1. #1
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    Question Rescue vs Rescue Pumper vs Quint

    My VFD is about to replace its small rescue/squad. It has a 500 gpm pump on it, primarily responds to traffic accidents and medical calls.

    They propose only having a small cafs system on it. Based on a F550 chassis. They want a small rig so it can make it down the tight driveways when doing med calls.

    My concerns:
    Our second due engine is from a neighboring department that is completely unreliable. We had to use our squad the other day as the relay pumper for an involved structure fire. (porta tank was @ bottom of driveway)We had an interior crew running out of water.

    We do lots of traffic accidents. We have 2 passes and 1 canyon in our first due area. I think we need a big truck to help protect our scene.

    As far as the medical assist to the ambulance goes, Ithink all we should be sending is a suburban or something similar. Why are the extrication tools going way out of position just to carry the gurney out of the house for the ambulance?

    It has been recogonized that we do need a ladder.

    Can we do all we need to do off a quint and a suburban? Or would a rescue pumper be better?

    i tried to make this short so if I need to explain further let me know.

    Thanks for the help.

  2. #2
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    Cool does all equipment

    It sounds like you do more rescue work than fires and that you need a ladder(aerial) too. I am a little confused with exactly what you want or need but I do not think one piece will fit all. I see you are a volunteer unit which means money is definitley a factor. Sounds like you relly need three pieces; a rescue, a pumper and a small or middle size ladder unit(possibly a quint). Is it possible to pick up stuff from a bigger department(used but serviceable) that could fit all these requirements? Do you transport patients? If not then you would not need a full size ambulance unit. How about heavy rescue needs? Sounds like a true needs assesment needs to be done before purchasing.Good luck and keep it safe.

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    lvwrenc,
    I agree we do need all three butt...

    We dont have the room or money at this point in time to build a new station. So one rig is all for now. the suburban could be parked outside.

    I am afraid we are going to paint ourselvs into a corner. I look at other similar departments in the area(we actually have more homes and higher values of those homes inour district) and they have at least 3 pumpers in their stations. Is it silly to not have more pumping capacity?

    Our curent squad has a 500gpm pump, extrication tools, med bags, minamal hose, 2 SCBAs, misc tools, 1 24' ladder, generator, stokes basket. We do not transport patients.

    I guess my main concern is that our secondary pump is going away. And I would think that all the equipment that is on this rig would easily fit on a quint or a rescue pumper, along with the other native equipment to those trucks.

    I agree with the needs assement, however this is a good ol boy department, so the equipment commitee is a joke.

  4. #4
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    Cool decisions

    I figured you were between the rock and the hard spot. How about something like the old Squad 51 set up for medic with a tow situation for a trailer mounted pump and then have a combo pumper/rescue to take care of the big stuff. When someone's stuff burns to the ground or someone gets hurt and things aren't there for them then you will maybe get what you need.

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    I understand that large departments utilize specific built rigs, they have the money, personel, and multiple stations for that model. I know lots of city departments dont like quints. But for a small rural department is it not a good compromise? What do you think we would be sacraficing if we went to a quint or rescue pumper and a suburban?

    The equipment committee is taking a moment of pause so there may truly be an oppertunity here.

    Thanks again.

  6. #6
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    Cool decisions

    Nothing really against a quint. I always look at it from all sides if possible. If I have a aerial/quint I have the best of two worlds but twice as much problem. If the aerial part goes down I don't have a pumper anymore and it may take a lot more time to fix the aerial part than the pump part. Is my water supply enough to flow water from the aerial and supply ground water flow too or is that the purpose? If you can run your medic stuff from the Suburban then go for it. Nothing can handle all of the stuff from one unit. There will always be times when you need stuff in more than one place doing more than one thing. Even though our city has plenty of stuff we still have mutual aid agreements.

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    We have a quint with a 1500 pump, 500 gallons of water and 50 gallons foam (A & B). It has 5" LDH, 3", 2.5" and 1 3/4" lines. It also has full NFPA ladders, full extrication (including bags & struts)and engine & truck equipment (fans, saws, bottles, tools ect.) It also has full ALS equipment. All on an OAL of 37'9" and a wheelbase of 226". So yes, it can be done
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    Talking I have the answer!!!

    Go to the Sutphen website at:

    www.sutphen.com

    Look under the gallery tab and then in the right hand column find the Columbia MO 75' Aerial. The Chief there runs every truck as though it were a pumper......that just happens to have a aerial if needed. Also, with the introduction of Sutphens new 75' climbing ladder that truck could be even better suited to your needs!!!
    I have but one ambition in life and that is to become a firefighter.

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    Dave,

    Thanks, do you like the quint, or do you feel you are over compromising?

    thanks efd.

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    Default Need more info about your Dept. & Community Needs

    Eng1Driver:

    I'd love to help you or confuse you for that matter but we need more info about your Dept. and Community Needs.

    My Dept. just order a Emergency One 75 ft. Quint in May. We're going to use this Quint as our only Aerial as well as our Second Engine (depending on the job). We are a rural community with population nearing 6000. We also run a heavy/lite rescue to a handful of surrounding communities for MVA.

    Drop me an e-mail if you'd like more info

    garth_b9@yahoo.com

    Good Luck
    GB

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    ENG1DRIVER
    With regard to EMS runs, I think our FD operates similar. We basically run medical assist to the local ambulance squad, priority 1 calls, lift assists, etc. It was decided a number of years ago that we wouldn't tie up the rescue or a pumper for these calls and we went with a squad. Initially it was a van, now it is a crew cab C&C with utility body.

    Simultaneous calls aren't routine for us, but they occur with a frequency that called into question having our rescue (with extrication, water rescue equipment, etc.) or an engine tied up on a medical assist.

    Your talking about trading off second engine capabilities for a small rig for medical assists?? Don't know much about your district, but on the surface of it and the incident you described, that doesn't make a lot of sense.

    I definitely think the Suburban route is the way to go on the medical side. Regarding the other rig, that's where it gets tricky. After 19 yrs with volunteer and combination depts and a variety of quint configurations, personally I have a very low opinion of them. We currently operate both a 100 ft. stick aerial, no pump, no tank and a 75 qt RMA quint. Bottom line is that the quint doesn't have much of a role - 75' is too short in many scenarios, its physically large running as a pumper in the older parts of town and it only carries 400 gal of water. Our basic structural response is 2 engines and the 100'aerial. The quint will respond, but it is often a glorified taxi cab for additional personnel.

    Myself personally, I would go the rescue-pumper route given the limited information you have provided. Your dept is talking about giving up second engine capability, I don't think I would be looking at aerial needs, I get the rescue-pumper. Even in our dept, we run a medium duty rescue with extrication equipment, but I think we would serve the district better with 2 rescue-pumpers (1 at each station) with at least extrication equipment.
    Good luck

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    Originally posted by ENG1DRIVER
    Dave,

    Thanks, do you like the quint, or do you feel you are over compromising?

    thanks efd.
    I dont quite follw what you mean by over compromising.

    BTW, yes, we love it.
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    You stated that "It has been recognized that we do need a ladder." Is this purely for elevated master stream operations, or do you actually have buildings that would require an aerial for roof/upper floor access? Station2 who frequents these forums quite a bit put a e-one rescue pumper/quint in service not to long at his volly dept outside of Houston TX that might fit the bill for what you're looking for...decent amount of water, full extrication tool complement, CAFS, and 50ft teleboom.

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    Thanks for all of the replies.

    Our old "Squad", which I am guessing may be better characterized by calling it a mini rescue pumper. Its an old medium duty stantard cab chevy(I dont know what year it is, but it only has lap belts) with a 500 gpm pump, which shouldnt count as a second due engine, and a 12' & 500 gal tank. It is about 4000lbs, or more, over GVWR.

    The replacement rescue that they want to build will only have a mini CAFS on it. Which would be fine if we had a second pumper.

    We do have a few taller buildings in our district. We also do lots of chimney fires on metal roofs with snow on them. The more important issue is that we will be absorbing a small city dept in the next few years that does not have a ladder, but should. Our station 1 is just outside their city limits. Soooo... If we bought just an engine that would be a great duplication of equipment, once the merge took place. So I think a quint makes sense because, buying just a ladder doesent help our pumping abilities right now. There is no way in hell we would buy both a pumper and a ladder and a rescue.

    Another thing is that we do quite a few over-the-bank rescues, that can range from 25' to 100'+, due to MVAs. Do any of you have experience utilizing a ladder for this purpose?

    We did have a demo show up tonight. F550 crew cab 4X4 with a long as box on it. Its wheel base was about a foot longer than our engine! And they wanted small and manuravable!?! I think I could turn the engine around in a smaller area than that thing. Its ground clearance sucked as well.

    Anyway, thanks again, and let me know if more info is needed.

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    I used to be a big fan of the F-550 based quick attack units, but after thinking about it a while, I decided that I like the 4x4 Medium duty class trucks better, for several reasons. 1: Bigger pump. Engine can handle any pump you bolt to it. 2: More compartment space. 3: More water, although you would compromise compartment space. 4: Higher GVWR. Put the same amount of equipment on it as you would the F550, and you will be well under GVWR, which means the truck will handle and stop much better than an overloaded smaller truck, or one loaded close to GVW. 5: The Internationals have an EXTREMELY tight turning radius, and are VERY maneuverable, even though I am a Kenworth fan. Here are a few pictures.
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    Last edited by HFRH28; 06-29-2005 at 06:22 PM.

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    GMC Mini:
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    Default

    Another
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    If a crew cab is a must:
    (Last one)
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