Thread: A VES Scenario

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    Excellent discussion!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Im too lazy (as Nate knows) to sit and try to add to the great posts that have already been made, but I will add one quick thing about a question I saw earlier. In my volly dept, about 80% of our response area are 2 story ranch style with the garage beneath the bedrooms . The garage either faces out on the 1 side or the left or right exposure side, depending in which way they flipped the cookie cutter on that street.
    With a fully involved garage fire and assuming the garage door has held, The biggest and best place to vent is that garage door. the 1st line would go through the front door and down the steps towards the garage. Timing the opening of the garage door with the line placement nearly eliminates the need for VES. the bedrooms above the fire (usually the master bedroom and a smaller bedroom for children) usually can be searched from the inside, unless the stairs are untenable, in which case the only way is through those second floor windows.

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    nyckftbl

    I'm bumping up a thread started by none other than phyrngn, a few months back that discussed exactly what you've brought up regarding Splits and/or High Ranches (2 Story Ranches). (Garage Fires) -- note the first couple of pages where the discussion focused on splits.

    Btw nyckftbl, I concur with your tactics.

    I think I’m gonna start visiting FH forums more often if these types of threads continue to appear and are discussed between knowledgeable bro’s who know what and how to ask and answer the?’s. I’m always learning.
    Last edited by tny; 09-26-2011 at 05:43 PM.

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    nyckftbll,

    As Curt tests out the donkey, I am testing the Ostrich. While stability is a problem, the falls are much shorter!

    Great thread guys. I think I am going to post on the garage thread from March just to get it going again.

    Thanks again and great points and ideas!

    Here is a quick video to reinforce the need to take your time stretching the line and doing it right (chock the doors, chase the kinks, bleed the line, and move in. Watch how fast and smooth an entire apartment full of fire is knocked down when they start their attack.


    Jamaica, Queens Job
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    In the picture on the first page of this page did anyone notice the A/C unit in the window? We were laddering a 2 story row with only moderate smoke coming from that window one night with a woman waving from that window.The A/C unit was encased in an iron cage for support and and anti-theft. The only problem was that it was the only window for the whole room. On her own she made it to an adjacent room and was easily brought down. I'm interested in hearing what others think of this scenario in respect to ladder placement with no porch roof to stand on....like ladder beside or under the sill. Also, if you would do anything with the A/C unit, like taking the risk of knocking it in on the victim or trying to pull it out.

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    R1Salum,

    Tricky, but I like it!

    I am not sure how easily the anti-theft cages are removed to get the victim out. I am guessing you would attack them like most window bars. Given the same situation and the information that you gave us, I think I am going to put the portable ladder under the sill, and push the air conditioner in.

    A couple of reasons for the ladder placement:
    1) My personal opinion is it is much easier to bring a person down a ladder when the ladder is under the window.

    2) Trying to coax anyone (let alone a panicked civilian) to step out of the window and over to the ladder is going to be harder than getting them to step out onto a ladder already under the window.

    3) If the victim goes unconscious now you have to go down and reposition the ladder to effect a rescue

    4) If things turn to hell, you can get out much easier on your belly and onto the ladder to escape

    A couple of reasons to push the air conditioner in:
    1) You are on the tip of a portable ladder with at least one tool. Managing a 30-50 pound air conditioner is not going to be easy.

    2) If you pull it out, you have to drop it. You could hit someone (game over for them).

    3) If you drop it could tumble around. With the momentum of it rolling, it could hit your ladder and knock it out from under you. Especially if you are on a sidewalk or driveway where footing for the ladder might not be the best anyway

    If the victim is conscious they might pull it in. If not, I'm pushing it in with a quick warning to get out of the way. If they don't move, apologize and then help them out of the window. If the victim is unconscious under the sill, I think I am still pushing it in. I probably won't just let it fall on the victim uncontrolled, but I will push it in. Getting my ladder kicked out from under me or hitting someone is not going to help anyone at this fire. The victim might be a little bruised up and sore, but considering their alternative that's not so bad.

    Just my thoughts. Anyone else?
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

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    At that run, the on-duty safety officer was standing behind me and even giggled when we discussed "what would you do." We came to almost exactly the same conclusion as you NDeMarse. I just hope it doesn't ever happen. There was a picture on the homepage of this site of a fire in a boarding house in Iowa, I believe, that had a man in a window with an A/C and some great efforts by the Brothers to save him but he perished. Can anyone find these pics? Also under some training by either Dugan or Lombardo on window units that I will try to find.

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    posted by
    tjsnys
    I think I’m gonna start visiting FH forums more often if these types of threads continue to appear and are discussed between knowledgeable bro’s who know what and how to ask and answer the?’s. I’m always learning.
    These types of topics are what should be talked about on this site. Hopefully we can keep them going. Its important that everyone try's to contribute, even if its only a few words it still keeps things moving and keeps people thinking.


    I am not familiar with the window bars around air conditioners but I would think that it would be much easier to push into the room then to force it though the bars. Again this is just a w.a.g. any input further would be appriciated.

    As for ladder placement I would do the same. Or if time permitted and the resources where there It might be possible to throw a ladder beside the window, remove the A/C unit and gate(still inward) after A/C unit is in building and out of harms way have a second ladder throw beside mine under the window, step over and finish the grab.
    "Train as if your life depends on it"
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    A quick Engine note:

    You will be surprised to know that lines here really don't get stretched that fast (at least where I work). Many parts of the country teach a rush the line, hurry the line, get the line up here quick type of thing. While learning Engine work out here, you find that they spend more time finding a viable hydrant, setting up the stretch, finding the correct entry point, chocking doors, stretching, flaking, charging, and chasing kinks than most departments do. This causes the line to get in to operation a little slower than probably most departments in the country. However, when we do get in to operation we feel very confident that a smooth and steady advance will be made to the seat of the fire to extinguish it. I think this is the right way to do things. Take some time, set up your stretch and everything else will fall in to position.

    Anyone else have any thoughts?
    Great thoughts. I've posted it before however in a former dept. Many were rush rush rush, with the line. There were many officers and all the chiefs who weren't really great tacticians. We had a job in a two story balloon frame PD. There was plenty of smoke, no obvious fire. Reports of trapped occupants on second floor.

    1st Engine stretched a charged line inside front door without looking for the fire first. The 1st Truck was VES the 2nd floor. We performed as the 2nd Engine and were ordered by the chief to stretch a back-up line behind the 1st line. Now remember they hadn't found the fire and they didn't have water on it yet and the smoke was getting much much worse.

    Now we followed into this realtively small and cluttered house with another charged handline and now there are 4 of us crowded into small front room with two charged handlines, smoke and heat getting worse and we still had no f'ing idea where the fire is!

    This is when the officer of the 1st Engine decides that it is time to pull out. Now backing out two handlines with NO Doormen or Control Men was difficult at best and instead of concentrating on getting one line to the fire we were still trying to work with two lines!

    As it turns out the fire was in the cellar and the ONLY access
    was by a few doors in the rear of the house!

    Thank god the fire wasn't any worse than it was. We could have all been dropped into the cellar.

    The luck of some Ohio firemen wasn't as good when a crumpled pile of hose with tons of kinks and no control men led to the death of one member and severe burns on another.

    Poor tactics...poor command decisions.

    Taking the time to properly stretch the handline, chock doors, chase kinks and such is largely overlooked by the simpleton chiefs running many of todays fire departments.

    Don't overlook the proper stretch of handlines as critically important to your safety.

    FTM-PTB

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    Originally posted by NDeMarse
    Here is a quick video to reinforce the need to take your time stretching the line and doing it right (chock the doors, chase the kinks, bleed the line, and move in. Watch how fast and smooth an entire apartment full of fire is knocked down when they start their attack.


    Jamaica, Queens Job
    Great video and yes it really does illustrate your points.
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

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    Can't say that I have ever seen, in my area, a window A/C that was installed from the outside. Therefore, we push them back inside.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Originally posted by WTFD10

    Great video and yes it really does illustrate your points.
    I too agree, this is an outstanding video and valuable tool to be used in training critique’s (both the aada boys and need improvements). Thanks Nate.

    8 minutes after arrival and heavy fire knocked down --- Outstanding job!---considering building type, construction and occupancy. I got a real kick out of the reporter’s narrative of the incident.

    A couple items I’d review with my crew after this incident, being fortunate enough to have access to a film like this:

    Imop
    ·Should the second due Truck (stick) Chauffeur positioned the rig further into the block on side four? The stick could have been raised to the rear of the fire buildings roof a safe distance away from the fire apartment (flames/smoke self venting out windows). May have been able to expedite getting to the roof (opening-up - hatches, scuttles, vent hole and completing the 360 – etc) via ascending the stick as opposed to the interior as well as establishing an immediate secondary means of egress.

    ·Should ground ladders been placed immediately on side 1 and 4 providing an immediate means of egress for bro’s operating in fire apartment –‘s? JIC things turned sour.

    Quite a bit to accomplish in 8-9 min’s, we know the primary’s were done immediately

    Anyone disagree, agree or see anything else. Me gotta keep learning.

    Stay Safe
    Tom
    Last edited by tjsnys; 07-14-2005 at 12:35 PM.

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    Default Cool

    I'm glad to see that we've given the Firergound Tactics Forum a breath of fresh air...keep up the excellent posts...

    Nate...thanks for the AWESOME video. Boy, do I wish that I could see fires run that smooth every time...I like the view of the fire and seeing things unfold. Most videos that I have don't have first due action like that, so it's good to see how everyone knows exactly what to do.

    FFFRED...good to see you chime in. Also, thanks to everyone who revitalized my Garage Fires post.

    This stuff is great, especially for someone who doesn't get to see a lot of fire

    Here's a question (and I think that I have probably brought this up before, but for the sake of continuing the discussion, if you could humor me please )--

    Do you feel that VES is as applicable to new construction (ie Lightweight Trusses, Laminated I-Beams, Truss Joists, etc)as it is in the old Queen Annes, etc.? My contention is that it would be a good tactic to use, as you could more rapidly search the first and second floors of a structure and get out, as the Ol' Professor would suggest. Anyone have any experience with this?

    Again, thank you all...keep the posts coming...

    Nate...dumb question for you...are you and cdemarse related, or is that just a big Ko-inky-dink?

    Tim

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    Default Re: Cool

    Originally posted by phyrngn

    Nate...dumb question for you...are you and cdemarse related, or is that just a big Ko-inky-dink?

    Tim
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    Default Re: Cool

    Originally posted by phyrngn

    Do you feel that VES is as applicable to new construction (ie Lightweight Trusses, Laminated I-Beams, Truss Joists, etc)as it is in the old Queen Annes, etc.? My contention is that it would be a good tactic to use, as you could more rapidly search the first and second floors of a structure and get out, as the Ol' Professor would suggest. Anyone have any experience with this?

    Again, thank you all...keep the posts coming...

    Tim
    IMO I believe there is still a very applicable place for VES in new contruction. One major problem that we face is that building material and building collapse failer happen much sooner with the newer building technology. And some of the newer homes that I have seen lately seem to be getting smaller and smaller hallways upstairs, where it could become a bottleneck with the engine, truck, and search.
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    Ok, been doing some training and learning on this...

    Being near the ocean, new building requirements have led to "Hurricane" proof windows on homes. If you've never seen them, imagine basically double thickness car windshields. They withstand 2x4's being shot at them around 90mph. They do not shatter, they do not look any different than a normal window.

    Put a ground ladder to a second floor window and try to VES with these in place using your normal tools.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I'll have to agree with Curt on the picture above.

    He is better looking in that picture. Thank god for the glare coming through the window though.

    I will further comment on some tactical questions later on tonight
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

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    Originally posted by Bones42
    Ok, been doing some training and learning on this...

    Being near the ocean, new building requirements have led to "Hurricane" proof windows on homes. If you've never seen them, imagine basically double thickness car windshields. They withstand 2x4's being shot at them around 90mph. They do not shatter, they do not look any different than a normal window.

    Put a ground ladder to a second floor window and try to VES with these in place using your normal tools.
    Bones...not a problem....

    I wouldn't try this with a ground ladder, but with an aerial or tower/platform, it's a piece of cake... take the cutter's edge or K-12 and make your own opening in the wall near the window area. you can cut it as big as you like.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Originally posted by Bones42
    Ok, been doing some training and learning on this...

    Being near the ocean, new building requirements have led to "Hurricane" proof windows on homes. If you've never seen them, imagine basically double thickness car windshields. They withstand 2x4's being shot at them around 90mph. They do not shatter, they do not look any different than a normal window.

    Put a ground ladder to a second floor window and try to VES with these in place using your normal tools.
    Bone’s, have you developed any specific techniques to attack these windows when left no alternative. Haligan to the sash -- check rails to force window locks, attack the corners of window sash (window framework) at the seal, etc. I haven’t had much experience/training on Hurricane windows and probably should. Maybe the bro’s from Florida (Dave 1983) could share some techniques with us.

    Stay Safe
    Tom
    Last edited by tjsnys; 07-15-2005 at 09:47 AM.

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    Gonzo, saw works like a champ. Problem is, our OV guy doesn't normally carry one in his initial tool setup. And it's a bitch to run back to the rig when the hose team is telling you to take the window and they have to wait.


    Our procedure at this time is that as soon as these windows are discovered, IC is notified as additional "truckies" will be needed as these windows are labor intensive.

    Different brands (Marvin, Anderson, etc.) have different features. Higher end windows have sashes that interlock when closed so forcing them will be more of a challenge. The "standard" end do not interlock so they can be forced open, but that does not remove them. Also note, the frames of the windows are held in place by metal strapping to the building frame members. We have used a haligan and repeatedly attacked a corner to break the window section out. Averaged about 45 seconds to get 1 section of a double hung window out. Fixed windows are even thicker.

    (there's pictures at IACOJ)

    PS - NJ building codes recently made these windows mandatory for all construction within 1 mile of the ocean. 1 common way around it is for the homeowner to have plywood cut to size, numbered, and on-site for each and every window. Higher end homes are opting for the windows over the plywood.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Default Obstructions

    Okay...How do you guys that routinely VES handle obstructions, such as electrical wires and service drops, trees, etc. I've been sizing up some of our buildings in the district, and noticed a lot of what appear to be insurmountable obstructions. Wires too close to the building, fences that are only about a foot away from the window, etc. Anyone have any tricks?

    Plus, I didn't want to see my thread die just yet

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDeMarse
    A quick Engine note:

    You will be surprised to know that lines here really don't get stretched that fast (at least where I work). Many parts of the country teach a rush the line, hurry the line, get the line up here quick type of thing. While learning Engine work out here, you find that they spend more time finding a viable hydrant, setting up the stretch, finding the correct entry point, chocking doors, stretching, flaking, charging, and chasing kinks than most departments do.
    WOOOOOOOOOO........easy NDeMarse....BRO!!!.....I have no Idea were you work...but I know in the area I work int Da' Bronx...we stretch smoooth and fast taking in all the variables you mentioned........with that said....I TOTALLY agree with you on the whole "rush in" idea......especially with preconnnects..(which to me are......dangerous).... I would venture to say most places teach some sort of variation of a "shorthanded firefighting" concept....were preconnects play a vital role......(but again, to me dangerous, w/o very focused training by SEASONED firemen, not men with time...but Senior men....I'm sure you get my point)....toooooo many (in the vollies) times I have seen SHORT stretches that have turned into multiples when they shouldn't have.
    IACOJ Member

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    Quote Originally Posted by phyrngn
    Okay...How do you guys that routinely VES handle obstructions, such as electrical wires and service drops, trees, etc. I've been sizing up some of our buildings in the district, and noticed a lot of what appear to be insurmountable obstructions. Wires too close to the building, fences that are only about a foot away from the window, etc. Anyone have any tricks?

    Plus, I didn't want to see my thread die just yet


    Portable Ladders Brother.....Portable Ladders......
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    Quote Originally Posted by phyrngn
    Okay...How do you guys that routinely VES handle obstructions, such as electrical wires and service drops, trees, etc. I've been sizing up some of our buildings in the district, and noticed a lot of what appear to be insurmountable obstructions. Wires too close to the building, fences that are only about a foot away from the window, etc. Anyone have any tricks?

    Plus, I didn't want to see my thread die just yet
    In my area, it's not "legal" (and the power company won't connect it) to put a service drop that interferes with a window. As for trees, there ain't much we can do about that in a quick way so a different window is chosen. As for fences, most (but not all) in my area are wood and/or plastic so they can be "removed" quite easily when needed.
    I've been sizing up some of our buildings in the district
    That is a great thing to be doing.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Default Clarifying

    VinnieB,

    You are correct and I apologize for "generalizing" the comment. The lines get into operation quickly. The point I was trying to make (and I think you understand) is that there are many places in the country that do get a line into operation faster than we do, just because of the way they are stretching and the methods that they use.

    Many companies in the country pride themselves on "getting the first line on the fire" even though it might be in the wrong place, stretched short or not adequate. I was stating that we take our time, get the line into the right position using the correct route to the fire, and ALMOST ALWAYS we have a very smooth, rapid advance to the seat of the fire.

    Just clarifying my stance.
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

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