1. #1
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    Default Collapsing a PVC main

    I'm looking for reliable accounts from anyone that has 1st hand (or reliable hearsay that I can followup on) knowledge of a PVC water main that has collapsed during pumper soft suction operations. IE. collapsible hose from fire hydrant to your pumper/engine.

    Issue is that a rural water district is planning construction of a transmission/distribution system in our rural district. They insist that any hydrants (if installed) may only be used to fill portable tanks. That using fire hydrant as designed will/can collapse their main. This does not pass the BS test at any level. The rural water reps have zero credibility at any level, but it's their toy, so I will have to prove they are full of it. I've discussed with several water system engineers and associated players in the industry and none that I've talked to see this as an issue. If water flow thru the main is not sufficient to keep up with the pumper (pump begins to draw a vacuum) the hose will collapse as it is the weakest link in the system. That makes sense. I have received the "properly installed pipe" qualifier. Given the practices of the rural water companies and their contractors, assuming they install the pipeline per mfg instructions may be a stretch. The tranmission main in question will be 15"+ SDR PVC.

    But the experts on the issue in the field are here. Anyone seen an instance of a modern PVC collapse during soft suction operations?

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    The idea of collapsing a PVC main with a soft intake hose on a fire hydrant is ridiculous.

    Someone at the state level probably has to approve water system design and installation with some minimum design critera. I'd suggest you find out who it is and get a statement from them.
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    In my opinion, There is no way you could collapse a water main.....

    Water hammer damage is possible.
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    Unless it becomes a matter of the pipes not being able to handle the forces of the water moving at that accellerated rate in the pipes. I'm having a hard time describing what I'm envisioning, but just picture the pipes failing due to stress rather than suction. I don't know. I do agree that collapsing from suction is non-sense.
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    Thumbs down Can't Happen.............

    Collapsing ANYTHING with a soft suction hose is impossible. Period. The Soft Suction WILL collapse in on itself, before ANYTHING else is affected. Period. End of Story. Sudden thought. Demonstrate this by setting up a portable Tank, and trying to draft out of it with a Soft Suction......... If you can't pick up the water out of the Fabric Tank Liner, you damn sure can't create a vacuum in the water main. Call this guy out in the street and shoot him with this demonstration. Make an idiot out of him in public, in broad daylight, with the local Media present.
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    Aren't most dry hydrants made out of PVC? And have you ever heard of one of those collapsing while using hard suction? I know I haven't.
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    we havent collapsed a main, but we did colapse a neighboring house. the house was in the older part of town, and the water dept didnt have backflow preventors with their water meters to the house. well we got to using so much water we sucked the neighboring house dry, and then the lines collapsed.

    this is near impossible now a days because the setters that water depts put meters have a built in backflow preventer.

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    Question What?????...................

    Originally posted by ftfdverbenec770
    we havent collapsed a main, but we did colapse a neighboring house. the house was in the older part of town, and the water dept didnt have backflow preventors with their water meters to the house. well we got to using so much water we sucked the neighboring house dry, and then the lines collapsed.

    this is near impossible now a days because the setters that water depts put meters have a built in backflow preventer.

    Can someone PLEASE explain this? I don't begin to understand it. And I come From a family that has/had lots of Plumbing Industry people in it.
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    Thumbs up Yeah, What He Said!.....................

    Originally posted by fdmhbozz
    Aren't most dry hydrants made out of PVC? And have you ever heard of one of those collapsing while using hard suction? I know I haven't.
    EXCELLENT POINT BRO!
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    Several years ago when the a local rural water district was looking for funding on an expansion project, they asked if we would like them to install rural hydrants (at no cost to us) on some of the lines other than trunk lines. These would not flow enough water to be used to draft out of and would be called test locations on the plans. We were told that we had to have an air gap on the outlet end of the hose hooked to the hydrant. This was to prevent having to have the double check valve required by Uncle Sam. The engineers specked all test locations without any checks. We were told the lines are designed to flow just the estimated normal daily usage with no reserve, which can cause a large pressure drop when we are using water. This can create a siphon, without the air gap on the discharge end of the hose from the hydrant, if we are using more than 1 hydrant at a time. We were told that to qualify for federal money, the feds would not approve a system that was bigger than the maximum required for "normal daily usage". Fire protection is not normal usage.

    We have so few reliable water sources that we are tickled to get to use their water. We use an air gap every time we hook up to the Tripp County Rural Water District's system no mater where we are at on the system. We feel the requirements to use the water to be reasonable. They let us use their water for free anytime we need it as long as we estimate how much we use and let them know in a timely fashion. We try to call them, if it is during business hours, before we hook up and then as soon as possible when we are done.

    We had a fire at a honey house full of supers with frames (the boxes with the wax combs bees fill with honey). The fire was like putting out a 500 ton candle with multiple exposures. We drained 78,000 gallons of water from a rural water tower in 2 hours during a mutual aid water shuttle. The manager for the water district pulled up and said we were about to run out of water at the water tower. As soon as he said so, we ran out of water. His only concern was not being able to supply us more water. He said they tried to put more pumps on line but the pressure was getting too high at the main pump house. He appologized for the way the feds made them build the system.

    The majority of our fires are wildland fires. The extra work to set up and tear down a tank can be a pain but we carry portable tanks on our tenders so it is not really an issue. Also we can top load if we need to, even though we try to use that as a last resort. We feel fortunate to have the water.

    Brad

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    If PVC pipe were collapsable, it wouldn't pass final inspection. The state or county inspectors would know about it. Someone is yankin' your chain.
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    Harve,
    I think I know what ftfdverbenec770 is talking about. At a recent fire in Applebees on a private water system in a commercial development, we sucked the water outta Target's commodes while fighting the fire. The same thing happened at a pump class in another area. The town's water supply operated off of a tank on the hill, and we were sucking the water out of a guys house. He came down and bitched at us about it. Neither water system was designed to handle the demand.

    I don't know if you can collapse water pipes, though.
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    There are certain very unusual conditions that can cause you to have residual pressure at the hydrant, but create a vacuum on a remote part of the system. Long distance from pumps / tanks, with a very high point along the line, and you’re a long, deep drop away from the high point. Theoretically, gravity could be pulling water downhill away from that high point faster than the water system can push it up to that high point. You see good residual pressure. The pipe at the top of the hill sees a vacuum.

    Most of us will never see that situation because there are people called Engineers who have stamps that say “PE” who build systems to never see that, or if they have to compromise and allow it, give the water department very specific information of what’s allowable.

    That said, if your water system is vulnerable to this, it won’t matter whether you’re drafting or you simply have the hydrant opened and flowing into a drop tank.

    In fact, if you’re vulnerable to this the PE whose stamp is going on the system should be able to tell you the maximum flow and minimum residual pressure it can tolerate (“You must maintain at least a 30psi residual when flowing 1000gpm at hydrants below 300’ in elevation along this line.”)

    And guess what…if you’re flowing into an open drop tank…

    There’s no way to monitor or control this. Well, maybe you put the probie in the drop tank getting wet holding a pitot guage, but outside of that situation…

    Flowing through a modern fire truck, with a pump operator watching gauges, and you calibrate the gauges annually to be reasonably confident in them…he can know the flow, and know the residual, and thus use the system within it’s design capabilities.

    Just open an hydrant? No monitoring, no control, no ability to operate within design parameters.
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    Originally posted by SpartanGuy
    Harve,
    we sucked the water outta Target's commodes while fighting the fire. The same thing happened at a pump class in another area. The town's water supply operated off of a tank on the hill, and we were sucking the water out of a guys house.
    Now it is quite possible to be using enough water to prevent commodes from flushing (I've done that on to the third floor of our hospital), it is quite another thing to suck the water OUT of a commode. There is an air gap between tank and bowl that prevents siphoning wastewater into the potable system. That's precisely the reason that the garden-hose attachment on your station mop sink is a no-no - unless of course you have an appropriate backflow preventer. A "suction" on the system could siphon nasty stuff out of your sink and into the station's supply piping.
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    I think I would be more concerned about wrecking my impellers on my pump before collapsing ( if it was possible) PVC lines. Ya know that whining sound and the rocking motion coming from the truck - yeah you know the one im talkin about - THATS NOT A GOOD THING!
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    neiowa: this may be just what you need. I got this from http://www.pep-plastic.com/manufactu...ll/faq.htm#q11


    Q: Can PVC pipe withstand a vacuum? If so, what is the maximum vacuum that PVC pipe can withstand?
    A: Yes, PVC pipe can withstand vacuum pressures. According to research conducted by Dr. R.K. Watkins at Utah State University, vacuum pressures cannot collapse an underground PVC pipe that is properly encased in a soil envelope and exposed to normal service temperatures. In fact, quick calculations show that even under conditions of elevated operating temperatures of 100oF, the pressure required to collapse most PVC pipe is greater than atmospheric. In other words, the pipe can withstand a complete vacuum.
    Vacuum pressures are generally not considered a favorable occurrence in water distribution systems of any pipe material. However, if the effects on the entire system are taken into consideration, PVC offers adequate strength and safety to withstand vacuum pressures.

    Apparently this business, plastic engineered products, lists all the specs on the website. If they can't be a "witness" for you, perhaps Dr. Watkins at Utah State might be able to help. That reminds me a little of the Powell Doctorine: Respond with overwhelming firepower. Good Luck! Doc

    P.S., you might get the figures for your fire pump to show what vacuum it is capable of achieving. It won't be much, and combined with Dr. Watkins statement that PVC pipe could withstand any amount of vacuum, you should be able to prove your point.

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    im not sure if this applys to what everyone else is talking about, but this is how the house i talked about colapsed its lines.

    first you need to remeber, water lines in a house arnt that big in dia. in the water dept i work for, ever service line we tap the main with is 3/4 PVC in to the meter. now, code for water lines from the meter to the house is that everything has to be copper. i am unsure on the dia, for that is upto the homeowner.

    the house that had the water lines colapse was built before these codes were even though of. needless to say it was in the OLDER part of town. like i said before, the meter for the house didnt have a backflow preventer on it, so as the main we were using was flowing so much water, the pressure difference forced water from the house back into the main. well after the house was dry of water, the suction of the main colapsed the lines in the house. i dont know what kind of lines were in the house, copper, pvs, cast iron, etc, but what ever it was, they just all colapsed.

    remeber this line wasnt a main, it was the lines in the house. if you had a very small main, 2'' or 4'' branched off of a very much bigger main, 12'' or greater, it is possible persay, but very very unlikely. it would need a great amount of suction to cause this. with something small like anything below 3/4'', its more realistic

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    No one jerking my chain snowball.

    Thanks for all the input. So I'll throw in additional info on how the rural water thing works.

    50 states each have a USDA Rural Development director and engineer. Each pretty much does whatever they please. Divide up the state in fiefdoms for the "nonprofit" rural water district (which USDA devised), put to gether system/expansion plans, then request $millions from congress for the systems in the name of the rural water districts. Not like the typical gov't project. Little to know oversight at the projects are grants of $ to a benevolent "nonprofit". Rural water project terminates at a water meter in a box in the ground at individual customers property line. No antibackflow devices as they do not run/present inside a customers home. USDA engineer specs/designs the entire system; rural water companies design/systems engineer nods when prompted for approval. PVC pipe is available in several schedules (pipe thickness), typical to use the thinest available. Installation typically consists of slipping together the gasketed joints of miles of PVC alongside of an open trench then sliding the pipe over the side/dropping into the trench (IE not properly bedded/installer per mfg specs). No inspections of the project except by the USDA engineer who speced the system and the rural water engineer who nodded when prompted. Elected pols not willing to get intervene with a protected sacred white cow (even though the thing is a leftover from clinton).

    Iowa Dept of Natural Resources (water oversight body in Iowa) does not allow hydrants on anything smaller than 6" main. As mentioned, line in question is a 15" transmission line some 50mi. Relay pumping stations located along the main to maintain system pressure. My interest is in the assertion of the USDA/rural water apparatchiks that soft suction can/will damage their system. What might happen to an improperly installed residential plumbing system is impossible to predict and not of particular interest.

    vfddoc's ref is great. Note the weasel words of "vacuum pressures cannot collapse an underground PVC pipe that is properly encased in a soil envelope and exposed to normal service temperatures. Thats the stuff a lawyer will drive a fire truck thru and the point which I'm attempting to counter with this thread (enlarge ammo supply).

    Getting Registered PE on record is a problem for fear of losing out future business from USDA/fed gov't projects (blacklisted). Not hearing about bid opportunities, getting omitted from mailings/solicitataions, not being the 1st one recommended to a community looking for an engineer. Sound a lot like Chicago politics?

    A political fight as well as potentially legal. Unfortunately we will have to find pro bono assitance if goes to courts.

    Keep it coming, if you can come up with an examples of collasing a PVC main.

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    Originally posted by neiowa
    No one jerking my chain snowball.

    Thanks for all the input. So I'll throw in additional info on how the rural water thing works.

    50 states each have a USDA Rural Development director and engineer. Each pretty much does whatever they please. Divide up the state in fiefdoms for the "nonprofit" rural water district (which USDA devised), put to gether system/expansion plans, then request $millions from congress for the systems in the name of the rural water districts. Not like the typical gov't project. Little to know oversight at the projects are grants of $ to a benevolent "nonprofit". Rural water project terminates at a water meter in a box in the ground at individual customers property line. No antibackflow devices as they do not run/present inside a customers home. USDA engineer specs/designs the entire system; rural water companies design/systems engineer nods when prompted for approval. PVC pipe is available in several schedules (pipe thickness), typical to use the thinest available. Installation typically consists of slipping together the gasketed joints of miles of PVC alongside of an open trench then sliding the pipe over the side/dropping into the trench (IE not properly bedded/installer per mfg specs). No inspections of the project except by the USDA engineer who speced the system and the rural water engineer who nodded when prompted. Elected pols not willing to get intervene with a protected sacred white cow (even though the thing is a leftover from clinton).

    Iowa Dept of Natural Resources (water oversight body in Iowa) does not allow hydrants on anything smaller than 6" main. As mentioned, line in question is a 15" transmission line some 50mi. Relay pumping stations located along the main to maintain system pressure. My interest is in the assertion of the USDA/rural water apparatchiks that soft suction can/will damage their system. What might happen to an improperly installed residential plumbing system is impossible to predict and not of particular interest.

    vfddoc's ref is great. Note the weasel words of "vacuum pressures cannot collapse an underground PVC pipe that is properly encased in a soil envelope and exposed to normal service temperatures. Thats the stuff a lawyer will drive a fire truck thru and the point which I'm attempting to counter with this thread (enlarge ammo supply).

    Getting Registered PE on record is a problem for fear of losing out future business from USDA/fed gov't projects (blacklisted). Not hearing about bid opportunities, getting omitted from mailings/solicitataions, not being the 1st one recommended to a community looking for an engineer. Sound a lot like Chicago politics?

    A political fight as well as potentially legal. Unfortunately we will have to find pro bono assitance if goes to courts.

    Keep it coming, if you can come up with an examples of collasing a PVC main.
    Coupla points here. EVERY state does not have this situation. Maryland does not have a Rural Water whatever. And we don't want one.
    And, Everyone in the Federal Government knows about "Blacklisting" and you can bet they also know how much Prison time that they will get for trying it. If you remotely think that there is any undue influence at work on a federal project, CALL THE F.B.I. They want to hear from you. Also, the Government Accountability Office in Washington D.C. investigates similar things. I can get you a contact there. But, I encourage you, and anyone else, to get going and work to upset this mess, and do it in the public eye. You'll be a lot better off for doing it.
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    Are you sure they aren't confusing soft suction and hard suction?

    As others have said, collapsing a main with soft suction is laughable.

    Now, you do see hydrants scattered across the countryside, that have the steamer fitting facing away from the road. This is an obvious attempt to prevent connection with a hard suction.

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    Originally posted by mattlt
    Are you sure they aren't confusing soft suction and hard suction?

    As others have said, collapsing a main with soft suction is laughable.

    Now, you do see hydrants scattered across the countryside, that have the steamer fitting facing away from the road. This is an obvious attempt to prevent connection with a hard suction.
    Or stupidity, you'll see it in cities as well. New construction this is sometimes done temporarily I'm told.

    The Rural water/USDA bozos understand clearly issue is soft suction. They have no end of what if BS.

    Further research with the engineering staff at the largest MFG of PVC pipe and Uni-bell (PVC pipe trade org.). Same answer. Fire pumper truck using soft suction can not collapse a PVC main (as posters here have discussed). There is potential for surging (slamming valves shut or air pockets in a poorly designed system) but well within the safety limits of C900/C901 PVC. NO DANGER of collapse of the mains. Utter BS from USDA/Rural water. Just as I thought. Battle continues in political arena.

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    Now, I agree that with a soft hose you cannot collapse, BUT, depending on the age of the pipes, if they have become brittle, they can crack with negative pressure. Even too much water in the ground can push them in. If you have ever dealt with PVC lines in a building, you know what happens. Things just get old.

    BAClair

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    Several issues have been raised in this thread and all do not really deal with "suction" on the water system. I am not an expert, but have some experience with rural water systems.
    I find it hard to believe using any type of "soft" hose could directly cause new heavy schedule PVC pipe to collape. However, as others have pointed out you don't know what effect you may be having elsewhere on the system.
    I was taught in pump class, and we tell our pump operators, they should never go below 20 PSI. Soft hose sould never be sucking shut. If it is, you are below 20 PSI and probably cavitating your pump. (As others have mentioned---NOT GOOD.)
    The problem I have seen when operators go below 20 PSI deliberately or accidentally is usually with older NON PVC type pipe. The rusty iron pipe or partially cracked tara cotta pipe normally has whatever the system pressure is---50,75,100, etc. PSI pressure to support the pipe. Then we open the valve and take it down to 20 PSI (???OR LESS???) The external pressure on the pipe from many sources, including the weight of the ground can overtake the pipe pressure and allow those pipe faults to collapse or break the pipe. These are probably pipe faults waiting to happen, but the drop in pipe pressure allows it to happen when we are flowing water. If the pump operator is not paying attention and allowing the pressure to approach ZERO the faults are more likely to occurr.
    BB

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    According to the mfg of C900/C901 PVC, this is real water main pipe, not residential, pipe rated to full vacuum. Substantial portion of it's strength is actually derived from the soil (assuming properly bedded). For example a vertical load/attempts to deform pipe by "squishing it" translate into a horizontal load from the pipe to the soil. The soil restrains this change in the shape of the pipe. We have no mains in our area, 100% new installation. Why anyone would use iron in the yr 1990 much less 2005?

    Mfg also said they have no concerns that anything the FD does with a pumper/soft suction causes them any concerns about damaging the main. A plumber/homeowner that has an improper meter/water hookup is outside of the predictible or what I'm going to concern myself with.

    All plastics exposed to the atmosphere, particularily to sunlight are exposed to UV degregation/oxidation reduction. Buried PVC main expected life exceeds 100yrs, or so the mfg say.

    End answer is USDA/Rural water is full of it.

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