1. #1
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    Default DC eng 10 vs. Kentland 33?

    I do not work with either company. I am using these two hard working companies to make a point. How can Kentland claim to be the second busiest engine company in the country? Now before all of the PG boys jump on me, let me explain. Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree. Here it goes. DC eng 10 and Kentland eng 331 both get a call at the same time within their respective first due area. Now while they are working this first assignment, a second call comes in for their first due area. DC sends another engine company to the call, Kentland sends engine 332. So statistical DC eng 10 went on one call, while Kentland eng 33 went on two calls. So here is the problem, it's like comparing apples to oranges. Kentland Engine 33 runs three pieces of equipment, DC eng 10 runs one. So how can you compare the numbers the two run, or how can Kentland be compared to any urban engine company. Am I wrong? I mean no disrespect to the guys from Kentland, they are extremely busy station. They run more in a weekend then I do in a month. But you just can't compare three rigs running calls under the flag of eng co 33, to any urban company running only one. Maybe kentland reports their numbers to the firehouse survey to reflect that. I don't know. Does the Webteam know? or can they find out? What do you think?

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    Interesting question, although I don't know anything about either Kentland or DC. BUT, there has always been some debate as to how to classify a "run"...say, for example, a typical first alarm structure fire response in your area is two engines and a ladder. Is that one run, or three? In some areas, that would count as three...1 run for each piece of apparatus responding, although it was actually only 1 incident.

    So when you read run totals, for example in Firehouse's annual run survey, how are they reporting? Number of incidents the department responded to, or number of resposes by individual unit? I can see where some departments' "run totals" could be inflated 3 or 4 times higher than the actual number of incidents they responded to!

    How do you guys do it?



    But you just can't compare three rigs running calls under the flag of eng co 33, to any urban company running only one.
    ...and this adds an even different twist to my example....multiple units running multiple calls as the same unit? I've never really heard of this...maybe multiple units responding to different calls from the same station, but as the same engine? Is this actually the case in Kentland? How about anywhere else?
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    I think Jimmy's just a lil confused. I don't think they count the other pieces as a run for the Engine 33........ But, I believe they do count the FD's total runs as how Dwayne explained it....... 3 pieces responding to 1 run = 3 runs.........
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    Talking

    YO hwoods a little help here, please!

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    This is always a well tried trick for smaller Brigades in the UK to try to **** on London's Parade...

    We do it properly, count calls to a Station by actual incidents... not on machines turning out.

    So an average Inner City London Station does about 3000 calls per year...we then have the good ol' p@nis envy boys saying..."yeah, yeah, but, but we do 6000 calls so there".....trouble is they are talking about their one City Station with two pumps an aerial, a rescue and they count every turnout...so if all 4 go out on one call, they count it as 4.

    Purely and simply, Number of CALLS means just that....the number of incidents attended by that Station, nothing to do with the number of machines who went on it.

    Busy by us is then further broken down into Structure fires and 'Make ups' (Request for additional pumps) what you would call multi alarms.

    So, a Station in Central London, Soho, who claim to be the busiest in Europe...may be just that with their 9000 calls.... but they may only have 300 fires in a year and maybe 10 make ups. Spending most of the day and night running from one AFA to another.

    Conversely, a Station such as West Norwood in South London, they have around 3500 calls, but near on 1000 of them are fires and with a good 'Make up' every few days they are going to be right up there.
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    Personal opinion...when I care about the number of runs someone makes, then I'll care about how to count them.

    100+ guys die each year. Who gives a rats butt about something as lame as "busiest in country".
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Maryland is famous for inflating run numbers ( no disrespect, y'all have some very busy stations), but a house with 4 units ( engine, truck,rescue,ambulance) responds to a structure and its counted as 4 runs?

    When you start to see stations with 20,000 runs in a year, you have to wonder. That would be 54.97 runs a day. You would not need a station 'cause you would never be in it.

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    Question

    I thought that Kentlands just claimed to be the busiest Volunteer station, not busiest overall........
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    To ponder more of a question. If a man speaks in the woods and no woman is around to hear it is he still wrong?

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    Originally posted by trooperthorn
    To ponder more of a question. If a man speaks in the woods and no woman is around to hear it is he still wrong?

    YES!!!!!
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    Here's an idea:

    How about everyone that's contributed to this useless thread by a troll go over to Bou's post about the art of reading smoke and contribute some information that's actually useful, on a topic that actually matters.

    Now...I've got some reports to get back to.

    One last thought...if the only thing you can find to argue about is how you count your calls...it's only further evidence we live in one hell of a great place & time.
    Trolls? We don't need no stinking Trolls.
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    I believe PG County sends in the stats for calls to firehouse not each individual companyas far as counting runs here is how i think they do it. House fire and Kentland has three crews ( 2 Engines and Tower/Rescue engine) Dispatched 1st and second due wagons and 1st due special service. the county only considers that 1 engine run and 1 tower run. now if e331 runs call and while they are out e332 gets a call thats counted as different run, but now they are not all counted as e331, the county just records total number of engine call for kentland wagons and send them in.

    Now I could be wrong, maybe hwoods can help out.

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    Seems kinda strange to count "multiple runs" for a single tone to a single incident. No matter how many or how few vehicles turn out for the run, it is only ONE. Diff'nt Strokes for Diff'nt Folks I guess.

    That being said, if you get a second tone to a second incident, and send resources, then yes of course that counts as a SECOND run. We've had days like that - not often but a few.

    One Tone, One Run. No more - no less.
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    We look at two different ways as far as counting runs.

    1) Overall number of incidents. Ie. a house fire, no matter how many rigs respond, is one run.

    2) We also keep track of how many runs each company responds to. While the same house fire above is reported as 1 incident in number of runs for the year, we keep track of how many times each rig goes out the door.

    We had 5231 runs for the whole dept. last year. My company responded to 2966 of them. That includes EMS, fires, automatic alarms, 1050's,and so on. About 1600 were in our own still district. My house runs an engine and an ALS medic. If we both go out on a run, that counts as 1 run, since we operate as 1 company together for almost everything.

    Why keep track of how many runs we go on? I have learned to many times over when it comes down to justifying our existance to the Mutts and budget slashers that proving where the greatest need is has a great deal to do with response times as well as how many runs each company goes on.

    Its all about record keeping. Remember, we are the ones that respond to the runs, generate the reports that state who went where and what it was. The Mutts can not generate any document saying we didnt go on X anount of fires to justify closing firehouses, slashing the budget, or reducing the work force if we document properly and precisely.

    Good or bad, there is pride involved when deemed the busiest company (whether in your own dept. or in Firehouse). My company certainly has no problem boasting being the busiest in our city.

    100+ guys die each year. Who gives a rats butt about something as lame as "busiest in country".
    There is something to be said here. We are on record pace this year. Not for the good. I believe friendly competition and rivalry is healthy, but it seems we need to redirect some of our energy to more pressing matters. I encourage all of you to convince your own dept. in one way or another to participate in Stand Down For Firefighter Safety Day on June 21st. My dept. is planning to make a whole week out of it so each shift will benefit including safety blitzes, reviews of safety procedures, firefighter fitness/nutrition, hands on evolutions, and more to come.

    http://daily.iaff.org/052505SD.htm

    http://www.iafc.org/standdown/

    I'll quit jacking my jaws by quoting a an old TV show. It was a statement made on almost every show. "Let's be Careful Out There!"

    It wasn't a fireman who said it, but I think its more than fitting.

    fieldseng2

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    Originally posted by GimliOnFire
    Here's an idea:

    How about everyone that's contributed to this useless thread by a troll go over to Bou's post about the art of reading smoke and contribute some information that's actually useful, on a topic that actually matters.

    Now...I've got some reports to get back to.

    One last thought...if the only thing you can find to argue about is how you count your calls...it's only further evidence we live in one hell of a great place & time.
    Well please accept my apologies for answering a thread and passing on some experiences from my side of the pond....

    If you feel so strongly about serious stuff...LODD's for instance, then you may want to add a little to the thread that is fast disappearing down page 2!!!! HERE
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    Default DCFD Engine 10 and Kentland Volunteers

    Here is a discussion topic I have used in a college fire administration class:

    The Firehouse 2003 run survey shows the following top four engine companies:
    1) Washington DC, Engine 10 (Trinidad): 6,709 runs
    2) PG County, Engine 33 (Kentland Volunteers): 6,325 runs
    3) Los Angeles County, Engine 33: 5,885 runs
    4) Los Angeles City, Engine 57: 5,760 runs

    Trinidad Engine 10 has been the busiest engine in DC for over a decade. A 1+1 medic ambulance is also assigned to Station 10, along with Truck 13. 76% of Engine 10's runs are for medical locals.

    Engine 10 "House of Pain" website: http://www.10engine.com/
    From 1998 to 2000 DCFD Engine 10's total annual responses have hovered around 7000 runs. The number of those runs as ems 1st responder increased by over 900 incidents - about three more ems responses every 24 hours. They remain in the top five (of 33 engines) in the number of working structure fires handled every year.

    Kentland Volunteers run four units under the engine company designation. Engine 331, Engine 332, Mini-pumper 33 and Rescue Engine 33. In addition, it operates Tower 33. It is common to have enough staffing to get three of the five units on the road 24/7/365.

    The surrounding fire stations in PG county have thin career staffing during the day (4 employees to staff an engine and ambulance 7am to 3pm) and irregular evening/weekend volunteer staffing. This means that 33 gets dispatched to additional fire incidents to:
    1. Assist understaffed engine companies (driver only or two person engines)
    2. Respond in place of scratched companies (units that did not get out because no one was at the fire station to staff the rig)
    You should listen to PGFD dispatch for a couple of dozen hours to appreciate the dynamics of this unique urban county.

    Because they have no ambulance or medic unit, the Kentland engine company runs every EMS call in 33s district. MiniPumper 33 is staffed 100% of the time and is the primary ems 1st responder. Each 1st responder ems run by MP33 counts as an engine run. http://www.kentland33.com/

    By the way, DCFD 10 Engine and Kentland 33 are 7.5 miles from each other.

    Los Angeles County Engine 33 serves the City of Lancaster area and runs with Quint 33 and Paramedic Squad 33. Many fire runs are grass/ wildland. The fire department is a BLS/ALS first responder, using commercial ambulances for transport. Engine 33 will run the second EMS emergency as a first responder if the Squad is on another call. Engine 33 is NOT a "paramedic assessment" engine

    LAFD Engine 57 is a single piece pumper without enhanced ems capabilities. There is a paramedic ambulance, a basic ambulance and an ems supervisor also assigned to Station 57. Most of Engine 57's ems runs are for life-threatening emergencies in 57s district. According to LAFD statistics, Engine 57 averages 17.3 runs every 24 hours, spending 4 hours and 38 minutes on emergency activity.

    Both DCFD Engine 10 and LAFD Engine 57 lost members while battling structure fires within the last 15 years.

    LAFD Engine 57 runs the most structure fires of the four companies profiled.

    Kentland Volunteers, with three to five units staffed 24/7/365, handles more structure fires than LAFD Engine 57 when you COMBINE the workload of all of 33's units. That includes situations where Kentland units are operating at two or three different structure fires at the same time.

    There are other fire companies that run more structure fires than LAFD Engine 57 - such as LAFD Engine 9 - and there are some engine companies that have a higher percentage of working structure fires than the four companies profiled here.

    The fire administration class discussion covers the valuelessness of a simple national list of responses, salaries, incidents, etc. in understanding workload, safety, community needs, etc. You need more than a ranked list to make decisions or evaluate situations.

    Mike Ward
    departing Fire Science Program Head
    NVCC http://www.nvcc.edu/home/mward/

    Assistant Professor
    EMS Management
    The George Washington University
    Last edited by MikeWard; 04-19-2006 at 01:50 PM. Reason: remove inaccurate statement

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    we havent had this one in awhile and from previous discussions whta '77 said is true. Bones I too agree there are much better things to worry about besides this but felt the urge to chime in ....
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    Default Re: DCFD Engine 10 and Kentland Volunteers

    Originally posted by MikeWard
    Kentland Volunteers run four units under the engine company designation. Engine 331, Engine 332, Mini-pumper 33 and Rescue Engine 33.

    Because they have no ambulance or medic unit, the Kentland engine company runs every EMS call in 33s district. MiniPumper 33 is staffed 100% of the time and is the primary ems 1st responder. Each 1st responder ems run by MP33 counts as an engine run. It appears that the 2003 engine company run number includes every response from Kentland, including Tower 33. VFD website http://www.kentland33.com/
    This is basically the answer to your question. An engine call for Kentland includes calls for the minipumper or rescue engine. The majority of calls that Kentland receives are of a medical nature where they will send two guys in a pickup truck, keeping the engine in service, ready for a fire call. An engine call for DCFD engine 10 is only a call for the engine. For every call that E10 gets, they load up the engine with 4 (or more) guys and go to the call. They can't go to another call until they clear their current call and there is no crew waiting back at the station that can take another call in the area.

    Before I make this next statement, let this be known. Kentland is a group of highly dedicated volunteers that serve relentlessly, even with very little support from the county or community. Also, Kentland sees A LOT of fire, just check out their website. I don't have official PG county statistics, but it is pretty much well known that engine company 33 isn't even the busiest engine in Prince George's County. How they rank second on the list of busiest engines in the country is through manipulation of their run numbers. However, that is a great recruiting tool for a department that relies ENTIRELY on volunteers for staffing of an engine, rescue engine, and tower at a station that runs about 20 calls a day. Whatever recruting tools are necessary to get people in the door, I commend them for it.

    Eric

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    Guys, how 'bout you move on to something useful? And Mike Ward gave an excellent explanation with the keyword being near the end -- the uselessness of these simple statistics.


    [/i]How they rank second on the list of busiest engines in the country is through manipulation of their run numbers.[/i]

    From the Department of Widen Your Perspective:

    It is *not* manipulation if that is the way they record their data.

    There is no national standard on how you measure runs / calls.

    To my mind, a call = 1 incident.

    To my mind, a run = 1 unit leaves the station.

    You're a department. Have a minor motor vehicle. Needs 1 Engine, but 3 ambulances.

    It's one call. It's one Engine run, and 3 ambulance runs.

    If you're the Chief of that Department preparing next year's budget request, simply saying it was "one ambulance call" really distorts the nature of the incident. Much better to record this as "3 Ambulance Runs" because that reflects the nature of utilization of the resource(s).

    Saying someone is manipulating when:
    1) They're simply accounting different than you
    and
    2) There are no nationally recognized "rules" how to count these
    and
    3) The true value in the information isn't to someone taking a crap reading Firehouse in the fire station john, but to the department Administrators preparing their budgets...so the local department should have the discretion how they record their data

    GIVE IT UP and go find something that is actually useful other than taking a **** on the job.

    Grrrr...
    Trolls? We don't need no stinking Trolls.
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    Default London Fire

    Stevedude, Can you tell how big L.F.B is. How many station's, Fire Fighter's per Company. Etc..etc. Thanks Levi

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    Levi,
    Oh Boy, you are gonna regret asking this......here we go:

    LFB is the third biggest Fire Brigade in the World after Tokyo with 18,000 staff and FDNY with 12,000 staff.

    We have 7,000 running out of 112 Full time Stations. 2/3rds of the Stations (those with more than 2000 calls) have Two Pumps (Called Pump Ladder and Pump the difference being one has a 45 ft ladder the other has a 35 ft ladder) The remainder of the Stations have a Pump Ladder only.

    Each Station has a Station Commander (Batt Chief) with 4 Watches (shifts) Red, White, Blue and Green. At a 2 Pump Station they have a Station Officer (Capt) Sub Officer (Lt) a Leading Firefighter and 10 Firefighters...at a one Pump Station they have a Sub Officer a Leading Firefighter and 5 Ff's... on each Watch, making 53 at a 2 appliance Station and 29 at a one pumper (including the Stn Commander)

    Obviously this changes where Stations have other appliances.

    WE don't use aerials like you Guys (Truckies) we use them purely as water towers or for rescue. We used to have 20 aerials but now we are down to 11...

    There are 10 Rescue Companies (Fire Rescue Units) 4 soon to be 8 Command Units and a Major Command unit at HQ. We also have in varying numbers...Hose Layers, Water carriers, BA Major Incident Units, BA lorries (Cylinders, Gas Tights and spare BA) Scientific support units (Hazmat's), Bulk Foam Tenders, Damage Control Units, Hygeine Units, USART Units, Fire Investigation Units...

    From the Goverment in readiness for terrorism we also have Major Pumps, (to pump water in or out over miles..i.e floods or massive loss of water supply) Mass Decon units, Heavy Rescue Vehicles and some more stuff I can't remember.

    The LFB does no Medical response at all, that is handled by London Ambulance Service. WE attend approximately 300,000 calls per year with over 50,000 of those being fires (about 28,000 in structres, the remainder are rubbish, outdoor and so on). According to some report that surfaced during the Fire dispute of 2002/3 the LFB is the busiest FB for fires per Firefighter in the World?

    The busiest Station for actual calls is Soho in Central London with around 9000 the quietest is Biggin Hill on the southern Boundaries with just a few Hundred. The busiest Working Stations handle around 4000 calls with a quarter of them being fires. These are in the inner city Ghetto areas such as Tottenham, Hackney, Dagenham, Brixton and so on....

    The Brigade is run by a Uniformed Commissioner, with a Deputy and Six Assistant Commissioners...all Uniformed Officers (at this time) On the Operational side there are 3 command areas Eastern, Western & Southern, but we are divided up into 6 groups with a Senior Divisional Officer in charge of each group. Each of these is then run, in keeping with the rest of London in Boroughs... there are 33 Boroughs in London and the Police & Fire brigade are managed locally to fit in with the Boroughs...the Borough Commander is a Divisional Officer (Dep Chief) and he will have on average 3-6 Stations in the Borough, all headed by a Station Commander as I mentioned earlier.

    I think that's about it.... Proud to be part of it??? Cut me open and LFB runs out of my veins!!!
    Steve Dude
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    Originally posted by GimliOnFire
    Guys, how 'bout you move on to something useful? And Mike Ward gave an excellent explanation with the keyword being near the end -- the uselessness of these simple statistics.

    If you don't like it, don't read it. He asked a question, we provided an answer.

    How they rank second on the list of busiest engines in the country is through manipulation of their run numbers.

    From the Department of Widen Your Perspective:

    It is *not* manipulation if that is the way they record their data.


    It is manipulation when you compare apples to oranges. It is misleading when a reader is led to believe that they are being compared on the same grounds and an explanation is not made. When a reader views these statistics, they are misled into believing that Kentland Engine Company 33 runs the second most calls of any engine company in the country. In fact, they aren't even the busiest engine in Prince George's County. DCFD Engine 10 does not count the calls that the truck and medic housed in their station. There should either be a standardization of statistics or an explanation of how a company differs in collecting their run statistics.


    There is no national standard on how you measure runs / calls.


    You are correct. However, if one is to legitimately compile statistics, a standardization must be made of precisely what defines each statistic. Otherwise, numbers can be skewed and the entire exercise is unreliable and worthless.

    To my mind, a call = 1 incident.

    To my mind, a run = 1 unit leaves the station.


    What you or I believe constitutes a run is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the statistics are being listed without regard to their accuracy.

    You're a department. Have a minor motor vehicle. Needs 1 Engine, but 3 ambulances.

    It's one call. It's one Engine run, and 3 ambulance runs.

    If you're the Chief of that Department preparing next year's budget request, simply saying it was "one ambulance call" really distorts the nature of the incident. Much better to record this as "3 Ambulance Runs" because that reflects the nature of utilization of the resource(s).


    Why not list both? It is reasonable to list both the number of unique calls for service and unit responses. Both statistics are useful and important in achieving the goals you mention.

    Saying someone is manipulating when:
    1) They're simply accounting different than you


    They are not accounting different from me, my station counts runs with the same method that Kentland does, but again, that is irrelevant. They are accounting runs differently than DC, which is misleading. I'm not saying that either is wrong, only that the comparison is useless because it is oranges and apples.

    2) There are no nationally recognized "rules" how to count these


    True.

    3) The true value in the information isn't to someone taking a crap reading Firehouse in the fire station john, but to the department Administrators preparing their budgets...so the local department should have the discretion how they record their data

    Whether Kentland runs 10,000 calls this year or 10, their budget will still remain less than your mortgage, just like nearly every other station in Prince George's County. The value for Kentland in maximizing this statistic is recruiting, which is vital in an all-volunteer, extremely busy station.

    GIVE IT UP and go find something that is actually useful other than taking a **** on the job.

    Grrrr...
    Hope you feel better.

    Have a great day.

    Eric

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    Kentland 33 is the busiest Engine in the County, but they are far from being the busiest Station in the County and they are not the busiest for working incidents.

    I look more at the Stations than the Apparatus. A Station with an Engine, Ladder, BLS unit and an ALS unit that runs its arse off means more than a Station who:

    A)REFUSES to provide EMS transport service to it's citizens
    B)Runs something on Every EMS call in their area, even when tying up a Fire Suppression unit is not necessary (ie; Mini-Pumper 33 running an injured finger with a BLS unit coming from 33's First Due area) just to make the numbers look good.
    C)Has a membership that is 85-90% White Males from out of State in an area that is 97% Black. (These guys are just there for the action, they could care less about the people. They just wanna go back to Pennsylvania with their Kentland T-shirts)
    D)REFUSES to recognize thier Sub-Station (Company 46) which is fully career staffed 24/7 (More like "Kentland VFD, 75% Volunteer...)

    Don't believe everything you hear. 80% of the incoming funds to Company 33 are from Company 46's area (Company 46 has some of the most Affluent Black Upper Class in the Country living in it;s first due)

    Yeah, they are busy, they got some good guys there that have been there for years and are true Firemen. But to even compare them to DCFD Engine 10 or a company in the FDNY or LAFD is ridiculous.

    Wake up and smell the coffee, there are 46 Firehouses in this county, and most of them are too busy running calls and fires to worry about a website to draw membership from.
    Proud Right-Wing Extremist since 1992

    "Extreme Liberalism is a Mental Disorder"- Michael Savage

  24. #24
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    Default Just sayin'

    I am guessing you ride in PG also...it's so funny to hear people who have probably never even set foot in the state sit on thewatchdesk.com or here and get a hard on for Kentland. whatever.
    What's really ashame is that people think Kentland is the only place to catch fire in PG. The Southside is plenty busy for most folks. If people want to get experience and make a difference they should join places like District Heights 26 (most working fires for PG county last year), Seat Pleasant 8, Boulevard Heights 17, Silver Hill 29, just to name a few. Any of those should get your rocks off, and they could actually use the members!
    Last edited by 3HookNHose; 06-04-2005 at 02:45 AM.

  25. #25
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    Originally posted by TillerMan25 Wake up and smell the coffee, there are 46 Firehouses in this county, and most of them are too busy running calls and fires to worry about a website to draw membership from.
    you know, not for nothing, but after reading what 3HookNHose said about District Heights having the most fires, I was interested in learning more about the department. maybe if I had the free time, even driving the 4 hours from NJ to PG county to ride with a busy FD.

    and you know what I found when I tried to gather more information? NOTHING. no website. no run stats. nothing to mention all the fires they got. nothing saying what apparatus they have, or how many members, or that they even needed members. or even a person to contact if you were interested in joining. only a phone number that I would imagine rang at the station (and I wasn't going to be calling them at 4am).

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Departments need to have a website, they need to have a semi professional looking website, and they need to publicize it. give the public a glimpse of what you do. tell them how to join.

    kentland is 100% volunteer, they list all their members on their site, pictures of their calls, stats of how many runs they do. and people see this, and they want to drive 4 hours just to ride with them. is it entirely accurate? eh, probably not. it a lot of it spin? probably. would you know from the site? absolutely not. all you see if pictures of fire at call they do go, pictures of pin jobs, and them saying how they ran their asses off. now that is a great PR job, and it's why people want to join Kentland, and not some of the other companies in PG.

    btw, thanks Mike for your post, it helped clear a lot up.
    If my basic HazMat training has taught me nothing else, it's that if you see a glowing green monkey running away from something, follow that monkey!

    FF/EMT/DBP

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