1. #1
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    Default Not al-Queada, not ELF, but still terrorists.

    This could happen in your backyard, too. Read past the guns and read what they were trying (ineptly) to do with explosives.

    Suspected skinheads aimed to kill, cops say
    Officials uncover plot to bomb minorities
    Wednesday, May 25, 2005
    BY RICK HEPP
    Star-Ledger Staff
    Two alleged neo-Nazis who face federal charges for illegally selling firearms had their sights set much higher -- killing minorities in southern New Jersey by detonating a bomb similar to the one used in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, authorities said.

    One of the suspected skinheads, Gabriel Carafa, 24, of Pennsville, Salem County, approached a man -- who turned out to be a confidential informant working with the state Division of Criminal Justice's Office of Bias Crimes -- in January and said he was looking for cohorts to build a bomb that he could use to kill minorities.

    "We believe the target of the bombing plot would have been members of South Jersey's minority communities," Criminal Justice spokesman John Hagerty said.

    The informant relayed the tip to the Office of Bias Crimes and authorities quickly set up a sting using an undercover investigator to catch Carafa, Hagerty said. Working with the confidential informant, the undercover investigator quickly struck a deal in which Carafa agreed to provide the bomb's ingredients if they agreed to build it.

    Carafa delivered 60 pounds of urea -- a commercial fertilizer that Oklahoma City bomber Timothy J. McVeigh used in creating the bomb that destroyed the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building and killed 168 people. But investigators found the compound "low grade and insufficient for bomb use," Hagerty said.

    Meanwhile, Carafa had begun selling undercover investigators firearms stolen by an accomplice, Craig Orler, 28, of Whiting, during burglaries of homes in Ocean and Salem counties.

    "Once they started to provide more and more guns, we decided to take these guys down," said Criminal Justice Director Vaughn McKoy.

    State authorities contacted the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to assist in the arrest because federal gun laws carry stiffer penalties than those in New Jersey, McKoy said.

    In all, undercover investigators purchased 10 long guns and one handgun for $1,100 before arresting Carafa and Orler on Friday and charging them with possession of weapons by a convicted felon.

    Carafa pleaded guilty in 2004 to bias intimidation after beating a convenience store night manager who was Hindu, while Orler has at least three prior state convictions for aggravated assault with a deadly weapon and burglary.

    The two are being held without bail, and if convicted face at least 15 years behind bars.

    McKoy said investigators continue to probe the white supremacy groups Carafa and Orler belong to in New Jersey. Authorities allege Carafa is a leader in both the Church of the Creator and a neo- Nazi skinhead group called "The Hated," while Orler is a member of "The Hated."

    "We know there are still members out there in that community," McKoy said. "We've been gathering intelligence about hate groups around the state for years, ... and we're going to continue to be vigilant in identifying, targeting and prosecuting these individuals when and if they commit crimes."

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    Sadly, terrorism begins at home. We must avoid tunnel vision and remember that south Jersey or east Kentucky or central Utah is as vulnerable to terrorism as NYC, LA, and the like. Maybe not from al-Qaeda, but from any of a laundry list of whackos.
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    Originally posted by EastKyFF
    Sadly, terrorism begins at home. We must avoid tunnel vision and remember that south Jersey or east Kentucky or central Utah is as vulnerable to terrorism as NYC, LA, and the like. Maybe not from al-Qaeda, but from any of a laundry list of whackos.
    Actually, target-hardening and preparedness begins at home.

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    Actually I am going to disagree with the statement that this is terrorism. We can't go slapping the terrorism lable on everything that can harm a large group (or even a targeted group) of individuals.

    As defined Terrorism is :"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

    In this case I believe these neo-nazis just wanted to kill some minorities. That in and of itself is a horrible crime but I do not think it is terrorism. Were they trying to intimidate a society or government? Were they trying to instill terror? Or were they just out to kill for killings sake?

    Flame on!
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    Originally posted by FFTide
    Actually I am going to disagree with the statement that this is terrorism. We can't go slapping the terrorism lable on everything that can harm a large group (or even a targeted group) of individuals.

    As defined Terrorism is :"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

    In this case I believe these neo-nazis just wanted to kill some minorities. That in and of itself is a horrible crime but I do not think it is terrorism. Were they trying to intimidate a society or government? Were they trying to instill terror? Or were they just out to kill for killings sake?

    Flame on!
    Flame on it will be...

    Do "minorities count as people? Do neo-nazi skinheads who have a name and a hierarchy count as "...a person or an organized group"? Does trying to blow up and kill a specific group of people-who are "different" than the skinheads and are inarguably the antithesis of their political ideology "...]:"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence"?

    Saying "I believe these neo-nazis just wanted to kill some minorities" is like saying Hitler only wanted to scare the Jews.

    You "There is no such thing as terrorism" people slay me. If this is the best argument you have, you lose big time.

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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    Flame on it will be...

    Do "minorities count as people? Do neo-nazi skinheads who have a name and a hierarchy count as "...a person or an organized group"? Does trying to blow up and kill a specific group of people-who are "different" than the skinheads and are inarguably the antithesis of their political ideology "...]:"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence"?

    Saying "I believe these neo-nazis just wanted to kill some minorities" is like saying Hitler only wanted to scare the Jews.

    You "There is no such thing as terrorism" people slay me. If this is the best argument you have, you lose big time.
    YESSSSSS!

    That didn't take long at all!

    You want to use some of your own words rather than rearrange mine?

    According to you I believe you could consider any crime by one entity against another entity, terrorism. Did I say there is NO such thing as terrorism? No I didn't. I suggest you try again as well.
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    Were they trying to intimidate a society or government? Were they trying to instill terror?
    I think Yes they were. I think they were trying/hoping to scare minorities in that area into moving away. If they wanted to kill just to kill, they would not have been targeting minorities only.
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    Originally posted by FFTide


    YESSSSSS!

    That didn't take long at all!

    You want to use some of your own words rather than rearrange mine?

    According to you I believe you could consider any crime by one entity against another entity, terrorism. Did I say there is NO such thing as terrorism? No I didn't. I suggest you try again as well.
    I don't have to use "my words". The answer is in your words.

    Are you for real?

    These are not "entities" in the sense you are misusing the word. The aggressors are an organized criminal group. Google "Matthew Hale" and see what you find. They are not holding bake sales and car washes. The almost victims are members of a demographic, not by choice, but by virtue of the color of their skin, the location of their birth or other such sociological factor.

    And yes, any act of violence by an organized criminal group for the purpose of coercing or intimidating a group because of their race or ethnic origin IS terrorism...by YOUR definition.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 05-25-2005 at 03:05 PM.

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    Terrorism is perpetrated against more than just the physical victims. When the Klan lynched one black man, did they not aim to frighten all black men? When al Qaeda hit the WTC, did they not aim to frighten all Americans?

    The overt violence is intended to create a mental effect in other "could-be" victims. This was terrorism.

    (And George, to clarify my first post, I mean to say that other countries don't have a monopoly on terrorists. We have plenty of them home-grown. I'm with you on target-hardening and preparedness.)
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    I'll save you the trouble. Check out this link:

    http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/Hale...cked=2&item=mh

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    (And George, to clarify my first post, I mean to say that other countries don't have a monopoly on terrorists. We have plenty of them home-grown. I'm with you on target-hardening and preparedness.)
    I knew that.

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    U.S. Department of Justice
    ----Terrorism
    A violent act or an act dangerous to human life, in violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any segment to intimidate or coerce a government, the civillian poulation, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.

    USC Title 22. Section 2656f(d)

    Premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by sub-national groups or clandestine agents usually intended to influence an audience.

    Categories of Terrorism :

    - domestic terrorism
    - international terrorism
    - right wing terrorism
    - left wing terrorism
    - special interest terrorism
    - state sponsored terrorism
    - formalized groups
    - loosly affiliated radical elements

    These are all categories defined as terrorism by our government, I think the neo-nazi's and their goals fit into one or more of these groups.
    In fact, under right wing terrorism it covers the neo-nazi movement quite well. In fact the U.S. government lists white supremist groups under the term 'right wing terrorist groups'.


    Right wing terrorism

    ---- " Right wing groups generally adhere to an anti-government or RACIST ideology, and continue to attract supporters in the United States. These groups include some so called militia organizations that not only prepare to defend themselves against percieved government excesses, but also plan and attempt to execute offensive operations designed to disrupt the funtioning of government."


    I think it's safe to say that since an attempt at using explosives was made, this incident in particular falls into a differant category. An explosive device would surely cause more panic and mayhem than your average skinhead beating.
    Last edited by jasper45; 05-25-2005 at 03:50 PM.

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    Originally posted by jasper45
    U.S. Department of Justice
    ----Terrorism
    A violent act or an act dangerous to human life, in violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any segment to intimidate or coerce a government, the civillian poulation, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.

    USC Title 22. Section 2656f(d)

    Premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by sub-national groups or clandestine agents usually intended to influence an audience.

    Categories of Terrorism :

    - domestic terrorism
    - international terrorism
    - right wing terrorism
    - left wing terrorism
    - special interest terrorism
    - state sponsored terrorism
    - formalized groups
    - loosly affiliated radical elements

    These are all categories defined as terrorism by our government, I think the neo-nazi's and their goals fit into one or more of these groups.
    In fact, under right wing terrorism it covers the neo-nazi movement quite well. In fact the U.S. government lists white supremist groups under the term 'right wing terrorist groups'.


    Right wing terrorism

    ---- " Right wing groups generally adhere to an anti-government or RACIST ideology, and continue to attract supporters in the United States. These groups include some so called militia organizations that not only prepare to defend themselves against percieved government excesses, but also plan and attempt to execute offensive operations designed to disrupt the funtioning of government."
    There you go. Muddying up this thread with facts.

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    Our friend would lead you to believe that skinheads are a group of people who shave their heads, hunt and hurt minorities for sport and espouse hatred because they are just a bunch of misunderstood, hairless Rotarians.
    The key word in "terrorism" is "terror". Mommy and Daddy could be terrorists in the loose translation.
    Some moron driving very aggressively can be terrifying.
    Just because they cover their face with a Goofy mask instead of a burkha doesn't mean that they aren't a terrorist.
    Let's add it up.
    Yep; terrorism.
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    Originally posted by ChiefReason
    Our friend would lead you to believe that skinheads are a group of people who shave their heads, hunt and hurt minorities for sport and espouse hatred because they are just a bunch of misunderstood, hairless Rotarians.
    If you want to refer to me please use my name and do not hide behind some broad generalization "Our friend". And if that is directed at me, which it feels like, I am none too pleased with your personal attack (which is oh so cleverly disguised in the third person).
    Last edited by FFTide; 05-25-2005 at 04:14 PM.
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    **Edit** Accidential double post
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    We can't go slapping the terrorism lable on everything that can harm a large group (or even a targeted group) of individuals.
    As defined Terrorism is :"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."
    Now this is just me (and I imagine lots more) but , one could argue that "a large group (or even a targeted group) of individuals" could be considered a "society (or societies) ". There by making the actions of those mentioned in the article INDEED terrorism.

    Thats what I think, but then again, I could be wrong. (doubt it)
    Last edited by pvfire424; 05-25-2005 at 04:46 PM.

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    Originally posted by FFTide


    If you want to refer to me please use my name and do not hide behind some broad generalization "Our friend". And if that is directed at me, which it feels like, I am none too pleased with your personal attack (which is oh so cleverly disguised in the third person).
    Personal attack? What are you 12? If that is the worst personal attack you have been on the recieving end of, you have led a very lucky life.

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    Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


    Personal attack? What are you 12? If that is the worst personal attack you have been on the recieving end of, you have led a very lucky life.
    No, not 12, and no, not the only attack I've ever received. But I do NOT want to be painted as a Neo-Nazi just because I don't happen to agree with you! Sorry I disagree with you GWCFI, I see anyone who does in these forums gets a lashing from you, guess I'm just your next victum huh? God forbid I have a differing point of view geez.
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    Originally posted by FFTide


    No, not 12, and no, not the only attack I've ever received. But I do NOT want to be painted as a Neo-Nazi just because I don't happen to agree with you! Sorry I disagree with you GWCFI, I see anyone who does in these forums gets a lashing from you, guess I'm just your next victum huh? God forbid I have a differing point of view geez.
    Not a victim, but before you debate, you should have truth and facts on your side. If you can't hold your end of the debate, you are not automatically a victim.

    BTW, I didn't see anyone even come close to calling you a neo-nazi.

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    Originally posted by FFTide
    God forbid I have a differing point of view geez.
    I don't think this is a "point of view" issue. The word "terrorism" has a legal definition, and that definition certainly includes hate groups such as the Church of the Creator. This group, and similar ones, were being referred to in this way in law enforcement bulletins long before 9/11 or, for that matter, Oklahoma City.

    You, FFTide (happy?), seem to be just fishing for an argument. That's fine, I suppose, but if you're going to do that, at least try to bring a point (and a clue) with you when you come to the pond. Bashing someone's use of a long-accepted reference to well-known criminal behavior probably isn't the best way to make whatever point you were trying to make, but it is a good way to end up looking foolish. Just trying to help...

    ------------------------------------------

    In other news, this is two days in a row I've jumped in on George's side...pretty soon they'll make me trade in my blue card for a red one. I must send a tithe off to Howard, post haste!

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    I am going to agree with fftide on this seems to me more of a racially motivated crime.

    Either way these people suck just as much and who cares what they are in anyone’s book IMO they are all jack asses!
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    What's wierd here is that "Gabriel Carafa" is (if I'm not mistaken) a name of Hispanic decent.
    IAFF

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    FFTide wrote:
    If you want to refer to me please use my name and do not hide behind some broad generalization "Our friend". And if that is directed at me, which it feels like, I am none too pleased with your personal attack (which is oh so cleverly disguised in the third person).
    ChiefReason wrote:
    Our friend would lead you to believe that skinheads are a group of people who shave their heads, hunt and hurt minorities for sport and espouse hatred because they are just a bunch of misunderstood, hairless Rotarians.
    If you are inferring that I was referring to you as a skinhead, then I am none too pleased by your personal attack.
    Get a grip, FF. In no way does that post even come close to personally attacking you.
    I was making a sarcastic, but insightful reference to a group that somehow doesn't fit into your definition of a terrorist group.
    When you throw out an opinion, however misguided; be prepared to discuss it or defend it; whichever the case.
    But don't take it personally; unless you want to.
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    Originally posted by BFDNJFF
    I am going to agree with fftide on this seems to me more of a racially motivated crime.

    Either way these people suck just as much and who cares what they are in anyone’s book IMO they are all jack asses!
    What are you talking about? If the attacks were motivated by an effort to hurt a group of people based on their race, that IS terrorism.

    God, it's incredible how some of you don't get it.

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