A VES Scenario

[Bones42]

Ok, been doing some training and learning on this...

Being near the ocean, new building requirements have led to "Hurricane" proof windows on homes. If you've never seen them, imagine basically double thickness car windshields. They withstand 2x4's being shot at them around 90mph. They do not shatter, they do not look any different than a normal window.

Put a ground ladder to a second floor window and try to VES with these in place using your normal tools.

[NDeMarse]

I'll have to agree with Curt on the picture above.

He is better looking in that picture. Thank god for the glare coming through the window though.

I will further comment on some tactical questions later on tonight

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

Originally posted by Bones42
Ok, been doing some training and learning on this...

Being near the ocean, new building requirements have led to "Hurricane" proof windows on homes. If you've never seen them, imagine basically double thickness car windshields. They withstand 2x4's being shot at them around 90mph. They do not shatter, they do not look any different than a normal window.

Put a ground ladder to a second floor window and try to VES with these in place using your normal tools.

Bones...not a problem....

I wouldn't try this with a ground ladder, but with an aerial or tower/platform, it's a piece of cake... take the cutter's edge or K-12 and make your own opening in the wall near the window area. you can cut it as big as you like.

[tny]

Originally posted by Bones42
Ok, been doing some training and learning on this...

Being near the ocean, new building requirements have led to "Hurricane" proof windows on homes. If you've never seen them, imagine basically double thickness car windshields. They withstand 2x4's being shot at them around 90mph. They do not shatter, they do not look any different than a normal window.

Put a ground ladder to a second floor window and try to VES with these in place using your normal tools.

Bone’s, have you developed any specific techniques to attack these windows when left no alternative. Haligan to the sash -- check rails to force window locks, attack the corners of window sash (window framework) at the seal, etc. I haven’t had much experience/training on Hurricane windows and probably should. Maybe the bro’s from Florida (Dave 1983) could share some techniques with us.

Stay Safe
Tom

[Bones42]

Gonzo, saw works like a champ. Problem is, our OV guy doesn't normally carry one in his initial tool setup. And it's a bitch to run back to the rig when the hose team is telling you to take the window and they have to wait.


Our procedure at this time is that as soon as these windows are discovered, IC is notified as additional "truckies" will be needed as these windows are labor intensive.

Different brands (Marvin, Anderson, etc.) have different features. Higher end windows have sashes that interlock when closed so forcing them will be more of a challenge. The "standard" end do not interlock so they can be forced open, but that does not remove them. Also note, the frames of the windows are held in place by metal strapping to the building frame members. We have used a haligan and repeatedly attacked a corner to break the window section out. Averaged about 45 seconds to get 1 section of a double hung window out. Fixed windows are even thicker.

(there's pictures at IACOJ)

PS - NJ building codes recently made these windows mandatory for all construction within 1 mile of the ocean. 1 common way around it is for the homeowner to have plywood cut to size, numbered, and on-site for each and every window. Higher end homes are opting for the windows over the plywood.

[phyrngn]

Okay...How do you guys that routinely VES handle obstructions, such as electrical wires and service drops, trees, etc. I've been sizing up some of our buildings in the district, and noticed a lot of what appear to be insurmountable obstructions. Wires too close to the building, fences that are only about a foot away from the window, etc. Anyone have any tricks?

Plus, I didn't want to see my thread die just yet

[VinnieB]

A quick Engine note:

You will be surprised to know that lines here really don't get stretched that fast (at least where I work). Many parts of the country teach a rush the line, hurry the line, get the line up here quick type of thing. While learning Engine work out here, you find that they spend more time finding a viable hydrant, setting up the stretch, finding the correct entry point, chocking doors, stretching, flaking, charging, and chasing kinks than most departments do.

WOOOOOOOOOO........easy NDeMarse....BRO!!!.....I have no Idea were you work...but I know in the area I work int Da' Bronx...we stretch smoooth and fast taking in all the variables you mentioned........with that said....I TOTALLY agree with you on the whole "rush in" idea......especially with preconnnects..(which to me are......dangerous).... I would venture to say most places teach some sort of variation of a "shorthanded firefighting" concept....were preconnects play a vital role......(but again, to me dangerous, w/o very focused training by SEASONED firemen, not men with time...but Senior men....I'm sure you get my point)....toooooo many (in the vollies) times I have seen SHORT stretches that have turned into multiples when they shouldn't have.

[VinnieB]

Okay...How do you guys that routinely VES handle obstructions, such as electrical wires and service drops, trees, etc. I've been sizing up some of our buildings in the district, and noticed a lot of what appear to be insurmountable obstructions. Wires too close to the building, fences that are only about a foot away from the window, etc. Anyone have any tricks?

Plus, I didn't want to see my thread die just yet

Portable Ladders Brother.....Portable Ladders......

[Bones42]

Okay...How do you guys that routinely VES handle obstructions, such as electrical wires and service drops, trees, etc. I've been sizing up some of our buildings in the district, and noticed a lot of what appear to be insurmountable obstructions. Wires too close to the building, fences that are only about a foot away from the window, etc. Anyone have any tricks?

Plus, I didn't want to see my thread die just yet

In my area, it's not "legal" (and the power company won't connect it) to put a service drop that interferes with a window. As for trees, there ain't much we can do about that in a quick way so a different window is chosen. As for fences, most (but not all) in my area are wood and/or plastic so they can be "removed" quite easily when needed.

I've been sizing up some of our buildings in the district

That is a great thing to be doing.

[NDeMarse]

VinnieB,

You are correct and I apologize for "generalizing" the comment. The lines get into operation quickly. The point I was trying to make (and I think you understand) is that there are many places in the country that do get a line into operation faster than we do, just because of the way they are stretching and the methods that they use.

Many companies in the country pride themselves on "getting the first line on the fire" even though it might be in the wrong place, stretched short or not adequate. I was stating that we take our time, get the line into the right position using the correct route to the fire, and ALMOST ALWAYS we have a very smooth, rapid advance to the seat of the fire.

Just clarifying my stance.

[MG3610]

WOOOOOOOOOO........easy NDeMarse....BRO!!!.....I have no Idea were you work...but I know in the area I work int Da' Bronx...we stretch smoooth and fast taking in all the variables you mentioned........with that said....I TOTALLY agree with you on the whole "rush in" idea......especially with preconnnects..(which to me are......dangerous).... I would venture to say most places teach some sort of variation of a "shorthanded firefighting" concept....were preconnects play a vital role......(but again, to me dangerous, w/o very focused training by SEASONED firemen, not men with time...but Senior men....I'm sure you get my point)....toooooo many (in the vollies) times I have seen SHORT stretches that have turned into multiples when they shouldn't have.

I gotta say that i disagree with the preconnect comment. Here where I work, we run 95% of our fires with preconnects. It isnt a failure of the preconnect, its a failure of the basic rules of hose stretch estimates. If our lines are too long, we break em, if too short..extend em. we have 200 and 250's so they arent all the same. I cant see it taking any longer than stretching with a static bed. The difference here is we only staff 2 on our first due engine. Welcome to the art of first due with too few people. Wish I could have 5 to stretch my first line. Our first alarm consists of 7 career FF's and varying numbers of volunteers on a good day. Our engine driver is usually responsible for throwing a few ladders and doing OV if we are runnigngshorthanded...whch has been the case at the last few fires.

Im my expierence over 8 years...I have always used preconnects. The fires we lost were due to poor stragety and tactics, only a few were poor hose estimates.

[VinnieB]

VinnieB,

You are correct and I apologize for "generalizing" the comment. The lines get into operation quickly. The point I was trying to make (and I think you understand) is that there are many places in the country that do get a line into operation faster than we do, just because of the way they are stretching and the methods that they use.

Many companies in the country pride themselves on "getting the first line on the fire" even though it might be in the wrong place, stretched short or not adequate. I was stating that we take our time, get the line into the right position using the correct route to the fire, and ALMOST ALWAYS we have a very smooth, rapid advance to the seat of the fire.

Just clarifying my stance.

Ok I see what your mean now. I wonder how many other departments utilize the 2d due and sometimes even 3d due Engines to stretch the first line. We also have bosses that like to take the rope bucket so we can do a rope stretch up....which is great! especially on those looooooong stretches.

[NDeMarse]

VinnieB,

I worked in Illinois for 3 years before coming out here. I tried to get my department to team up the 1st & 2nd due engines to get the 1st line into operation on more than one occasion. For some reason they just won't do it.

If we team up with 4 and 5 firefighters arriving on a rig I am not sure why a department arriving with 2 firefighters on a rig would not do the same thing. Instead (in my former department) we would have 2 or 3 dry lines on the ground waiting to make the advance. Very unprofessional in my opinion, but as they say, "It works for us and we ain't New York"! LOL

I always get a kick out of that line

Have a good one

[Bones42]

Preconnects don't play a vital role when your fires can be on the first floor or the 34th and anywhere in between.

[VinnieB]

I gotta say that i disagree with the preconnect comment. Here where I work, we run 95% of our fires with preconnects. It isnt a failure of the preconnect, its a failure of the basic rules of hose stretch estimates. If our lines are too long, we break em, if too short..extend em. we have 200 and 250's so they arent all the same. I cant see it taking any longer than stretching with a static bed. The difference here is we only staff 2 on our first due engine. Welcome to the art of first due with too few people. Wish I could have 5 to stretch my first line. Our first alarm consists of 7 career FF's and varying numbers of volunteers on a good day. Our engine driver is usually responsible for throwing a few ladders and doing OV if we are runnigngshorthanded...whch has been the case at the last few fires.

Im my expierence over 8 years...I have always used preconnects. The fires we lost were due to poor stragety and tactics, only a few were poor hose estimates.

It all depends on your area. Were I work....preconnects are not happening. And if you have to stop a stretch to break a line, get another length, and re- connect...then continue to stretch...to me that just slows the first line down. I think its way easier to pull up will virtually "unlimited" hose...estimate then stretch...pull whats needed....ask the boos if he has enough...then hook up and chace kinks. In 13 years I've used both preconnects and static....but I like stretching off the backstep much better. And yes you can short stretch with a static bed too....as long as you put someone there with experiance...the likleyhood of that happening is less. And in that same 13 years....I've seen fires turn into complete disasters because the first line wasn't stretched or placed properly. The fire goes as the first line goes.....just my thoughts.

[firefiftyfive]

Preconnects only work for short stretches, by short I mean up to about 300 feet at most. A perfect example would be the other night we caught a job on the 5th floor, normally not a bad stretch, however we had wrap around stairs (around the elevator shaft). The stretch ended up being 12 lenghts. Also without the 2nd due engine the stretch would of been impossible. (Yes vinnieb I was working in the engine that night) I think that just proves how important it is to have multiple engines and how preconnects only work in certain areas.

[VinnieB]

(Yes vinnieb I was working in the engine that night) .

Well good! Maybe you can call yourself a fireman now! Instead of a firemans helper.....

I hope all is well with you....I was in manhattan for an all hands about a month ago I saw your company, but I guess you weren't working.....95/36 first due for a 10-25 code1 that went to a 10-75....and later...manhole started blowing...pretty wild stuff....it was the first time I had seen purple smoke.

[NDeMarse]

VinnieB,

I was there too. Very interesting little job.

[VinnieB]

VinnieB,

I was there too. Very interesting little job.

I was standing by the man hole that blew a few minutes before it did. I took the captains mask back to the rig.....looked up...and the senior man said "hey kid watch this, that thing is gonna' blow"....10 seconds later....WHAM!!!.......then the purple smoke came...which the con-ed guy told me was gas burning off.....

[DonSmithnotTMD]

It looks to me like there's more than one window where the brown smoke is. Does it matter which one gets vented?