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    Smile Job description for Lt.'s

    Hi All-

    Our fire dept is looking into implementing lieutenants. We are a 1 station dept. covering a city of 20,000 and a township of 6,000, we turn around 2300 calls/yr and currently have 3 7 man shifts with a captain and 6 ff's 24/48. The second rank is for alot of reasons mostly to have a line officer on scene and allow the capt. to assume a command role. Our current response is a 4 man enginew/ the capt. and a 3 man truck w/ a senior man acting as an officer.
    If any of you operate similarly to this could I get a copy of your job description for Lt.'s?
    Any help appreciated.

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    while I'm not a career FF, I think it would make more sense to have a line officer on both the engine and truck, and promote the captains to the rank of Battalion chief.

    as a career FF told me, you shouldn't be running command from the back step of a pumper. put the command officer in a chiefs car and allow him to be the IC in a proper vehicle.

    if your department is 100% career, then you should have an officer (a line officer, not an acting officer) in charge of a piece of apparatus during a shift. you also need a chief officer to be the IC of all scenes as well as to oversee the department during the shift.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

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    Thanks for the input, but we are talking about baby steps here, we just fought off lay-offs and are happy to keep the staffing that we have. Our ultimate goal is a chief officer in a vehicle.

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    Originally posted by DrParasite
    while I'm not a career FF, I think it would make more sense to have a line officer on both the engine and truck, and promote the captains to the rank of Battalion chief.

    as a career FF told me, you shouldn't be running command from the back step of a pumper. put the command officer in a chiefs car and allow him to be the IC in a proper vehicle.

    if your department is 100% career, then you should have an officer (a line officer, not an acting officer) in charge of a piece of apparatus during a shift. you also need a chief officer to be the IC of all scenes as well as to oversee the department during the shift.
    How ironic, a volunteer telling you how to run a career department. I think Dr. Parasite is a career wannabe since he always seems to be hanging around the career/paid forum.

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    Originally posted by DrParasite
    while I'm not a career FF, I think it would make more sense to have a line officer on both the engine and truck, and promote the captains to the rank of Battalion chief.

    as a career FF told me, you shouldn't be running command from the back step of a pumper. put the command officer in a chiefs car and allow him to be the IC in a proper vehicle.

    if your department is 100% career, then you should have an officer (a line officer, not an acting officer) in charge of a piece of apparatus during a shift. you also need a chief officer to be the IC of all scenes as well as to oversee the department during the shift.
    Noble effort...but economic reality in most career FD's prevent this. Most have an officer in each house who oversees one or more companies.

    We do have acting officers...it's the senior man in the house who assumes the Acting Lt. position if the need for an acting arises.

    Under the incident command system, the first arriving unit assumes command until command is transferred or assumed. If you are the first due company and waiting two to three minutes for someone else to show up and you have to get moving in a big hurry, you do not have the luxury of staying outside to "run the show"... you have to get to work! I was the first due officer ( called in to cover the absence of the Captain of the group, who was called to a hazmat in a neighboring town as part of the District team) at a 2 alarm condo fire, the Lt. on the second due engine assumed command from me on his arrival and did one helluva good job in running the incident until he in turn was releived by the captain of his group, who by that time returned to duty.

    I disagreee with the statement that you need a Chief officer at every scene. A minor MVA with a an engine and Rescue/and or bone box does not require a Chief to tell the crew what to do. Any company officer worth his salt can handle that quite nicely.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Fire Medic, my department is very similar to yours except that we have a Capt , Lt and 5 F/f on 4 shifts 24/7.. They created Lts back in the mid 70,s and sold it as away to save OT. we had to have aCapt but he was out sick or on vacation that ment having a capt work ovet time. By having Lts this still leaves you with an officer.
    in the early 90,s the new chief decieded that for safety and operational needs that we would have aCapt and an Lt at all times wish lead to acting officers.policyisthat there must be one real officer at all times. For us the Capt is the shift, and Incident commander on all full responces the Lt rides the lead engine and handles all 1 engine responses.The capt ends up as IC at a structure fire and the Lt is inside withe men and the line. Even though we need more men it has been working very good for us and the actings get very valuable experience come promotion time. We maintain an acting list at all times, only if the FF onthe acting list is not available will it pass to the senior FF. Hope this helps

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    Thnaks WRENCH, that is exactly what we had in mind.

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    Originally posted by ironmint
    How ironic, a volunteer telling you how to run a career department. I think Dr. Parasite is a career wannabe since he always seems to be hanging around the career/paid forum.
    You know what? you really are an ***.

    I think ironmint is a firefighter wannabe since he always seems to be hanging around the firefighter forum.

    btw, I don't think I would take a job as a paid FF, I couldn't handle the pay cut.
    If you are the first due company and waiting two to three minutes for someone else to show up and you have to get moving in a big hurry, you do not have the luxury of staying outside to "run the show"... you have to get to work!
    with all due respect Capt, but if your entire crew is inside fighting the fire, who is running the show? who is doing your size up, who is giving orders to incoming units, who is advising dispatch that you need more help? don't get me wrong, but I've fought fires where there were no chief officers on scene at first, and the first in crew (and later second in crew) were inside fighting the fire. it didn't run as smoothly as I would have liked (with hindsight being 20/20). Yeah, we work with what we have, do what needs to get done, and the fire goes out, but still....

    btw, I don't think you need a chief at every scene. single engine responses, EMS responses, yeah, the engine officer can handle it by him or her self. but when you get multiple agencies (at an MVA, fire, EMS and police), and multiple units involved (engine and rescue, especially if you are running short handed), having one IC can be beneficial.

    I will close with something my Chief says. Red helmets (our officers) always belong inside the building supervising their crews. white helmets (our chief officers) always belong outside. If you are going to have an IC, IMO, he should be a chief officer (even if it means the captain gets a new helmet and rank, but nothing else changes).

    FireMedic7, good luck with whatever you implement.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

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    Originally posted by DrParasite
    with all due respect Capt, but if your entire crew is inside fighting the fire, who is running the show? who is doing your size up, who is giving orders to incoming units, who is advising dispatch that you need more help? don't get me wrong, but I've fought fires where there were no chief officers on scene at first, and the first in crew (and later second in crew) were inside fighting the fire. it didn't run as smoothly as I would have liked (with hindsight being 20/20). Yeah, we work with what we have, do what needs to get done, and the fire goes out, but still....
    DOC it's been along time since I went thru IC but I think they call the first officer on scene that starts fire fighting (including interior ops) active command. In my dept. first alarms consist of 2 engines, 1 aerial, 1 district chief. Our second in engine is usually less than 3 mins. out, our Ariel is either with the 1st engine or about 3 mins. out. Same for the district chief.
    When it comes to a chief on scene I find it different than you. I find that on an average structure fire it runs very well if the first captain to assume command , keeps it. The first captain takes active command reporting to the next unit what is found then, The second in assume IC and runs the scene. That could be the second in engine Aeriel or the DC. On a confirmed working fire 2 more engines a service truck and 2 rescue units are dispatched. If a captain is in command and he is needed to run a crew the DC will take over.
    I guess we are the exception. I find a good captain is more the capable of making command decisions, at least at a DC level.
    IMHO

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    if it helps im on a 17 man including chief fully paid dept. we have 2 shifts a and b and have indidual kelly days off. meaning that at the most we have 6 men on duty at a time and as few as 4 we have 2 stations st 1 has a ladder and the shift captain along with 1 leut and 2 ff per shift run off of it, with at least one man always off. st 2 has an engine with a leut and seargent and 2 ff and at least one always off. the reason the city made the seargents pos. was to make it the same as the police departments ranks. the chief only responds on confirmed pi/mva from 0700-1600 and all structure fires and hazmats anytime.

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    Originally posted by Dr. Parasite
    with all due respect Capt, but if your entire crew is inside fighting the fire, who is running the show? who is doing your size up, who is giving orders to incoming units, who is advising dispatch that you need more help? don't get me wrong, but I've fought fires where there were no chief officers on scene at first, and the first in crew (and later second in crew) were inside fighting the fire. it didn't run as smoothly as I would have liked (with hindsight being 20/20). Yeah, we work with what we have, do what needs to get done, and the fire goes out, but still....



    Originally posted by Acklan


    DOC it's been along time since I went thru IC but I think they call the first officer on scene that starts fire fighting (including interior ops) active command. In my dept. first alarms consist of 2 engines, 1 aerial, 1 district chief. Our second in engine is usually less than 3 mins. out, our Ariel is either with the 1st engine or about 3 mins. out. Same for the district chief.
    When it comes to a chief on scene I find it different than you. I find that on an average structure fire it runs very well if the first captain to assume command , keeps it. The first captain takes active command reporting to the next unit what is found then, The second in assume IC and runs the scene. That could be the second in engine Aeriel or the DC. On a confirmed working fire 2 more engines a service truck and 2 rescue units are dispatched. If a captain is in command and he is needed to run a crew the DC will take over.
    I guess we are the exception. I find a good captain is more the capable of making command decisions, at least at a DC level.
    IMHO
    Bingo! Active command! One can advise dispatch of the conditions on arrival and issue orders to the arriving and incoming companies prior to entering with the crew, and letting the officer of the 2nd due unit that he/she will be assuming command on their arrival. at the fire of which I spoke, the second due engine company arrived within 4 minutes.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    FireMedic 7: Check with the ISO office. Years ago our dept. ran three shifts with a single officer. If the shift officer was out or on vacation there was an acting officer that was from the firefighter ranks. ISO told us this was not acceptable and that at least one fire officer must respond first due to every first alarm assignment. They did not recognize the acting officer as an officer for the purposes of running a first alarm. Now we have an Asst. Chief and a liuetenant on each shift and a minimum of one of the two must be on duty 24/7. They are allowed to swap with other officers but never between firefighters and officers. I assume that under ISO's theory, you could have just one officer respond on the first alarm regardles of the number of stations or apparatus involved. For us it was simple. One station, two engine, 1 truck, 1 rescue minimum of one officer. One damn busy, stretched very thin officer!

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