Thread: A VES Scenario

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinnieB
    WOOOOOOOOOO........easy NDeMarse....BRO!!!.....I have no Idea were you work...but I know in the area I work int Da' Bronx...we stretch smoooth and fast taking in all the variables you mentioned........with that said....I TOTALLY agree with you on the whole "rush in" idea......especially with preconnnects..(which to me are......dangerous).... I would venture to say most places teach some sort of variation of a "shorthanded firefighting" concept....were preconnects play a vital role......(but again, to me dangerous, w/o very focused training by SEASONED firemen, not men with time...but Senior men....I'm sure you get my point)....toooooo many (in the vollies) times I have seen SHORT stretches that have turned into multiples when they shouldn't have.
    I gotta say that i disagree with the preconnect comment. Here where I work, we run 95% of our fires with preconnects. It isnt a failure of the preconnect, its a failure of the basic rules of hose stretch estimates. If our lines are too long, we break em, if too short..extend em. we have 200 and 250's so they arent all the same. I cant see it taking any longer than stretching with a static bed. The difference here is we only staff 2 on our first due engine. Welcome to the art of first due with too few people. Wish I could have 5 to stretch my first line. Our first alarm consists of 7 career FF's and varying numbers of volunteers on a good day. Our engine driver is usually responsible for throwing a few ladders and doing OV if we are runnigngshorthanded...whch has been the case at the last few fires.

    Im my expierence over 8 years...I have always used preconnects. The fires we lost were due to poor stragety and tactics, only a few were poor hose estimates.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDeMarse
    VinnieB,

    You are correct and I apologize for "generalizing" the comment. The lines get into operation quickly. The point I was trying to make (and I think you understand) is that there are many places in the country that do get a line into operation faster than we do, just because of the way they are stretching and the methods that they use.

    Many companies in the country pride themselves on "getting the first line on the fire" even though it might be in the wrong place, stretched short or not adequate. I was stating that we take our time, get the line into the right position using the correct route to the fire, and ALMOST ALWAYS we have a very smooth, rapid advance to the seat of the fire.

    Just clarifying my stance.

    Ok I see what your mean now. I wonder how many other departments utilize the 2d due and sometimes even 3d due Engines to stretch the first line. We also have bosses that like to take the rope bucket so we can do a rope stretch up....which is great! especially on those looooooong stretches.
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    VinnieB,

    I worked in Illinois for 3 years before coming out here. I tried to get my department to team up the 1st & 2nd due engines to get the 1st line into operation on more than one occasion. For some reason they just won't do it.

    If we team up with 4 and 5 firefighters arriving on a rig I am not sure why a department arriving with 2 firefighters on a rig would not do the same thing. Instead (in my former department) we would have 2 or 3 dry lines on the ground waiting to make the advance. Very unprofessional in my opinion, but as they say, "It works for us and we ain't New York"! LOL

    I always get a kick out of that line

    Have a good one
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    Preconnects don't play a vital role when your fires can be on the first floor or the 34th and anywhere in between.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610
    I gotta say that i disagree with the preconnect comment. Here where I work, we run 95% of our fires with preconnects. It isnt a failure of the preconnect, its a failure of the basic rules of hose stretch estimates. If our lines are too long, we break em, if too short..extend em. we have 200 and 250's so they arent all the same. I cant see it taking any longer than stretching with a static bed. The difference here is we only staff 2 on our first due engine. Welcome to the art of first due with too few people. Wish I could have 5 to stretch my first line. Our first alarm consists of 7 career FF's and varying numbers of volunteers on a good day. Our engine driver is usually responsible for throwing a few ladders and doing OV if we are runnigngshorthanded...whch has been the case at the last few fires.

    Im my expierence over 8 years...I have always used preconnects. The fires we lost were due to poor stragety and tactics, only a few were poor hose estimates.

    It all depends on your area. Were I work....preconnects are not happening. And if you have to stop a stretch to break a line, get another length, and re- connect...then continue to stretch...to me that just slows the first line down. I think its way easier to pull up will virtually "unlimited" hose...estimate then stretch...pull whats needed....ask the boos if he has enough...then hook up and chace kinks. In 13 years I've used both preconnects and static....but I like stretching off the backstep much better. And yes you can short stretch with a static bed too....as long as you put someone there with experiance...the likleyhood of that happening is less. And in that same 13 years....I've seen fires turn into complete disasters because the first line wasn't stretched or placed properly. The fire goes as the first line goes.....just my thoughts.
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    Preconnects only work for short stretches, by short I mean up to about 300 feet at most. A perfect example would be the other night we caught a job on the 5th floor, normally not a bad stretch, however we had wrap around stairs (around the elevator shaft). The stretch ended up being 12 lenghts. Also without the 2nd due engine the stretch would of been impossible. (Yes vinnieb I was working in the engine that night) I think that just proves how important it is to have multiple engines and how preconnects only work in certain areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefiftyfive
    (Yes vinnieb I was working in the engine that night) .
    Well good! Maybe you can call yourself a fireman now! Instead of a firemans helper.....

    I hope all is well with you....I was in manhattan for an all hands about a month ago I saw your company, but I guess you weren't working.....95/36 first due for a 10-25 code1 that went to a 10-75....and later...manhole started blowing...pretty wild stuff....it was the first time I had seen purple smoke.
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    VinnieB,

    I was there too. Very interesting little job.
    Good Luck, Stay Low & Stay Safe

    Nate DeMarse
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    Quote Originally Posted by NDeMarse
    VinnieB,

    I was there too. Very interesting little job.
    I was standing by the man hole that blew a few minutes before it did. I took the captains mask back to the rig.....looked up...and the senior man said "hey kid watch this, that thing is gonna' blow"....10 seconds later....WHAM!!!.......then the purple smoke came...which the con-ed guy told me was gas burning off.....
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    It looks to me like there's more than one window where the brown smoke is. Does it matter which one gets vented?
    I am a highly trained professional and can find my :: expletive deleted:: with either hand in various light conditions.

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    in regards to the picture of the row frame...... if your in the front yard watch out for that air conditioner on the 2nd floor. also if your standing around with nothing to do ladder exposure 4

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    Quote Originally Posted by NDeMarse View Post
    2) The line is not yet charged. Rest assured it will be soon though. If you are searching ANYWHERE as a VES team and you hear the Engine calling for water, it's time to make your way back to your exit point. They are going to be pushing the fire directly toward you and the vent point you just created. Remember, you are to vent and search behind the fire. When the engine gets water, they push it toward you
    Sorry to resurrect an old thread but this statement brought up some questions. We don't do VES so forgive me if these are stupid questions
    -If the fire is on the first floor is it possible to VES "behind the fire" when the line is flowing if your targeting second floor bedrooms?
    -Do you guys ever VES a room that isn't behind the fire when the line is operating, if so do you any thing different?
    -When preforming VES Do you guys still worry about getting back to your exit point when the hoseline is going into operation if you already have the door closed?
    Last edited by Dibbs12; 06-28-2011 at 01:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibbs12 View Post
    Sorry to resurrect an old thread but this statement brought up some questions. We don't do VES so forgive me if these are stupid questions
    No such thing, VES is easy, but confussing for some who have never been taught it or even seen it.

    -If the fire is on the first floor is it possible to search behind the fire when the line is flowing if your targeting second floor bedrooms?
    Not sure what you are asking here. Are you searching the 1st floor or the second? I'll give it a stab as what you may be asking. If the fire is on the 1st floor and you have VESd the second floor bedroom, then its quite ok to search there when the line is operating. One of the reasons we insure the door is closed to the bedroom is not just to keep smoke and flames from communitcating to where we are searching but the steam too. Was that what you were looking for?

    -Do you guys ever search a room that isn't behind the fire when the line is operating, if so do you any thing different?
    The intial area we search is the area up to the fire...and above it. Thats where people are in the most peril. The 1st due truck's inside team will search up to the fire and contain it until the engine is place...that part is called Locate Confine and Extingush....or LCE. So all the areas in the fire apt and floor above are hit first and quickly.

    -Do you guys still worry about getting back to your exit point when the hoseline is going into operation if you already have the door closed?
    [/quote]

    Not every officer closes the door when they are waiting for the engine...personnlay I think thats dangerous and wrong. I like when the boss shuts it...and if he doesn't I make sure to and communicated that I did. Sometimes we leave the can man at the door if we have to find where the fire is the apt. That way if things go bad, he can call out and we can find our way back. Also, once the line is in place and ready to operate we generally pull back to them so we don't get hit by the stream....on a few occations I have gotten into either a closet or a bathroom and waited for the engine to pass me. Only one did I stay in the same spot but that was because I was trying to make a backroom where I heard a women screaming. I was burned but my burns were thermal and not steam.

    Hope that helps, if not,, keep asking!!

    Stay Safe bro
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