1. #1
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    Default Big Water from the outside?

    There seems to be much debate.

    Water directed through windows into the fire rooms.

    Sure way to get your fellow FF burned and push the fire into the bulding?

    Or....

    A vaiable tactic which has gotten a bad wrap and is surrounded by myths.

    Hmmmmmm...

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    Depends on the situation. We were on mutual aid to an almost-block-party structure. Occupants were out, fire was threatening to run the building. Fire was in the middle of a block. They opened the roof, put lines in the adjacent buildings and pulled ceilings.

    Meanwhile, a tower ladder, parked across the street, worked the entire front of the building, from top to bottom. Same thing in the back. The building was lost, but it was a tactical decision made to save the block by wacking it quickly instead of letting it run the buildings.

    I don't mind blitz attacks where appropriate. The one time I resorted to a blitz attack was a pool supply store in a strip mall. Heavy fire in the rear upon arrival. Put our Mercury monitor on the ground in the front door, opened the rear door, and hit it with a fog tip to push it out of the rear and get some steam conversion to knock it down. We dumped our 1,000 gallon tank, but had water real quick and finished it off. Saved the lower merchandise in the front of the store, only minor smoke and water damage in the two adjacent stores and no extension.

    The store has repaired and is open today.
    "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

    Safety is no accident.

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    Default

    ............
    Last edited by StLRes2cue; 11-16-2005 at 09:59 PM.

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    I got pelted once-or rather drowned - by an overzealous brother in a ladder company who opened up while we in the first due engine were advancing a line into the room. It was not pleasant.
    Jacktee

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    One of the evolutions the recruits at the Massachusetts Fire Academy get is the "reverse vent". A fire is built on Division 3 of the burn building, and the students hunker down on the stairs leading up from Division 2.

    The fire is ignited and allowed to burn to it's free burning stage... Then the instructional staff opens up an 1.75" line from the exterior, pushing the heat onto the students in the stairwell.

    Afetrwards, they complain of the heat. The instructors then tell them to imagine it with a deuce and a half opened up.

    They learn a lesson...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Originally posted by CaptainGonzo
    One of the evolutions the recruits at the Massachusetts Fire Academy get is the "reverse vent". A fire is built on Division 3 of the burn building, and the students hunker down on the stairs leading up from Division 2.

    The fire is ignited and allowed to burn to it's free burning stage... Then the instructional staff opens up an 1.75" line from the exterior, pushing the heat onto the students in the stairwell.

    Afetrwards, they complain of the heat. The instructors then tell them to imagine it with a deuce and a half opened up.

    They learn a lesson...
    Outstanding!! Great way to get the point accross.

    Its real simple folks...Crews inside, no water from the outside. PERIOD!
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    Default Re: Big Water from the outside?

    Originally posted by SamsonFCDES
    There seems to be much debate.

    Water directed through windows into the fire rooms.

    Sure way to get your fellow FF burned and push the fire into the bulding?

    Or....

    A vaiable tactic which has gotten a bad wrap and is surrounded by myths.

    Hmmmmmm...

    I believe that is Detroit fire in action there...But anyway, in response to your post, what exactly were you asking? (Not trying to sound rude.) This picture looks like a defensive operation. I'm sure nobody is in the building on that floor. Using master streams into windows is a legit tactic when the building on fire calls for a defensive operation. Obviously streams should never be opened directly into the building when you have crews inside. They would be working against each other, and the crew from the outside would win every time.

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    And looking at the sign under the bucket.

    I do not think they are "Open for Business" anymore.
    Psychiatrists state 1 in 4 people has a mental illness.
    Look at three of your friends, if they are ok, your it.

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    Like everything in the fire service, an exterior attack has its place. However, that place is with all members outside of the involved structure. Either you're fighting it from the outside... or you're fighting it from the inside. You can not do both at the same time.

    With that said, I've seen exterior attacks work early in a fire. A couple of years ago, another shift pulled up on SFD with heavy fire throughout the garage and through the roof. A quick attack from the deck gun and a 2.5" line knocked the fire down enough to allow an interior attack (once the exterior streams were killed) from the unburned side that resulted in some saved property.

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    Exterior attacks ....

    1. Defensively, when the structure is unoccupied and heavily involved or unsafe to commit into .... definitely yes.

    2. Offensively, to get some rapid knock-down just prior to entry .... yes in some situations. But you have to weigh the pros and cons .... to control fire spread is the main reason you would do this. That FDNY footage earlier showed a post-flashover fire that appeared to double in size (floor area) from the time first units arrived on-scene to the moment water went onto that fire. A hit from the street may have bought some time for occupants trapped in semi-involved areas. However, it may also have steamed a couple of occupants. Don't be misguided as I have never seen a straight stream 'push' fire. What I have seen is expanding steam create heat movements inside the structure.

    3. Always remember the water you are 'blitzing' in is placing a great strain on an already weakening structure .... at 8.3 lbs a gallon or 150gpm for 13 mins = 1 ton .... so assess the stability before committing and take this extra loading into account!

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    I really don't like calling situations like that photo "defensive."

    I know that it is consitent with several of the fire service books. Doesn't mean they're well written or right in doing that.

    Defensive = you stand back and protect exposures

    That photo they're on the offense -- taking the water to the fire (or what remains of it) -- to actively extinguish the fire.

    They may or may not be within the collapse zone -- tough to tell from the photo. If you're defensive, absolutely no reason to be in the collapse zone, 'cause your just keeping it from spreading while waiting for the fuel load to burn down.

    If that stick was up in the air, well away, just dumping water, that's defensive.

    Offensive shouldn't mean interior only -- there's plenty of situations where you'll hit it hard from the outside. Perhaps even using a tool like this tower ladder to knock the snot out of heavy fire before guys move in.

    As too mixing the two...you better damn well know what you're doing if you try.

    There are buildings & situations it can work but it takes strong command and strong discipline and conveying specific orders to the units involved. Most communities don't have either of those or the buildings that they'd be used in, so it kind of works out well to just say, "NO" for most of us.
    Last edited by 123456D; 07-28-2005 at 11:37 AM.

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    Offensive Tactics = Fire Control & Suppression

    Defensive Tactics = Fire Confinement

    You can be exterior and be in offensive mode just as you can be interior and be in defensive mode ....

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    Our interior policy is that anyone who opens a hose or deck gun through a window gets to ride back to quarters with the interior attack crew on that call.
    The concept is that you need to know if it's going to be interior attack or exterior control of the fire before you go spraying water in a window.

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    Unhappy

    I honestly can't even believe that this topic is being discussed. I thought that not spraying water into the structure while operations are going on inside was a basic thing that should be understood by everyone on the fireground. But I guess people stop thinking as soon as they see a little flame!

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    You said it. This was drilled into my head by all sorts of unconnected instructors in little .5-1 unit classes at the community college long before I entered the fire service. No master streams on a building with people inside. Or like they say when the sticks go up the building goes down.

    Also again sometimes the best defense is a good offense. It is pretty hard to defend another building with a common wall when the building next to it is burning to the foundation unchecked. Or like the tactic that has been floating around lately making a 2.5" blitz attack with tank water. Once that fire goes down then there are no more exposures, do what it takes. GPM vs BTU

    Birken

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    Was the building unsafe for entry; a surround & drown job?

    That would be the only purpose for putting that much water in from the exterior. I'd be worried about water logged beams with that much flow.

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