.

    At the outset, the choice of 4 feet 8-1/2 appeared arbitrary. The tramways of the Newcastle area had a variety of other gauges, wider and narrower, any of which Stephenson might have chosen.

    By the 1870's, archeological excavations at Pompeii and elsewhere were revealing that the gauge Stephenson chose may have been the approximate gauge of Roman road vehicles. In a famous episode, an American engineer, Walton W. Evans, sought to test this hypothesis by measuring with a metric rule so as to avoid bias the ruts made by carts and chariots at Pompeii. He converted his measurements to inches and found that the ruts, center to center, were about 4 feet, 9 inches, consistent with a gauge of slightly less than that. Later archeology confirmed that this was the Romans' common gauge.

    The survival of this gauge for road vehicles in Western Europe, including Britain, resulted in its being carried over onto early railways. An oral tradition says it was established at two strides of a Roman soldier by Julius Caesar to standardize ruts for his war chariots, but this has no documentary evidence and is not generally accepted. As English railway historian Charles E. Lee wrote, it probably represents the optimal size of a road vehicle relative to the indivisible size of a horse. Anything less would have underutilized the horse, and anything greater would have put excessive strain on the animal. The gauge has been carried over into automotive transport, also.

    In railroading, the optimal gauge with respect to a horse is irrelevant. Rather, the relevant indivisibility is that of a human being. Any technological process has to be adapted to the fact that human beings generally come only in one size, from 5 feet, 0 inches to 6 feet, 6 inches. Certainly, the gauge of 4 feet, 8-1/2, inches was not grossly inappropriate. It allowed passenger cars that seated two people in comfort on each side of an aisle wide enough for people to pass. Freight cars were large enough to accommodate the size of packages that people could carry in and stack. The equipment had a moderate degree of overhang.

    Broader gauges tried, and rejected, in England

    There has never been a lack of observers who thought 4 feet 8-1/2 was suboptimal men as disparate as James J. Hill, David P. Morgan, and Adolf Hitler, to name three. Essentially, this interpretation is based on the fact that area-volume ratios of cylinders become more favorable as size increases. As a consequence, large boilers produce their output at a lower average cost than small ones. On a broad-gauge steam locomotive, the boiler could be larger and slung lower for greater stability.

    The man who followed broad-gauge ideology most thoroughly was Isambard Kingdom Brunel, chief engineer of the Great Western Railway of England, who thought 4 feet 8-1/2, much too small for the operations at 50 to 60 mph that he envisioned. He adopted a huge gauge of seven feet apparently exactly 7 feet, 0-1/4 inches for the Great Western, and testified before Parliament enthusiastically of its superiority. Parliament was not convinced, and mandated 4 feet 8-1/2 for future building, but specified 5 feet 3 for Ireland. This could be interpreted as indicating Parliament really considered a broader gauge preferable, but required 4 feet 8-1/2 simply because it was nearly universal except in the west of England. The Great Western was converted to 4 feet 8-1/2, slowly, bringing broad-gauge operation to an end in 1892.

    Early American railroads build to different gauges, then standardize

    The American experience was similar. The gauge of 4 feet, 8-1/2 inches came here mainly because American engineers expected erroneously to use a great many British locomotives. Because early American railroads were expected only to connect bodies of water that were impractical to connect with canals, there is no reason to have expected much gauge uniformity. Early railroads did not anticipate interchange of equipment.

    But because the Baltimore & Ohio and Boston & Albany used 4 feet, 8-1/2 inches, the gauge was off to a flying start. The Pennsylvania used 4 feet, 9 inches, which was compatible. The 6 feet, 0 inches of the Erie and the Lackawanna was the most important northern broad gauge. The Canadian railways used 5 feet, 6 inches, at least in part, for military considerations.

    In the South, broad gauges were dominant. If there was a common gauge there, it was 5 feet, 0 inches. By 1861, track of this gauge extended from Norfolk and Richmond to Memphis and New Orleans, although lack of some physical connections and interchange kept it from being a network.

    The Civil War demonstrated the undesirability of gauge differences. Both the Union and Confederate governments encouraged interchange of equipment. After the war, the rapid growth in grain movements from the Midwest to the East was the greatest single force for homogeneity.

    The Lincoln administration, after planning the transcontinental railroad at 5 feet, 0 inches to conform with the existing railroad in California, decided on 4 feet 8-1/2 for consistency with the most important Eastern railroads. This assured that 4 feet, 8-1/2 inches would be the North American standard gauge.

    The Canadian lines converted to it in 1872-1873, and the Southern railroads began a process of conversion that ended with a massive conversion blitz on Memorial Day weekend 1886.

    Narrow gauge alternatives

    Oddly, as gauge homogeneity was spreading throughout the continent, there arose a movement for narrow-gauge railroads. A Scottish engineer, Robert Fairlie, in 1870 exposited the idea that great economies in weight could be achieved by use of small equipment such as had become common for private carriers serving mines, timber stands, and factories. His fallacy was reversing the actual relation mentioned earlier, that area-volume ratios become more favorable as size increases.

    Remarkably under the circumstances, the narrow-gauge movement had a vogue of 13 years, from 1872 to 1885, before it collapsed. Most U.S. narrow-gauge mileage was converted by 1900, although a 3-foot-gauge network in southwestern Colorado survived for almost a century.

    The damage this movement did was much worse elsewhere. It festooned most of sub-Saharan Africa with a gauge (3 feet, 6 inches) poorly suited to the heavy mineral traffic its railways handled, and it beset India, Australia, and Argentina with serious problems of gauge incompatibility.

    The editor of the principal railroad trade journal of the 19th century, Matthias Nace Forney of The Railroad Gazette, in the course of his opposition to the narrow-gauge movement in the 1870's, reported that railroad engineers with whom he had discussed the question had responded, in general, that 4 feet, 8-1/2 inches was slightly suboptimal, and that something around 5 feet 0 would have been better. Forney agreed, but felt that homogeneity for free-running of equipment nationwide at 4 feet 8-1/2 was more important than any gains that could be gotten by an effort at change.

    No doubt modern engineering techniques could be used to identify an optimal gauge, but short of an impressive demonstration to the contrary, Forney's view of the 1870's remains the most valid judgment.


    George W. Hilton, a professor of history at UCLA, has written for TRAINS on numerous subjects since 1964. He is the author of "American Narrow Gauge Railroads," published by Stanford University Press in 1991, the definitive history on the subject.
    Are ya tryin' to KILL THE THREAD??? heheheheheh Well THAT should do it!!!
    September 11th - Never Forget

    I respect firefighters and emergency workers worldwide. Thank you for what you do.

    Sheri
    IACOJ CRUSTY CONVENTION CHAIR
    Honorary Flatlander

    RAY WAS HERE FIRST

  18. #1618
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    464

    Default

    That 4 feet 8 1/2 inches is also the height of a counter top at an Orange Julius. Orange Julius?... Julius Caesar?...Coincidence?

  19. #1619
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ChiefReason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Illinois-where pertnear is close enough!
    Posts
    5,636

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LEWTFL
    That 4 feet 8 1/2 inches is also the height of a counter top at an Orange Julius. Orange Julius?... Julius Caesar?...Coincidence?
    Throw in Caesar Salad and I smell a conspiracy.
    I scoff at the idea of a coincidence.
    CR
    Visit www.iacoj.com
    Remember Bradley Golden (9/25/01)
    RIP HOF Robert J. Compton(ENG6511)

  20. #1620
    MembersZone Subscriber
    ullrichk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Deleted by the forum gremlins
    Posts
    1,663

    Default

    I'm glad to see that a feeble attempt to derail this tread has failed and that everything's back on track.


    ullrichk
    a.k.a.
    perfesser

    a ship in a harbor is safe. . . but that's not what ships are for

  21. #1621
    Forum Member
    PattyV's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1,272

    Default

    I think that if we found his body, we might find that julius ceasar was really only 4' 8 1/2". Thats why he wanted to take over the world. Sounds like a strong case of short man syndrome to me!
    "There are only two things that i know are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And im not so sure about the former."

    For all the life of me, i cant see a firefighter going to hell. At least not for very long. We would end up putting out all the fires and annoying the devil too much.

  22. #1622
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    464

    Default

    And who is the mysterious "her" that Julius is trying to seize?

  23. #1623
    MembersZone Subscriber
    rualfire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Strathmore, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    444

    Default

    Her.... She... The perfect woman... Only, not 4' 8 1/2".....

    3' tall
    flat head...
    No te......

    nevermind... this is a family show.
    SRFD905 - Serving since 1998

    *~-|EGH|FTM|-~*

  24. #1624
    MembersZone Subscriber
    pvfire424's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Kansas City Mo
    Posts
    667

    Default

    He isn't trying to seize anyone, He SEEs her !




  25. #1625
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    2,983

    Talking she scores again

    deleted by user
    Last edited by superchef; 08-15-2007 at 04:11 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register