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Thread: Rope Memory

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    MembersZone Subscriber mglax13's Avatar
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    Default Rope Memory

    I recently got into a conversation with some guys in my rescue company about keeping the rescue rope knotted at the end when not in use. Their point of view is that we should keep a canadian 8 tied in the end of the rope at all times so that it's one less step at a fire scene. I think that's fine, except that I was once taught that you shouldn't keep knots tied in ropes b\c it forms a memory and the memory weakens the rope. So here's my question. Does keeping it in a knot form a memory thus weakening the rope?
    MFD Truck 2
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    If the knot is loosely tied, there is not a problem. The bend radius in a loosely tied knot is no different than the bends in the rope as it is stuffed into the bag. All you need to do is set the knot and go. I personally don't like leaving knots tied in the bag because that may not be the knot I want to use when I grab the rope. How much time do you really save by pre-tying knots?
    Sometimes, in order to make an operation idiot proof, you must remove the idiot!

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    MembersZone Subscriber Halligan84's Avatar
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    I keep a figure 8 tied in the end of each line with a carabiner attached. Just remember to untie and retie after it has been weighted. We also keep an anchor strap, figure 8 descender and carabiner with each rope for a quick adjustable anchor, lowering system or when hooked to our haul system, a piggy back.

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    Default Canadian 8??

    OK guys...I just gotta ask...what is a "Canadian 8"? Never heard that term in 25 years now. I am guessing it is just another name for the same knot we here in the mountains of WNC know by a differant name, like the "water knot" is also called a "ring bend" or a "retrace overhand" in differant areas...please enlighten me!
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    If you are going to do battle with the devil, you better have a better pitchfork.

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    Talking

    I thought it was a drink!

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    MembersZone Subscriber mglax13's Avatar
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    Default

    Here is my best attempt at instructions through photos. Also, pardon my terminology, none if it is technical obviously.

    Step 1: Make a loop.


    Step 2: Begin as if you were going to tie a regular figure 8, but do not pass the bight through the "8" yet. Instead, lay the rope over the hole you would normall go through.


    Step 3: Pass the rope through as shown.


    Step 4: Slip the bight over the knot as shown in picture.


    Step 5: Pull the double loops in one direction and pull the standing end of the rope in the other to tighten.


    Step 6: Congratulations, it's done and should look like this. This might have another name, but I learned it as the Canadian 8.
    Last edited by mglax13; 07-24-2005 at 02:54 PM.
    MFD Truck 2
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    Ahh I see. Otherwise known as a double loop figure 8. Funny the many different names for these knots. I am Canadian and I have never heard of it referred to as a Canadian 8.

    Just out of curiosity...why bother with a double loop 8? Why not a single loop? When knots break they don't break in the loops so the common thought that having two loops makes things twice as strong is wrong. The double loop 8 is only 2-4% stronger than the single loop and with the single loop you have the option of tying it around an object.
    Sometimes, in order to make an operation idiot proof, you must remove the idiot!

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    MembersZone Subscriber mglax13's Avatar
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    If you make the loops a little longer, you can attach it to two anchors. That way if one anchor fails, the other will still hold. I guess that's the reason, I dunno. I personally use the regular figure 8, but the guy I learned most of my rope work from was a NYPD ESU cop and he's got all these other rope creds and he like swears by this knot at the end of the rope....when I can get a hold of him again, I'll ask him why.
    MFD Truck 2
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    I didn't mean to pick at you about the double loop 8, so apologies if I annoyed you. It is just that I have come across many people that swear by this knot. Everyone I have discussed this with so far has a similar response to yours, stating that it was the way you were taught. There are many instructors out there who have never questioned any of the techniques they teach to others. It seems to be a routine regurgitation of someone elses opinion.

    FYI, if you make the single loop large enough you can also tie it into two anchors. If one anchor fails you are still attached to the other plus you have the ability to tie the single loop 8 directly around the anchors, minimzing gear. If the loop fails in either the single or double the whole thing fails so I will opt for the versatility and ease of tying that the single loop figure 8(figure 8 on a bight) provides.
    Sometimes, in order to make an operation idiot proof, you must remove the idiot!

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    MembersZone Subscriber mglax13's Avatar
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    No worries, you didn't annoy me, you did exactly what these forums are for, you opened up a discussion. I also agree with you on the fact that most people just do things b\c that's the way they were taught. I don't like accepting that answer b\c sometimes there are better ways to do things if you look into it. Usually, depending on the anchors that I'm dealing with, I go with a a single figure 8 on a bight on one anchor, then another figure 8 on a bight on the main anchor a little further down the rope. I think that's sufficient but many people in my deparment swear that this is the only knot and its so much stronger than the figure 8 and I've shown them the proof that it's not and explained that it only adds like 1% more strength, but they're minds can't grasp that. They think that 2 loops means double the strength. I don't even bother arguing with them anymore about it...lol
    MFD Truck 2
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    One of the best ways to prove this is to break some rope. Take a chunk of you rescue rope(6-10ft) and tie a knot in each end. Attach it to two fire trucks and put one in drive until the knot breaks. You should be able to rig this without any hardware which eliminates the projectile hazard. If you need to use any hardware in the demo, you can secure these peices with a seperate horizontal line that is lightly tensioned. Attach a prussik to the line and then to each peice of hardware in the test line. This demo worked wonders for the dinosaurs on my team.
    Sometimes, in order to make an operation idiot proof, you must remove the idiot!

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    MembersZone Subscriber mglax13's Avatar
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    I'm gonna go down tonight and test run it, then I'll show them next time we train.
    MFD Truck 2
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    Forum Member NDeMarse's Avatar
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    We use the bowline on a bight on all of our roof rope bags. Each side has a snap hook and the bowline on a bight is pre-tied on one of the sides (alters each week).

    Just before the knot we have an edge protector which is essentially a modified 12" peice of 2 1/2" hose with some straps sewn in that the rope passes through.

    Prior to my career here, I used the regular figure 8 series of knots, but we didn't pre-tie anything.
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    Default Thanks

    As we discussed in our emails that is what we here in WNC call a double loop eight...and as for all the discussions on which knot to use...I adhere to two very basic questions on all my knots I tie and my systems I build...#1 - Is it safe? #2 Does it work? If the answer is yes, then it is a good knot and a good system...if the answer is no...then hold my beer and watch this yall!!

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