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  1. #21
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    "Scott masks crack;Often" Quite a few Scott users here,including myself.30 packs,over 25 years of constant use,two facepieces "cracked" because of DONNING errors.Hardly a nationwide trend and a LONG WAY from "often".Like Fyred up,we've used this technology troublefree for years,never had an on incident failure,never had a freezup on the 2.2/4.5s at -60F(with wind chill)and there is NO WAY you're getting your Dragers PROPERLY maintained at two O-rings a year.Unless your dealer is "benching"them for free.Not likely!Nothing in your "arguement"would cause me to take a second look,much less change over to a Drager.Nor would I have any inclination to NXG2,as it is compatible with NOTHING else.An AP50 will suit my needs and requirements very nicely now and for the forseeable future.As I said earlier,lets see how your packs are doing thirty years from now.Mine are still passing bench and doing nicely, thank you.Could I still interest you in that renault tank? Or perhaps a Le car? Maybe that's why the Navy uses Scott,Eh? T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 08-03-2005 at 02:13 PM.


  2. #22
    Forum Member scbaguy's Avatar
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    Originally posted by FFTrainer


    Hate to burst everyone's bubbles, but the guy didn't ask for who's SCBA is better. His station bought new ones and was looking for model specific info like tips and advice.

    It's amazing that as soon as someone mentions a manufacturer of ANYTHING... gear, scba, apparatus, rescue struts, rescue tools... it turns in to yours sucks an mines better. At least you guys made a little bit of effort to back up your claims, most guys just say xyz sucks and then they run for cover.

    SCBAGUY I'd love to help you out... but my Scott experience ends with the AP 50 which my part time station uses and MSA at my full time station. In either case, the only thing I can come up with is keep batteries on hand. We have a bulk in the equipment room at the station and we have some on each apparatus, cause you know these things always act up at the most in-opportune time!

    Good luck with the new ones!
    Thanks FFTrainer.

    Here's the deal guys, not trying to tick anybody off, but...

    I didn't ask what anybody else had, and I don't really care what pack anybody thinks is better/best. I didn't even say that I thought our new packs are best.

    Here is the point of the first post:
    1. we bought new airpacks.
    2. the new airpacks are a very new product
    3. I know of no one else in our area, or for that matter in the country that has gone to this new airpack exclusivly for operations.(I'm sure there may be others, I just don't know of any)
    4. I thought someone out ther may be interested to see why we did it
    5. I thought somebody may be interested in how we did it.
    6. and, if there are any other Scott Techs that do have these in use in your department, I would like to get in contact with you just to keep tabs on what we may find as problems and solutions regarding the new packs.

    So, I hope nobody is ticked.

  3. #23
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    We just received 12x NxG2 high pressure which we purchased with fire grant. We love them so far (which is obviously why we bought them) and have had no problems. We did not get the buddy breath, bought a RIT bag/tank. We are trading up from real dinosaurs. Have not had them long enough to validate our opinions from test/evaluation but happy so far. The quick tank change is progress.

  4. #24
    Forum Member scbaguy's Avatar
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    Neiowa,
    How many total airpacks do ya'll have? How many others besides NXG2?

  5. #25
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    Smile

    My department has bought 100 Scott NXG2's. We currently have the Survivair Panthers (4.5). Dont know about any leaks, but we have had some loaners for about 2 months and no prolems yet. I've done alot of training with this airpack, everything from bailing out windows, submerge testing, etc, and it seemed to work fine. We als bought the RIT package and computer board that links all FF's to the IC.

    I have used both Scott, MSA, Survivair, ISI, and Drager. All have their good/bad sides. There's always a bad apple in the bunch.

    We have been using Survivair for sometime now, and we have had some problems with our Panthers, but most of them are from Survivair screw up's or personnel treating them like a rental car. After the problem was fixed, they worked fine.

    p.s. Just one problem, Dont go out and buy the cheap batteries, they will only last about 2-3 weeks "Top"
    Last edited by captjab; 08-03-2005 at 03:39 PM.

  6. #26
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Rescue101
    "Scott masks crack;Often" Quite a few Scott users here,including myself.30 packs,over 25 years of constant use,two facepieces "cracked" because of DONNING errors.Hardly a nationwide trend and a LONG WAY from "often".Like Fyred up,we've used this technology troublefree for years,never had an on incident failure,never had a freezup on the 2.2/4.5s at -60F(with wind chill)and there is NO WAY you're getting your Dragers PROPERLY maintained at two O-rings a year.Unless your dealer is "benching"them for free.Not likely!Nothing in your "arguement"would cause me to take a second look,much less change over to a Drager.Nor would I have any inclination to NXG2,as it is compatible with NOTHING else.An AP50 will suit my needs and requirements very nicely now and for the forseeable future.As I said earlier,lets see how your packs are doing thirty years from now.Mine are still passing bench and doing nicely, thank you.Could I still interest you in that renault tank? Or perhaps a Le car? Maybe that's why the Navy uses Scott,Eh? T.C.
    Scott (And the Navy) thinks the facepiece failures are serious enough to issue a safety bulliten.

    This is even for the newest and best facepice, a new failure that is different from the docking and scew failures.

    Yes, our dealer bench tests our packs for free.
    http://www.iaff.org/safe/content/Saf...0%20Notice.pdf

    As far as your military reasoning...LOL. They why does the Air Force use unterspiro, the National Gaurd use Drager for their WMD/HAZMAT responce units, etc....

    Two words for you....

    Low Bid.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

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  7. #27
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    Originally posted by scbaguy
    Neiowa,
    How many total airpacks do ya'll have? How many others besides NXG2?
    Replaced 3 old MSA and 3 old Scott low pressure unit. All 6 are going away.

    Now have 12x high pressue SCBA (NxG2) plus 12 extra bottles (all are 45min), a 60 min RIT bag/tank and we have a mobile cascade system I obtained from DOD surplus (8x 425ft3 high pressure tanks). So we have LOTs of air.

    16 members in the dept (expect 7-10 members for the rare major fire). Call for mutual aid is made early on.

  8. #28
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Samson...

    Filter masks in the 1800's is NOT an SCBA. So this point is moot. Neither is some goofy suit that you breath air out of. SCBA...when did Draeger have a compressed air bottle SCBA?

    Any manufacturer will stand behind a problem that is caused by a manufacturing defect. NO ONE will stand behind an SBCA that is damaged by user error or abuse. Irregardless of what your saleman told you. Read the fine print again without your rose colored glasses.

    I still prefer a mask that fits me personally because it was designed for my face. If you like wearing a mask that is too big or too small that seals because of over sized rubber flanges more power to you. If you issue individual facepieces this whole point is totally moot. If you don't, you violate NFPA.

    Drager makes the finest SCUBA/Rebreathers available, thats what the SF uses.
    I don't plan on scuba diving with my firefigthing SCBA so again a totally irrelevant point from a salesman pitch.

    As far as the Air Force using Interspiros I NEVER met a single FF in the air force, air guard or ANG while I worked there that thought they were even close to the quality of the MSA's or Scott's they gave up to get them.

    Why did the air force buy Interspiros? Real simple low bid. Not because they were better, Scott had actually won the bid and through some legal wrangling and protesting Interspiro had that thrown out.

    Actually I am very innovative and I try new things all the time. Both in the fire service and in my own life. Again, new doesn't always mean better. Personally, I never said I put ketchup on my dogs, you said that. I said I wouldn't put salsa on them even though it is the world's leading condiment.

    You didn't say that Baltimore used Draeger you used the movie Ladder 49 as part of your rationale for buying Draeger. Again, just because Baltimore or m Miami Dade or Anchorage, or the FDNY, or Boston or Chicago or LA or anyone does something doesn't mean it is right for anyone else. Local circumstances, testing, and usage distate what we buy. Not somebody telling me to buy it because some city uses it.

    User error is relevant and if someone broke soemthing on one of your Draegers you would say it was operator error too. As far as the cracks happening often...Nonsense, we had 2.2's for 20 years before we got our AP-50's and NEVER cracked a single one of them. Of course we trained our people in proper donning and usage of the SCBA. And maintenance was done by a few members, not everyone was wrenching on the masks to tighten the screws. So tell your sales guy to find a new tune.

    You sound like the kid who Got the Huffy bike with a horn and tassles trying to convince the kid with the Trek yours is better because the guy at K-Mart said Trek doesn't come with a horn or tassles.

    If you like your Draegers and they work for you...FANTASTIC. I am happy for you and your sales guy who convinced you and made his commission off from the sale. Notice that not once did I say that Draegers suck.

    FyredUp

  9. #29
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    SCBAguy

    I talked to a firefighter the other day while instructing at the tech school whose department had just purchased NXG2's. I asked him how they liked them and he said so far they were working fine. I asked if there were any problems and he said no. Essentially with the actual operation of the SCBA being virtually the same as an AP-50, from the user's stand point it was almost a seamless transition for them. He said changing bottles and refilling was a bit weird the first few times but with training is going fine.

    I hope this helps. Sorry for the off topic battle with Samson. If he had stayed on topic the battle never would have occurred.

    FyredUp

  10. #30
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by FyredUp
    Samson...

    Filter masks in the 1800's is NOT an SCBA. So this point is moot. Neither is some goofy suit that you breath air out of. SCBA...when did Draeger have a compressed air bottle SCBA?


    Your definition of SCBA is meaningless and moot.

    OSHA Definition:

    Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA): An atmosphere-supplying respirator for which the breathing air source is designed to be carried by the user. OSHA Definition

    Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA): An atmosphere-supplying respirator for which the breathing air source is designed to be carried by the user. OSHA Definition

    I reiterate. 1903 for the first Drager SCBA, 1907 for the FIRST SCBAs in the USA which are Drager unites

    In 1880, the original Fleuss apparatus was introduced in England, and in 1903 the original Draeger apparatus was developed in Germany.

    In the United States, breathing apparatus were introduced in 1907 when five Draeger units were purchased by the Boston and Montana Mining Company in Butte, Montana.

    Any manufacturer will stand behind a problem that is caused by a manufacturing defect. NO ONE will stand behind an SBCA that is damaged by user error or abuse. Irregardless of what your saleman told you. Read the fine print again without your rose colored glasses.


    LOL, like Scott stands behind its masks that fail because of user error?

    I still prefer a mask that fits me personally because it was designed for my face. If you like wearing a mask that is too big or too small that seals because of over sized rubber flanges more power to you. If you issue individual facepieces this whole point is totally moot. If you don't, you violate NFPA.


    Have you ever tried on a Drager facepeice?

    I don't plan on scuba diving with my firefigthing SCBA so again a totally irrelevant point from a salesman pitch.


    I do, I am in the process of converting a Scott SCBA over to a HP SCUBA rig. I would have used Drager but I couldnt find any being sold by anybody, lots of Scott junk on ebay...

    As far as the Air Force using Interspiros I NEVER met a single FF in the air force, air guard or ANG while I worked there that thought they were even close to the quality of the MSA's or Scott's they gave up to get them.

    Why did the air force buy Interspiros? Real simple low bid. Not because they were better, Scott had actually won the bid and through some legal wrangling and protesting Interspiro had that thrown out.


    Interspiro=crap

    I already said that LOW BID is the reason for that stuff in responce to somebody saying since the Navy uses Scott they are the best. They got them for 1600 a unit IIRC, thats why they bought them.

    Actually I am very innovative and I try new things all the time. Both in the fire service and in my own life. Again, new doesn't always mean better. Personally, I never said I put ketchup on my dogs, you said that. I said I wouldn't put salsa on them even though it is the world's leading condiment.


    If you try new things all the time then try puting salsa on your hot dog...

    You didn't say that Baltimore used Draeger you used the movie Ladder 49 as part of your rationale for buying Draeger. Again, just because Baltimore or m Miami Dade or Anchorage, or the FDNY, or Boston or Chicago or LA or anyone does something doesn't mean it is right for anyone else. Local circumstances, testing, and usage distate what we buy. Not somebody telling me to buy it because some city uses it.


    We bought Drager years before Ladder 49 so you are wrong about it being part of the rational for why we bought Drager.

    I made a tough in cheek comment about Drager staring in ladder 49.

    You are getting desperate, nit picking in an atempt to win some debate that in raging in your brain and your brain alone.

    As far as what metro areas use Drager, you were the one that said:

    "I don't see major metroploitan FD's flocking to switch to Draeger."

    I pointed out some of the metro areas using Drager to correct your error.

    User error is relevant and if someone broke soemthing on one of your Draegers you would say it was operator error too. As far as the cracks happening often...Nonsense, we had 2.2's for 20 years before we got our AP-50's and NEVER cracked a single one of them. Of course we trained our people in proper donning and usage of the SCBA. And maintenance was done by a few members, not everyone was wrenching on the masks to tighten the screws. So tell your sales guy to find a new tune.


    Go find me a Drager Safety bulliten on their PSS100 breathing Apparatus. I would GREATLY appreciate it if you found one, bucause I never have!

    I dont think you will find one, I have checked. Better safe then sorry.

    I already gave the link to the Scott safety alert.

    You sound like the kid who Got the Huffy bike with a horn and tassles trying to convince the kid with the Trek yours is better because the guy at K-Mart said Trek doesn't come with a horn or tassles.


    I could resort to personal attack like you here, but I wont, thats below me.

    You have asked for proof, for reasoning, for a lot of things, i have provided proof, flawless logic, and accurate commentary.

    If a kid with a Huffy bike=a genius, then yes, I sound like a kid with a huffy bike...

    Your turn. Find me Drager Safety Alerts on their Airpacks, find me proof of when Scott SCBAs first appeared, etc... I have met the burden of proof, you have met no such thing.

    If you like your Draegers and they work for you...FANTASTIC. I am happy for you and your sales guy who convinced you and made his commission off from the sale. Notice that not once did I say that Draegers suck.

    FyredUp


    Yeah, he made a killing.

    4500, 45 minute, spare bottle, buddy breather, voice amp, PSS100, NFPA, Sentinal for 4500$.

    The bid for Scott AP50 was 4500, 30m, spare bottle, NFPA for 4500$.

    The PSS100 was head and shoulders above the AP50. You cant even get anything like a Sentianl unit on a Scott.

    End of story, A Scott Department coverted to Drager, the first and the best!

    Oh, and...

    Scott sucks!

    LOL!
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  11. #31
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    Thumbs down

    Come on guys let it go already.

    The guy was asking for help with a matter and you've turned this simple question into a personal debate that has no ending or winner when trying to battle personal opinions.

  12. #32
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TrojanHorse


    I have. They had a low field of vision. They also have these screw on modlues that are just ripe for getting screwed up (no pun intended). I can see multiple face piece repairs after a short time for those SCBA with screw on modules on thier face piece. It seems really silly to me, as well as poor design, that you would screw anything extra to the face piece. Makes it heavier, more prone to failure, and restricts the field of view. The face piece was also bulky. Seemed like it was always getting in the way.


    Screw on modules? To what do you refer?

    The Drager Facepiece is MUCH smaller then MSA and is about the same size as Scott.

    ISI and Cairns probly have the lowest profile ones.

    The ISI face piece seems to be the only one designed with the firefighter in mind. Everything is inside, less things to get caught on. It is simple to use. It has the biggest field of vision. And if memory serves me correctly, it is the only one with the HUD inside the face piece. Which brings up another screwy thing I saw while dooing evals. Seems that there were 2 manufacturers that had the wireless set up for thier SCBA, I beleive it was MSA and Drager. The wireless system just by it's very nature requires more power to run. To solve this problem they turn the HUD display off for 50 seconds out of a minute. Pretty much makes the HUD useless. Can you imagine doing that with the gas gage in your car? Based on the obvious design flaws from those air packs wit hwireless systems we tossed those immediately.


    The wireless HUD of the Drager works flawlessly. I does have the LEDs in the mask. We change batteries every 6 months, but they would last a year. We just like to keep fresh ones in there.

    The wireless system by its very nature is a better system as it eliminates the wireing required to connect the mast to the pack. The wireing running along the air line is just one more thing that can break.

    Your description of how the hud works is not accurate. Maybe for MSA but not for Drager.

    The ISI air packs were the only ones that we saw that were designed with the firefighter in mind. They were sleek, well thought out, ergonomically correct, and easiest to use. I do believe they cost a little more, but you get what you pay for.
    I have heard HORRIBLE things about ISI Vikings. Seach the foru, you will find a laundry list of things that go wrong.

    - Airswitch breaks constantly
    - Radios turn on the electronics of the packs leading to dead batteries
    - Straps are hobbible and are always twisted
    - Ice often clogs up that low profile facepiece leading to the airswitch not functioning properly or the regulator failing

    As far as price the ISIs I have seen wernt the most expensive. Usualy it is Scott that comes in the high bid. Drager is listed sky high in the www.edarley.com catelog, but the price we paid was much less.

    HGAC buy from Viking dx is 3600$ IIRC.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  13. #33
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Samson...

    Merlin...sounds a lot like the SEMS system we got on our AP-50's. We can momitor all 16 of our SCBA's when they are in use. They go on line as soon as the air is turned on. Gives us air remaining, notice of a PASS activation, ability to send in a withdrawal message and for the user to send out that they are evacuating.

    If I planned on SCUBA diving I would not jury rig something together to make it work. I would buy a dedicated SCUBA set-up. But I don't always look for the cheap way out, just the best.

    You mentioned Ladder 49. You used it as a rationale for purchasing. If you didn't mean it don't say it.

    $4500 for a Scott with spare cylinder? LMAO!! We paid just under $2300 for the base unit, got the SEMS for another $1200 per unit and FREE spare cylinders. If you got quoted $4500 AND paid for the spare cylinders I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

    If you like your Draegers...again FANTASTIC, I couldn't be happier for you. But you are trying TOO HARD to convince others that it is the only choice. I can't help but wonder if you are still trying to convince yourself of that.

    As for me, I am done with you. I find your style of discourse irritating and childish. So respond if you choose but I won't reply to you any further on this topic.

    FyredUp

  14. #34
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    SCBAguy....

    Have the isues with your NXG2's been resolved? I am curious if it is just a local problem with your packs or more than that. When I spoke with that student at the tech school he didn't mention any of the problems you stated in your first post.

    Thanks,

    FyredUp

  15. #35
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    No one around here has ever used Drager. A couple departments used to have ISI, but have switched. All youll find now is Scott, MSA or SurviveAir (most use Scott).

    As for the US Special Forces useing Drager, two words. LOW BID.
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  16. #36
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Originally posted by FyredUp
    Samson...

    Merlin...sounds a lot like the SEMS system we got on our AP-50's. We can momitor all 16 of our SCBA's when they are in use. They go on line as soon as the air is turned on. Gives us air remaining, notice of a PASS activation, ability to send in a withdrawal message and for the user to send out that they are evacuating.


    Similar.

    If I planned on SCUBA diving I would not jury rig something together to make it work. I would buy a dedicated SCUBA set-up. But I don't always look for the cheap way out, just the best.


    Homebuilt SCUBA is a hobby.

    http://kopka.at/english.htm

    I already have SCUBA gear. Building a Custom 4500 psi dive rig is NOT the cheap way out, in fact it will be nearly 2-3 times as expensive as a regular set up. The cylinders alone are a huge expense.

    I will have a BC with 2 4500 60 min carbon bottles, full face mask, etc...

    It will be neat, pure and simple. I only wish I could have found Drager Components, they would make me breath much easier...no pun intended.

    You mentioned Ladder 49. You used it as a rationale for purchasing. If you didn't mean it don't say it.


    You should be clear on this by now. We bought our Dragers before Ladder 49 hence its is immpossible for that to be a rational for our purchasing Drager.

    Your pathetic atemps to put words in my mouth are weak and pathetic. LOL!

    $4500 for a Scott with spare cylinder? LMAO!! We paid just under $2300 for the base unit, got the SEMS for another $1200 per unit and FREE spare cylinders. If you got quoted $4500 AND paid for the spare cylinders I have a bridge I would like to sell you.


    We didnt pay anything for Scott cylinders. We bought Drager.

    If you like your Draegers...again FANTASTIC, I couldn't be happier for you. But you are trying TOO HARD to convince others that it is the only choice. I can't help but wonder if you are still trying to convince yourself of that.


    Its wonderful you are happy for us.

    I have no reason to "convice" others about anything, I am simply stating facts.

    I have met the burden of proof for all of your questions.

    Where is your proof for you claims? Where is your information on Scott airpacks.

    Waiting.

    As for me, I am done with you. I find your style of discourse irritating and childish. So respond if you choose but I won't reply to you any further on this topic.

    FyredUp
    Yet again you are desperate enough to resort to personal attacks.

    Concession Accepted.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

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    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  17. #37
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    Maaaaaaaaaaan....how does such an easy post turn into the romper room debate on which is better, White Milk or Chocolate Milk, Animal crackers or Oreo's......(Oreo's by the way with white milk) : ) lol

  18. #38
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captjab
    Maaaaaaaaaaan....how does such an easy post turn into the romper room debate on which is better, White Milk or Chocolate Milk, Animal crackers or Oreo's......(Oreo's by the way with white milk) : ) lol
    Hey, I like my ladies like I like my milk...chocolot and fat free.



    These news smilies are cool.

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  19. #39
    Forum Member scbaguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp
    SCBAguy....

    Have the isues with your NXG2's been resolved? I am curious if it is just a local problem with your packs or more than that. When I spoke with that student at the tech school he didn't mention any of the problems you stated in your first post.

    Thanks,

    FyredUp
    What problems? What issues? I simply made an announcment that my department had switched over to a new to the market SCBA.

    My "announcment" thread has turned into ****ing contest, and somehow after that I guess people got confused and thought I said we had had problems. I didn't, and we don't. At least not yet that I know of.

    I simply thought that I and my department, might have knowlage or insight that might be of value to others, and if so, they were welcome to ask.

    For what little it's worth: My haz-mat has Scott AP50's, the bomb squad has Dreagers, , and operations has just switched over to Scott NXG2's. I've used all of them at least a llittle, and all work.

  20. #40
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scbaguy
    What problems? What issues? I simply made an announcment that my department had switched over to a new to the market SCBA.

    My "announcment" thread has turned into ****ing contest, and somehow after that I guess people got confused and thought I said we had had problems. I didn't, and we don't. At least not yet that I know of.

    I simply thought that I and my department, might have knowlage or insight that might be of value to others, and if so, they were welcome to ask.

    For what little it's worth: My haz-mat has Scott AP50's, the bomb squad has Dreagers, , and operations has just switched over to Scott NXG2's. I've used all of them at least a llittle, and all work.
    What did the HAZMAT and Ops guys do to **** off the procurement people...

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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