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  1. #1
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    Default DC eng 10 vs. Kentland 33?

    I do not work with either company. I am using these two hard working companies to make a point. How can Kentland claim to be the second busiest engine company in the country? Now before all of the PG boys jump on me, let me explain. Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree. Here it goes. DC eng 10 and Kentland eng 331 both get a call at the same time within their respective first due area. Now while they are working this first assignment, a second call comes in for their first due area. DC sends another engine company to the call, Kentland sends engine 332. So statistical DC eng 10 went on one call, while Kentland eng 33 went on two calls. So here is the problem, it's like comparing apples to oranges. Kentland Engine 33 runs three pieces of equipment, DC eng 10 runs one. So how can you compare the numbers the two run, or how can Kentland be compared to any urban engine company. Am I wrong? I mean no disrespect to the guys from Kentland, they are extremely busy station. They run more in a weekend then I do in a month. But you just can't compare three rigs running calls under the flag of eng co 33, to any urban company running only one. Maybe kentland reports their numbers to the firehouse survey to reflect that. I don't know. Does the Webteam know? or can they find out? What do you think?


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber dmleblanc's Avatar
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    Interesting question, although I don't know anything about either Kentland or DC. BUT, there has always been some debate as to how to classify a "run"...say, for example, a typical first alarm structure fire response in your area is two engines and a ladder. Is that one run, or three? In some areas, that would count as three...1 run for each piece of apparatus responding, although it was actually only 1 incident.

    So when you read run totals, for example in Firehouse's annual run survey, how are they reporting? Number of incidents the department responded to, or number of resposes by individual unit? I can see where some departments' "run totals" could be inflated 3 or 4 times higher than the actual number of incidents they responded to!

    How do you guys do it?



    But you just can't compare three rigs running calls under the flag of eng co 33, to any urban company running only one.
    ...and this adds an even different twist to my example....multiple units running multiple calls as the same unit? I've never really heard of this...maybe multiple units responding to different calls from the same station, but as the same engine? Is this actually the case in Kentland? How about anywhere else?
    Chief Dwayne LeBlanc
    Paincourtville Volunteer Fire Department
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    "I have a dream. It's not a big dream, it's just a little dream. My dream ó and I hope you don't find this too crazy ó is that I would like the people of this community to feel that if, God forbid, there were a fire, calling the fire department would actually be a wise thing to do. You can't have people, if their houses are burning down, saying, 'Whatever you do, don't call the fire department!' That would be bad."
    ó C.D. Bales, "Roxanne"

  3. #3
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
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    I think Jimmy's just a lil confused. I don't think they count the other pieces as a run for the Engine 33........ But, I believe they do count the FD's total runs as how Dwayne explained it....... 3 pieces responding to 1 run = 3 runs.........
    The comments made by me are my opinions only. They DO NOT reflect the opinions of my employer(s). If you have an issue with something I may say, take it up with me, either by posting in the forums, emailing me through my profile, or PMing me through my profile.
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    Talking

    YO hwoods a little help here, please!

  5. #5
    MembersZone Subscriber SteveDude's Avatar
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    This is always a well tried trick for smaller Brigades in the UK to try to **** on London's Parade...

    We do it properly, count calls to a Station by actual incidents... not on machines turning out.

    So an average Inner City London Station does about 3000 calls per year...we then have the good ol' p@nis envy boys saying..."yeah, yeah, but, but we do 6000 calls so there".....trouble is they are talking about their one City Station with two pumps an aerial, a rescue and they count every turnout...so if all 4 go out on one call, they count it as 4.

    Purely and simply, Number of CALLS means just that....the number of incidents attended by that Station, nothing to do with the number of machines who went on it.

    Busy by us is then further broken down into Structure fires and 'Make ups' (Request for additional pumps) what you would call multi alarms.

    So, a Station in Central London, Soho, who claim to be the busiest in Europe...may be just that with their 9000 calls.... but they may only have 300 fires in a year and maybe 10 make ups. Spending most of the day and night running from one AFA to another.

    Conversely, a Station such as West Norwood in South London, they have around 3500 calls, but near on 1000 of them are fires and with a good 'Make up' every few days they are going to be right up there.
    Steve Dude
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  6. #6
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Personal opinion...when I care about the number of runs someone makes, then I'll care about how to count them.

    100+ guys die each year. Who gives a rats butt about something as lame as "busiest in country".
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  7. #7
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    Maryland is famous for inflating run numbers ( no disrespect, y'all have some very busy stations), but a house with 4 units ( engine, truck,rescue,ambulance) responds to a structure and its counted as 4 runs?

    When you start to see stations with 20,000 runs in a year, you have to wonder. That would be 54.97 runs a day. You would not need a station 'cause you would never be in it.

  8. #8
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Question

    I thought that Kentlands just claimed to be the busiest Volunteer station, not busiest overall........
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  9. #9
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    Default

    To ponder more of a question. If a man speaks in the woods and no woman is around to hear it is he still wrong?

  10. #10
    Forum Member PFire23's Avatar
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    Originally posted by trooperthorn
    To ponder more of a question. If a man speaks in the woods and no woman is around to hear it is he still wrong?

    YES!!!!!
    To the world you might be one person, but to one person you just might be the world.

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  11. #11
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    Default

    Here's an idea:

    How about everyone that's contributed to this useless thread by a troll go over to Bou's post about the art of reading smoke and contribute some information that's actually useful, on a topic that actually matters.

    Now...I've got some reports to get back to.

    One last thought...if the only thing you can find to argue about is how you count your calls...it's only further evidence we live in one hell of a great place & time.
    Trolls? We don't need no stinking Trolls.
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  12. #12
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    I believe PG County sends in the stats for calls to firehouse not each individual companyas far as counting runs here is how i think they do it. House fire and Kentland has three crews ( 2 Engines and Tower/Rescue engine) Dispatched 1st and second due wagons and 1st due special service. the county only considers that 1 engine run and 1 tower run. now if e331 runs call and while they are out e332 gets a call thats counted as different run, but now they are not all counted as e331, the county just records total number of engine call for kentland wagons and send them in.

    Now I could be wrong, maybe hwoods can help out.

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber MalahatTwo7's Avatar
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    Seems kinda strange to count "multiple runs" for a single tone to a single incident. No matter how many or how few vehicles turn out for the run, it is only ONE. Diff'nt Strokes for Diff'nt Folks I guess.

    That being said, if you get a second tone to a second incident, and send resources, then yes of course that counts as a SECOND run. We've had days like that - not often but a few.

    One Tone, One Run. No more - no less.
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  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber fieldseng2's Avatar
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    We look at two different ways as far as counting runs.

    1) Overall number of incidents. Ie. a house fire, no matter how many rigs respond, is one run.

    2) We also keep track of how many runs each company responds to. While the same house fire above is reported as 1 incident in number of runs for the year, we keep track of how many times each rig goes out the door.

    We had 5231 runs for the whole dept. last year. My company responded to 2966 of them. That includes EMS, fires, automatic alarms, 1050's,and so on. About 1600 were in our own still district. My house runs an engine and an ALS medic. If we both go out on a run, that counts as 1 run, since we operate as 1 company together for almost everything.

    Why keep track of how many runs we go on? I have learned to many times over when it comes down to justifying our existance to the Mutts and budget slashers that proving where the greatest need is has a great deal to do with response times as well as how many runs each company goes on.

    Its all about record keeping. Remember, we are the ones that respond to the runs, generate the reports that state who went where and what it was. The Mutts can not generate any document saying we didnt go on X anount of fires to justify closing firehouses, slashing the budget, or reducing the work force if we document properly and precisely.

    Good or bad, there is pride involved when deemed the busiest company (whether in your own dept. or in Firehouse). My company certainly has no problem boasting being the busiest in our city.

    100+ guys die each year. Who gives a rats butt about something as lame as "busiest in country".
    There is something to be said here. We are on record pace this year. Not for the good. I believe friendly competition and rivalry is healthy, but it seems we need to redirect some of our energy to more pressing matters. I encourage all of you to convince your own dept. in one way or another to participate in Stand Down For Firefighter Safety Day on June 21st. My dept. is planning to make a whole week out of it so each shift will benefit including safety blitzes, reviews of safety procedures, firefighter fitness/nutrition, hands on evolutions, and more to come.

    http://daily.iaff.org/052505SD.htm

    http://www.iafc.org/standdown/

    I'll quit jacking my jaws by quoting a an old TV show. It was a statement made on almost every show. "Let's be Careful Out There!"

    It wasn't a fireman who said it, but I think its more than fitting.

    fieldseng2

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber SteveDude's Avatar
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    Default

    Originally posted by GimliOnFire
    Here's an idea:

    How about everyone that's contributed to this useless thread by a troll go over to Bou's post about the art of reading smoke and contribute some information that's actually useful, on a topic that actually matters.

    Now...I've got some reports to get back to.

    One last thought...if the only thing you can find to argue about is how you count your calls...it's only further evidence we live in one hell of a great place & time.
    Well please accept my apologies for answering a thread and passing on some experiences from my side of the pond....

    If you feel so strongly about serious stuff...LODD's for instance, then you may want to add a little to the thread that is fast disappearing down page 2!!!! HERE
    Steve Dude
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  16. #16
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    Default DCFD Engine 10 and Kentland Volunteers

    Here is a discussion topic I have used in a college fire administration class:

    The Firehouse 2003 run survey shows the following top four engine companies:
    1) Washington DC, Engine 10 (Trinidad): 6,709 runs
    2) PG County, Engine 33 (Kentland Volunteers): 6,325 runs
    3) Los Angeles County, Engine 33: 5,885 runs
    4) Los Angeles City, Engine 57: 5,760 runs

    Trinidad Engine 10 has been the busiest engine in DC for over a decade. A 1+1 medic ambulance is also assigned to Station 10, along with Truck 13. 76% of Engine 10's runs are for medical locals.

    Engine 10 "House of Pain" website: http://www.10engine.com/
    From 1998 to 2000 DCFD Engine 10's total annual responses have hovered around 7000 runs. The number of those runs as ems 1st responder increased by over 900 incidents - about three more ems responses every 24 hours. They remain in the top five (of 33 engines) in the number of working structure fires handled every year.

    Kentland Volunteers run four units under the engine company designation. Engine 331, Engine 332, Mini-pumper 33 and Rescue Engine 33. In addition, it operates Tower 33. It is common to have enough staffing to get three of the five units on the road 24/7/365.

    The surrounding fire stations in PG county have thin career staffing during the day (4 employees to staff an engine and ambulance 7am to 3pm) and irregular evening/weekend volunteer staffing. This means that 33 gets dispatched to additional fire incidents to:
    1. Assist understaffed engine companies (driver only or two person engines)
    2. Respond in place of scratched companies (units that did not get out because no one was at the fire station to staff the rig)
    You should listen to PGFD dispatch for a couple of dozen hours to appreciate the dynamics of this unique urban county.

    Because they have no ambulance or medic unit, the Kentland engine company runs every EMS call in 33ís district. MiniPumper 33 is staffed 100% of the time and is the primary ems 1st responder. Each 1st responder ems run by MP33 counts as an engine run. http://www.kentland33.com/

    By the way, DCFD 10 Engine and Kentland 33 are 7.5 miles from each other.

    Los Angeles County Engine 33 serves the City of Lancaster area and runs with Quint 33 and Paramedic Squad 33. Many fire runs are grass/ wildland. The fire department is a BLS/ALS first responder, using commercial ambulances for transport. Engine 33 will run the second EMS emergency as a first responder if the Squad is on another call. Engine 33 is NOT a "paramedic assessment" engine

    LAFD Engine 57 is a single piece pumper without enhanced ems capabilities. There is a paramedic ambulance, a basic ambulance and an ems supervisor also assigned to Station 57. Most of Engine 57's ems runs are for life-threatening emergencies in 57ís district. According to LAFD statistics, Engine 57 averages 17.3 runs every 24 hours, spending 4 hours and 38 minutes on emergency activity.

    Both DCFD Engine 10 and LAFD Engine 57 lost members while battling structure fires within the last 15 years.

    LAFD Engine 57 runs the most structure fires of the four companies profiled.

    Kentland Volunteers, with three to five units staffed 24/7/365, handles more structure fires than LAFD Engine 57 when you COMBINE the workload of all of 33's units. That includes situations where Kentland units are operating at two or three different structure fires at the same time.

    There are other fire companies that run more structure fires than LAFD Engine 57 - such as LAFD Engine 9 - and there are some engine companies that have a higher percentage of working structure fires than the four companies profiled here.

    The fire administration class discussion covers the valuelessness of a simple national list of responses, salaries, incidents, etc. in understanding workload, safety, community needs, etc. You need more than a ranked list to make decisions or evaluate situations.

    Mike Ward
    departing Fire Science Program Head
    NVCC http://www.nvcc.edu/home/mward/

    Assistant Professor
    EMS Management
    The George Washington University
    Last edited by MikeWard; 04-19-2006 at 01:50 PM. Reason: remove inaccurate statement

  17. #17
    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    we havent had this one in awhile and from previous discussions whta '77 said is true. Bones I too agree there are much better things to worry about besides this but felt the urge to chime in ....
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: DCFD Engine 10 and Kentland Volunteers

    Originally posted by MikeWard
    Kentland Volunteers run four units under the engine company designation. Engine 331, Engine 332, Mini-pumper 33 and Rescue Engine 33.

    Because they have no ambulance or medic unit, the Kentland engine company runs every EMS call in 33ís district. MiniPumper 33 is staffed 100% of the time and is the primary ems 1st responder. Each 1st responder ems run by MP33 counts as an engine run. It appears that the 2003 engine company run number includes every response from Kentland, including Tower 33. VFD website http://www.kentland33.com/
    This is basically the answer to your question. An engine call for Kentland includes calls for the minipumper or rescue engine. The majority of calls that Kentland receives are of a medical nature where they will send two guys in a pickup truck, keeping the engine in service, ready for a fire call. An engine call for DCFD engine 10 is only a call for the engine. For every call that E10 gets, they load up the engine with 4 (or more) guys and go to the call. They can't go to another call until they clear their current call and there is no crew waiting back at the station that can take another call in the area.

    Before I make this next statement, let this be known. Kentland is a group of highly dedicated volunteers that serve relentlessly, even with very little support from the county or community. Also, Kentland sees A LOT of fire, just check out their website. I don't have official PG county statistics, but it is pretty much well known that engine company 33 isn't even the busiest engine in Prince George's County. How they rank second on the list of busiest engines in the country is through manipulation of their run numbers. However, that is a great recruiting tool for a department that relies ENTIRELY on volunteers for staffing of an engine, rescue engine, and tower at a station that runs about 20 calls a day. Whatever recruting tools are necessary to get people in the door, I commend them for it.

    Eric

  19. #19
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    Default

    Guys, how 'bout you move on to something useful? And Mike Ward gave an excellent explanation with the keyword being near the end -- the uselessness of these simple statistics.


    [/i]How they rank second on the list of busiest engines in the country is through manipulation of their run numbers.[/i]

    From the Department of Widen Your Perspective:

    It is *not* manipulation if that is the way they record their data.

    There is no national standard on how you measure runs / calls.

    To my mind, a call = 1 incident.

    To my mind, a run = 1 unit leaves the station.

    You're a department. Have a minor motor vehicle. Needs 1 Engine, but 3 ambulances.

    It's one call. It's one Engine run, and 3 ambulance runs.

    If you're the Chief of that Department preparing next year's budget request, simply saying it was "one ambulance call" really distorts the nature of the incident. Much better to record this as "3 Ambulance Runs" because that reflects the nature of utilization of the resource(s).

    Saying someone is manipulating when:
    1) They're simply accounting different than you
    and
    2) There are no nationally recognized "rules" how to count these
    and
    3) The true value in the information isn't to someone taking a crap reading Firehouse in the fire station john, but to the department Administrators preparing their budgets...so the local department should have the discretion how they record their data

    GIVE IT UP and go find something that is actually useful other than taking a **** on the job.

    Grrrr...
    Trolls? We don't need no stinking Trolls.
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  20. #20
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    Default London Fire

    Stevedude, Can you tell how big L.F.B is. How many station's, Fire Fighter's per Company. Etc..etc. Thanks Levi

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