1. #1
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    Unhappy Breaking news- Philly Tiller Truck on top of car and into building

    Anyone else see that on the news.
    I hope the brothers are ok, but if anyone was in the car, I can't see them walking away.
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    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

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    http://www.nbc10.com/index.html





    I hope everyone is ok.

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    The person in the car did not make it, FH.com has the story on the mainpage.


    Story:

    PHILADELPHIA -- A man in a car is dead after a fire truck ran over the car and then crashed into a convenience store in southwest Philadelphia Friday afternoon.

    Video: FireTruck Into Convenience Store
    Fire department sources said that the Ladder 249 rescue truck crashed into the store about 1:45 p.m. at the corner of 59th and Cedar streets.

    The truck ended up on top of a Ford Taurus with one man inside. It took a crane to lift the fire truck off the car and pull it out.

    Medical units were on the scene as fire crews try to extricate the person from the car.

    According to fire sources, three firefighters were taken to the Hospital of the University of Philadelphia and three civilians were taken to Misericordia Hospital.

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    Default Man Dead When Fire Truck Runs Into Car, Building

    Man Dead When Fire Truck Runs Into Car, Building
    Fire Crews Extricate Car From Under Fire Truck

    POSTED: 2:34 pm EDT July 15, 2005
    UPDATED: 3:27 pm EDT July 15, 2005

    PHILADELPHIA --


    A fire truck has crashed into a convenience store at the corner of 59th and Cedar streets about 1:45 p.m.

    Fire department sources said that the Ladder 249 rescue truck ran into a car and then crashed into a building, landing on top of a Ford Taurus, with a person inside.

    Medical units are on the scene as fire crews try to extricate the person from the car. The car has been removed from under the truck. It was not clear if the person was dead or alive.

    According to fire sources, three firefighters were taken to the Hospital of the University of Philadelphia and three civilians were taken to Misericordia Hospital.

    We will have more details as they become available. Watch NBC 10 News for updates on this story.

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    Unhappy

    Sorry to hear this and the lost of a civilian. Prayers for the injured members of the Truck Company.

    Let’s hold up on speculation of what happened and let the news and the department makes a report on this. The have enough problems in Philly, without casting blame.

    Get well Members of the Philadelphia Fire Department and return to duty soon.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Bravo Captain Old Timer - I add my sentiments to yours.

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    capt. old timer said it .... thats the approach that should be taken WITH ALL issues that present themselves here . we got enough people beatin us up ,, no need to add personal oppinion that amounts to just that ..good thoughts .. get well brothers..

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    My prayers are with all our Philly brothers too. I didn't even know about this until I got online tonight, despite it happening so close to me.

    On a nother note, did anyone read the headline below that on the NBC page?
    Mother Charged With Injecting Fecal Matter Into Son
    Yeah, that's a little disgusting....some people these days...

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    My thoughts are with the brothers of Ladder 13 as well, the news actually has some witnesses saying the driver of the car went through the red light while using his cellphone.

    http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/071...retruckax.html

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    Default Off of the same site


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    The latest reports are saying that bystanders calim the civilian driver was talking on a cell phone and blew a red light despite perosns trying to get his attetnion, also stated that when the person did see the truck he tried to outrun it. Who knows what the real truth is but at least the FD isn't getting railroaded in this one.

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    Originally posted by MEck51
    The latest reports are saying that bystanders calim the civilian driver was talking on a cell phone and blew a red light despite perosns trying to get his attetnion, also stated that when the person did see the truck he tried to outrun it. Who knows what the real truth is but at least the FD isn't getting railroaded in this one.
    If that turns out to be the case Im not surprised. Ive seen people do some really stupid stuff behind the wheel with a cell phone.
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    The latest reports are saying that bystanders calim the civilian driver was talking on a cell phone and blew a red light despite perosns trying to get his attetnion, also stated that when the person did see the truck he tried to outrun it. Who knows what the real truth is but at least the FD isn't getting railroaded in this one.
    I will say, it is sad that one person lost their life, three FFs and several innocent by-standers were injured, not to mention the loss of a probably half-million dollar piece of apparatus and the resulting property damage...all of this is pretty bad.

    If the driver of the car was on his cell phone, or was really dumb and tried to outrun the truck, let's consider one small detail mentioned in the article...

    Why was a ladder company responding to a "possible gas leak" emergently? I will never understand why we consistently respond to calls with lights and sirens when the liklihood of life safety or property being in danger is slim to none.

    While I am not assessing any blame on the part of the apparatus chauffeur or the civilian driver...you can't deny it could've been avoided if they hadn't been responding emergently. This is simply yet another case where maybe we should all revise our dispatch/response policies...

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    you can't deny it could've been avoided if they hadn't been responding emergently.
    First of all there is nothing to say that apparatus can not get hit while merely out riding their district. It happens and people get hurt. What is the solution to that? Stay indoors because something might happen?

    Safety is vital and anyone hurt in a fire in their career will point that out. Yet some seem to want to ignore the fact that firefighting is a dangerous occupation. It is not a sterile job. The accident in Philadelphia, where the facts have still not come out, is a tragedy. It is also a tragedy to make assumptions based on hypothetical situations after the fact. Perhaps if everyone just stopped responding to any call the world would be safer. Wait-that defies logic as well.


    Why was a ladder company responding to a "possible gas leak" emergently? I will never understand why we consistently respond to calls with lights and sirens when the liklihood of life safety or property being in danger is slim to none.
    Have you never seen a gas leak turn into a major fire????? Life safety is at stake. Gas leaks have caused more than a few firefighters to die in the line of duty. In fact, it may be argued that going slow to a gas leak, or potential leak, is more dangerous as the gas has time to further inundate an area.

    Again accidents are going to happen. We can't not live because we might die.
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    Originally posted by parafire81


    I will say, it is sad that one person lost their life, three FFs and several innocent by-standers were injured, not to mention the loss of a probably half-million dollar piece of apparatus and the resulting property damage...all of this is pretty bad.

    If the driver of the car was on his cell phone, or was really dumb and tried to outrun the truck, let's consider one small detail mentioned in the article...

    Why was a ladder company responding to a "possible gas leak" emergently? I will never understand why we consistently respond to calls with lights and sirens when the liklihood of life safety or property being in danger is slim to none.

    While I am not assessing any blame on the part of the apparatus chauffeur or the civilian driver...you can't deny it could've been avoided if they hadn't been responding emergently. This is simply yet another case where maybe we should all revise our dispatch/response policies...
    Where does it say anywhere that the truck had L&S going

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    Originally posted by parafire81


    Why was a ladder company responding to a "possible gas leak" emergently? I will never understand why we consistently respond to calls with lights and sirens when the liklihood of life safety or property being in danger is slim to none.
    Commonwealth of Pennsylvania has sent down a decree from up atop their mountain in Harrisburg. Not sure if it's a law or not, but they require fire departments get dispatched every time the gas company goes to a reported leak.

    Why, you ask? After a number of high profile house explosions and fires resulting from lack of fire department notification of a gas leak. A house blew up in Moon Township, in the southwestern portion of the state with heavy fire. In the same area, the side of a house was blown off in Cannonsburg Borough after a reported gas leak.

    So, PA requires we roll to all gas leaks now.
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

    Safety is no accident.

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    My prayers go out to all involved.

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    I will never understand why we consistently respond to calls with lights and sirens when the liklihood of life safety or property being in danger is slim to none.
    Here we go. Why don't we just start sending one guy out in a car...if there is something burning when he gets there, we can turn the lights on and respond...DUH..WE RESPOND BECAUSE WE ARE SUPPOSED TO!

    Here is a novel idea that will make all the Safety-Fairies happy:

    No more lights on Apparatus
    No more sirens on Apparatus
    Airhorns no louder than 100db
    Fully Encapsulated Proximity suits capable of withstanding 10,000 Degrees.
    Four Hour SCBA
    Colored Vests and Radios for everyone
    Propane powered Firetrucks so we cant smell diesel anymore
    One Story Firehouses so we can't slide the pole
    No leather helmets or boots, they might soak up haz-mat....

    Gimme a BREAK! Good God, why do PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO BE FIREFIGHTERS ALWAYS BLAME THE FIRE DEPARTMENT FIRST?!?!?!?

    I guess Lights and Sirens aren't safe anymore?
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    Default This is why we respond emergency!

    parafire81, THIS is why! Another incident in Philadelphia........
    From a press release issued by the Philadelphia Fire Department:

    On Tuesday, February 4th 2003, at approximately 4:00 P.M. Engine 71, located at Cottman & Loretto Aves., was dispatched to Summerdale and Longshore Aves. to investigate a report of an odor of natural gas. Upon arrival at the above location, the Officer and members of Engine 71, observed natural gas bubbling up from cracks in the pavement and wet soil of the lawn. Additional Fire Department units were immediately requested to respond to the scene, along with an emergency response by units of the Philadelphia Gas Works. They immediately initiated an evacuation of the home at that address.

    A 71 year-old female, residing at 1200 Longshore Ave., was alerted and escorted to safety by firefighters of Engine 71. Approximately 20 seconds after this woman was evacuated, an explosion and fire occurred which completely demolished this house.

    It was determined in the subsequent investigation by the Fire Marshal's Office, that the circumference of a 12-inch natural gas main was cracked by the large root of a nearby tree. It was found that the escaping natural gas infiltrated the house and was ignited by an internal source. Fire Commissioner Harold Hairston stated "There is no doubt that without the astute, professional and timely actions of the firefighters of Engine 71, this woman would have perished."
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    For an odor of natural gas outdoors, we roll a single engine response.

    For an odor of natural gas indoors, you get the full 1st alarm response "just in case the defacation hits the oscillation". We had a house explosion in January of 1984. It's better to roll the troops.. if they are not needed, the IC can send them back!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Im retired now and thankful because people who don't think a gas leak is potentially catastrophic have no reason being on the job. I tremble for the people they protect.

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    Hopefully the brothers will recover and the driver of the apparatus will be fully cleared. That being said, this incident may be an example of why it is important for apparatus to slow down at all intersections, even where they have the green light,so they can be sure that they have full control of the intersection before proceeding through it. I know that this procedure does cost time during the response, but it does give the apparatus driver the opportunity to stop the rig if he sees a vehicle approaching that appears like they may not stop.

    I am not making any judgements or saying in this case that it would have been obvious that this car was not going to yield ... but in my 25 plus years I have seen hundreds of trucks roll through green lights at full speed, slowing down, fully assuming that the publlic was going to yield, and giving themselves no chance reasonable chance to stop if they had to. Just making the point that hundreds of times a day the opportunity for an accident such as this occurs acreoss the country because of the way many fire departments handle, or more accuratly, do not handle the response, and more precisly, the speed of thier apparatus.

    I will reserve comment on the dispatching of multiple apparatus code 3 to a gas leak for a later time.....

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    I saw this article, and immediately went ‘WHOA!’ My prayers go out to the firefighters on the rig, and to the family of the civilian driver. From what I could gather from various bits of news footage, it appears that Ladder 13's driver was trying HARD to avoid when the rig hit the car. I know I'm making assumptions based on very little, but the rig ended up at an angle to both streets. That makes it appear that he was in the middle of a sharp swerve (Or as sharp a turn as a tractor-drawn ladder can make at any rate) and once he hit the car, and ended up partially on top of it, was just along for the ride.

    The damage inflicted on the civilian vehicle also tells me that Ladder 13 probably DID have the green light...I imagine Philadelphia has a similar regulation RE: traffic lights to the ones I’m familiar with around here. Stop...or at least slow WAY down...and make sure your intentions are understood by the other drivers before preceding through the light. Had the rig been slowing for a red light, the damage wouldn't have been anywhere near as severe. The rig was rolling at typical emergency response speed...therefore it's almost a sure bet that ladder 13 had the green light. I seriously doubt ANY fire apparatus chauffer would blow through a light…especially in a busy urban area…without slowing or stopping to be sure he had the unchallenged right of way. The eyewitness reports bear that out, and yes, it’s very refreshing to see the blame not automatically laid at the fire department’s doorstep.

    As for Cell phones…that definitely doesn’t surprise me. In my daily travels I see a significant number of drivers who are paying more attention to their conversation that to the road. There have, in fact, been a couple of recent fatalities in the Greater Richmond Area where cell phones played a part.

    As for emergency response to gas leaks…they have a nasty tendency to become gas explosions. I recall several such incidents in Chesterfield over the years, all of which reduced the involved structure to kindling. Also, some years back one of the deadliest pre-9/11 incidents occurred in, I believe, Buffalo New York due to a gas leak…an illegal propane tank was being moved by a fork lift on an upper floor of a warehouse when the valve was broken off. The propane lit off minutes after the first alarm assignment arrived and devastated the entire neighborhood..

    So yes, much as the words ‘Odor of Gas’ crackling over the speakers tends to bring out the thought ‘’S*** call’, there is a need for aggressive emergency response to such incidents, especially inside a structure.

    Rob

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    IMHO
    The decision of whether or not a call is an actual emergency should not be placed on our lap as firefighters. If someone calls for the fire department, it already is an emergency that they cant handle on their own. If the dispatcher deems the call is not an emergency, they should dispatch our response as non-emergent. If the call is something stupid like the taco thread, they already make that decision not to dispatch us. To ask us to make this decision on what little info we get is wrong. We grab the apparatus and go. Lights and sirens, speed limit plus 10 unless its a balls to the wall call (Rollover with fire,entrapment, structure etc). If they dont like it, they can make laws telling us how to respond. I dont care if I have to go and pull out the old steamer and mules, if thats what the people want! But the decision should not be mine to make.

    God bless and pull the ceiling as you go.

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    Im retired now and thankful because people who don't think a gas leak is potentially catastrophic have no reason being on the job. I tremble for the people they protect.
    I never said that a gas leak could not be potentially catastrophic, but let's face it...most turn out to be nothing. However, I fail to understand the need for a full-size tiller ladder apparatus to respond to one Code 3. Why wouldn't an Engine Co. whose apparatus is much smaller and easier to control be dispatched as a primary response Code 3, and any other apparatus procede non-emergently until either cancelled by the first-due engine, or when the "feces does hit the oscillator" upgrade to an emergent response.

    While the same accident could've ocurred with an Engine, I doubt it would've been quite as dramatic of crash.

    I see a similar scenario play out here in the midwest. When a department gets paged for a grass/brush fire in a ditch in a rural area, miles from the nearest house, and there is ZERO probability of someone's life being in danger, they empty all the trucks from the station, and roll 20 firefighters Code 3. When they get there it takes a brush truck and two firefighters to extinguish "the blaze". Meanwhile the 3 engines sit and idle, blocking one lane of traffic, and there are 18 firefighters standing around with their thumb up their asses.

    Here we go. Why don't we just start sending one guy out in a car...if there is something burning when he gets there, we can turn the lights on and respond...DUH..WE RESPOND BECAUSE WE ARE SUPPOSED TO!
    Here is a novel idea that will make all the Safety-Fairies happy:
    No more lights on Apparatus
    No more sirens on Apparatus
    Airhorns no louder than 100db
    I am certainly not on a crusade to see this occur, but maybe be a little judicious in their use...and if they are used, use your head when doing so. Call me a "safety-fairy" if ya want, but I prefer to go home at the end of my shift.

    The decision of whether or not a call is an actual emergency should not be placed on our lap as firefighters. If someone calls for the fire department, it already is an emergency that they cant handle on their own. If the dispatcher deems the call is not an emergency, they should dispatch our response as non-emergent. If the call is something stupid like the taco thread, they already make that decision not to dispatch us. To ask us to make this decision on what little info we get is wrong. We grab the apparatus and go. Lights and sirens, speed limit plus 10 unless its a balls to the wall call (Rollover with fire,entrapment, structure etc). If they dont like it, they can make laws telling us how to respond. I dont care if I have to go and pull out the old steamer and mules, if thats what the people want! But the decision should not be mine to make.
    This is simply an example the fire service's unwillingness to break from traditions. Not every call is an emergency anymore...regardless of what the caller might constitute as an emergency. The EMS industry has figured this out.

    If someone calls for the fire department, it already is an emergency that they cant handle on their own.
    Does that mean if someone dials 911 and wants an engine co. to come change their smoke detector battery...you're going to scream down there Code 3?

    Load your cannons and fire at will, but this idea of running balls out to all calls, especially in an urban area with a truck the size of a tiller ladder will never make sense to me.
    Last edited by parafire81; 07-18-2005 at 02:23 AM.

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