1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    A little more reading miscomprehension I see.I have EVERY confidence in Scott products to sustain my life in firefighting AS THEIR PRODUCTS WERE INTENDED. I do have a problem with a monkey f***ed application UNDERWATER for which THEY WERE NOT INTENDED.See above post.I've worn a Drager.And quite frankly,I was no where near as inpressed as you seem to be.If they fit you needs,fine.I've got four field techs on staff who regularly look after our packs and perform any servicing required between "benches".To date,there have been ZERO issues but it's still nice to have the capability.Safety alerts? Yes we get them promptly from our dealer IPS in Wilmington,Mass. No pack I'm aware of is exempt from issues and when a "issue"is identified I appreciate the Mfg being kind enough and supporting their product in such a way that I can track any potential problem.And I believe it was YOU who brought the Taurus/Subaru into play.Being a shop owner by trade,I found it quite amusing.By chance have you ever really studied service history or service procedure on the various packs being used today.If you had,you would find that the Drager isn't really the easiest pack to service.Look at an MSA regulator sometime.Or study the service histories on the 4.5's in heavy service such as New York or Boston.Look at the "up"time on these packs.Now I don't see them in "blue",I wonder why? Not really,I can say it in one word: RELIABILITY.But this thread wasn't/isn't about my pack is better than your pack,it's about aquiring new packs and things you need to know to keep them working.Valuable information REGARDLESS of who's pack you use.My opinions are from using a product for 37 years on the line.And yours? I'm done. T.C.

    Provide the information you suggest, I will study it.

    Or are you like the rest of the Scott Bandwagon around here? Making lots of claims but never once satisfying the burden of proof.

    Shop owner? What kind of shop? How about a link, I might give you some buisness keeping my Scott gear in working order! HA!
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    OH, and if you think that taking a Scott 4.5 first stage reg and 2 scott bottles is an extream/risky applicaiton then dont even LOOK at the biopak/homebuilt rebreather guys....

    http://www.scuba-equipment-usa.com/homebuiltrb.html

    http://www.therebreathersite.nl/biop...40_rebuild.htm

    Not for the faint of heart.
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    Scott has a bandwagon for a reason.... they are damn reliable! The Scott AP50 and 4.5 are the SCBA used at the Massachusetts Firefighting Academy, worn by the instructional and support staff as well as the students. They are put through hell on a daily basis, and still work.

    North: a joke

    ISI: A new model every year or so... why?

    Survivaire: A few FD's here in MA have them.. the ones I have seen brought to the Academy for use in the Structural Firefighting Practices class have had problems.

    MSA: A decent pack, but too damn many straps to deal with.

    Interspiro: A firefighter on my group is a firefighter in the Air National Guard. They use Interspiro, he does not care for them at all.

    Draeger: Tried it, nothing too impressive.


    Samson... why don't you offer proof of Draeger's superiority?

    PS: Why are you trying to adapt a fire based SCBA to a SCUBA setup? It's like trying to adapt a Cessna to fly a mission that the Space Shuttle would!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    Scott has a bandwagon for a reason.... they are damn reliable! The Scott AP50 and 4.5 are the SCBA used at the Massachusetts Firefighting Academy, worn by the instructional and support staff as well as the students. They are put through hell on a daily basis, and still work.
    [/b]

    Wonderfull for MA Fire Academy

    Samson... why don't you offer proof of Draeger's superiority?


    I have provided proof and sources for the majority of the specific questions and accusations regaurding Drager.

    There has not been a single shred of proof, evidence, or sources regaurding any of the claims about Scott...EXCEPT for the evidence I have provided regaurding safety/failure issues with their facepieces.

    Its time the Scott crowd either puts up or shuts up.

    The burden of proof is on you gentlemen.

    PS: Why are you trying to adapt a fire based SCBA to a SCUBA setup? It's like trying to adapt a Cessna to fly a mission that the Space Shuttle would!


    For the same reason that there are people that adapt Biopak Rebreathers for SCUBA or for the same reason that anybody does anything inovative.

    Because I can and because I enjoy inovation in my hobby.

    There are no commercialy available 4500 psi dive rigs that I know of.

    I like 4500 psi cylinders because you can pack more air into a smaller space.

    There are always those who like to push the limits, find that edge, and inovate.

    If there were no explorers the world would still be small and flat.
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    OK, here is a dive rig that even I would think twice about strapping on...


    http://www.therebreathersite.nl/ralph_buscemi_ccr.htm


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    I have provided proof and sources for the majority of the specific questions and accusations regaurding Drager.
    And this is your proof?
    Scott sucks. Drager Rules.
    Drager was the first, and the best. Forever. Dragerman
    What SCBA has a LIFETIME warranty?

    What SCBA has a mask that is can seal to all types of faces with one size?

    What other SCBA was the FIRST SCBA in existance?

    What SCBA was the SCBA in the blockbuster Ladder 49?

    What SCBA is the world recognized leader in extream cold weather operations?

    What breathing apparatus (SCBA, Rebreather, SCUBA) is the choice of US military special forces?

    What SCBA is the world leader in the SCBA market?

    Drager, thats what SCBA.

    What SCBA came out nearly 50 YEARS after Drager?

    What SCBA is NOT the leader in the WORLD SCBA market?

    What SCBA has face pieces that routienly crack?

    SCOTT, thats what SCBA.

    Drager is better then Scott, deal with it

    You have asked for proof, for reasoning, for a lot of things, i have provided proof, flawless logic, and accurate commentary.
    Proof? no. Flawless logic? No. Acuurate commentary? Hardly.



    Wonderfull for MA Fire Academy
    It's a real world application, as is Boston, FDNY, etc. etc. etc.

    For the same reason that there are people that adapt Biopak Rebreathers for SCUBA or for the same reason that anybody does anything inovative.

    Because I can and because I enjoy inovation in my hobby.

    There are no commercialy available 4500 psi dive rigs that I know of.

    I like 4500 psi cylinders because you can pack more air into a smaller space.

    There are always those who like to push the limits, find that edge, and inovate.

    If there were no explorers the world would still be small and flat
    Feel free... it's your life, not mine.

    On second thought, your homemade setup fails, and other divers wearing legitimate SCUBA devices will have to come and either rescue you or recover the body...

    I just hope your survivors don't sue Scott for not having a warning saying that "this SCBA should not be altered for use in SCUBA applications".
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 08-08-2005 at 04:25 PM.
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    Now lessee,the last time I checked my dive safety list,it didn't list breathe water in case of homemade Scuba device failure.I do recall something about redundant regulators,etc though.Living on the edge,now there's a really good idea for diving.Glad my rescue divers don't share that opinion,they have a tendency to lean toward the safety side.Guess that comes from pulling too many lifeless "divers" out of the water.As far as my "site",you can look us up on the Iatn site,it's as close as we get to E-line advertising.I'll see if I can "link"you up to a few regulators,though I doubt it will serve much benefit.But hey,whatever you're into as long as it doesn't expose me/mine to extreme risk. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    And this is your proof?


    Proof? no. Flawless logic? No. Acuuraye commentary? Hardly.
    [/b]

    Rescue101 asked for proof and sources regaurding Drager info.

    Those were provided.

    Or did you selectively decide to ignor that little fack?

    It's a real world application, as is Boston, FDNY, etc. etc. etc.


    Your point? There is somebody somewhere in the world using every single kind of SCBA...even North.

    All real world applications.

    Feel free... it's your life, not mine.


    Oh my, thanks for your permission.

    On second thought, your homemade setup fails, and other divers wearing legitimate SCUBA devices will have to come and either rescue you or recover the body...


    LOL, well, my fellow divers on the SO S&R Dive team would probly get a kick out of that! They too think I am a bit twisted.

    Thank god they have Drager gear!

    But I still maintain I am not nearly as twisted as somebody making a homemade rebreather!

    Oh, and I DO have a personal "Legitimate" dive rig and access to the S&R harcore gear.

    I still want to make my 4500psi rig...

    You cant stop me! HA!

    I just hope your survivors don't sue Scott for not having a warning saying that "this SCBA should not be altered for use in SCUBA applications".


    I hope they do! LOL!

    Scott overchargers anyway! LOL! HA!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    Now lessee,the last time I checked my dive safety list,it didn't list breathe water in case of homemade Scuba device failure.I do recall something about redundant regulators,etc though.Living on the edge,now there's a really good idea for diving.Glad my rescue divers don't share that opinion,they have a tendency to lean toward the safety side.Guess that comes from pulling too many lifeless "divers" out of the water.As far as my "site",you can look us up on the Iatn site,it's as close as we get to E-line advertising.I'll see if I can "link"you up to a few regulators,though I doubt it will serve much benefit.But hey,whatever you're into as long as it doesn't expose me/mine to extreme risk. T.C.
    Make sure to follow the links I provided to the HOMEBUILT rebreathers and such to let them know that they are in violating of your dive safety list!

    I would like to hear their reaction, please share it!

    I would not dive with something unless I trusted it. LOL, I have a Scott reg in the plans so you could say I trust Scott, which I do. I simply prefer Drager in SCBA applicaitons, and if I could aford a personal Drager Dolphin I would dive with that too!

    I provided an example of what I WOUDLNT dive with, that PVC pipe/acrilic/vacume cleaner rebreather.

    Whats a Iatn site? What kind of shop do you have?

    Your concern (and others) for my safety is touching, but dont worry about me, I will be just fine.

    Diving with a home assembled (facotory built) 4500psi dive rig is one of the far lesser risky things I have done. As a kid growning up on a MT ranch I have done far risker things as a matter of routine.
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    Samson, your "facks" are just frackin' feldecarb. ( google "Battlestar Galactica" for explanation!)

    Brothers and Sisters, Sampson isn't going to change his opinion. He wants to be the chairman of the Draeger fan club...let him... it will keep him out of mischief until he decides to dive with his homebuilt SCUBA stuff.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Is an SCBA with a lifetime warranty anything like a parachute with a lifetime warranty?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    Samson, your "facks" are just frackin' feldecarb. ( google "Battlestar Galactica" for explanation!)

    Brothers and Sisters, Sampson isn't going to change his opinion. He wants to be the chairman of the Draeger fan club...let him... it will keep him out of mischief until he decides to dive with his homebuilt SCUBA stuff.


    I think your brain has "frackured". LOL! I of course ment FAC[b]T[b/]!

    LOL, and the Scott fanclub is not going to change their opinion...DID YOU EXPECT ANYTHING ELESE?

    Drager still perfectly operational...AFTER 78 YEARS! LOL, find me a scott breathing apparatus that old...oh wait, you cant!

    http://www.draeger.com/ST/internet/p...GhistoryAT.pdf

    When the going gets to tough for regular SCBAs, Chicago fire goes for the one SCBA that can get the job done, DRAGER!

    http://www.draeger.com/ST/internet/p...tandardsAT.pdf

    Drager service and support! I bet Baltimore is more then please, I bet they are forever "Dragermen"! "Draegermen, we are saved!"

    http://www.draeger.com/ST/internet/p...rainfireAT.pdf

    Scott fails again!

    http://www.firetimes.com/story.asp?FragID=6378

    The discovery alarms some of the city's Bravest.

    "Everyone's nervous about what's going on," said 12th Battalion Chief Bill Vanwart. "We'd be the first line of defense . . . we certainly have to take care of this
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    Default whoa whoa fanboy...

    If you are going to be the chairman of the Draeger fan club..

    Damn it... at least spell the name right!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Exclamation

    I know of a local department who is not happy with thier NGX2's ....and over the last 18 months gotten so frustrated they called Scott to come and get them. I will see what a search can dig up since it is going again ............bbl.




    Search still not up and going fully ............only got 2 results from ngx2......
    Last edited by Weruj1; 08-08-2005 at 07:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    If you are going to be the chairman of the Draeger fan club..

    Damn it... at least spell the name right!
    Like this?

    Dräger

    I dont know how to make the little dots, unless i copy and pase...

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    ngx2
    Might get more results with NXG2
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    Samson,Another good analogy.The Ford Taurus has been a rock stable platform since it's introduction.The Subaru(like the Drager)has had to constantly "re-invent"itself in order to perpetuate sales..
    OMG! LOL, talk about stickng your foot in your mouth!

    LOL, Look at Scott! Having to "re-invent" inself wit the NXG2 to try and perpetuate sales!

    OMG LOL!!!!

    Sounds like they realy screwed up!

    Quote Originally Posted by Weruj1
    I know of a local department who is not happy with thier NGX2's ....and over the last 18 months gotten so frustrated they called Scott to come and get them. I will see what a search can dig up since it is going again ............bbl.
    There are many more reports that the NXG2, the ULTIMATE SCOTT SCBA, is a piece of junk!

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    I always here about Interspiro and the Airforce and what junk they are. But are not the majority of these units 10+ years old? I have never heard in these threads a direct experience just "a friend of mine in the air guard or when I was in the air force 15 years ago" comments.

    What are the real problems with the Interspiro SCBA?

    Not that matters much to me, my FD uses Scott.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    Actually, some of the busiest departments use Scotts because they started with Scott. Can you imagine the chaos created by trying ti switch the NYC FD to something like ISI. The interoperability issues and training issues would be huge. You can't use the ISI bottle on a Scott air pack, but you can use the Scott bottle on an ISI. The ISI is simpler and easier to use than the Scott. Care and maintenance is much easier on the ISI.

    In a nutshell, The big departments are Scott because they started with Scott. I see many small departments dumping their Scotts and switching to the ISI Air Packs. This is especially true in areas where the number of actual fires is relatively small. The ease of use has a lot to do with it.
    Just about all of the SCBA cylibders are made buy one manufacturer: Luxfer.

    While most cylimders are interchangeable among the brands, if there is a scba failure and it is discovered that one used, for example a Scott bottle in a MSA unit and or vice versa, any form of warranty would be voided.

    As far as "many FD's dumping Scotts and going to ISI", ease of use has nothing to do with it. Most SCBA donning procedures are exactly the same.

    The reason is price.

    In 1989, we had a fire in an ink manufacturing facility that contaminated a lot of turnouts and SCBA. The Department borrowed SCBA units from the Massachusetts Fire Academy under an emergency loan until the SCBA was replaced. The FD solicited bids through the Procurement Office at City Hall.

    North (the low bidder) got the bid to replace the scba. We had them for just one year. They were the most "unfirefirefighter friendly" pieces of scutta.

    Another fire in a chemical plant in town caused the replacement of the FD's SCBA. This time, the company who had the fire and had very deep pockets asked "what do you want?" We went to the Scott 4.5 and got 15 years of trouble free service. We recieved a FIRE act grant and upgarded everything to the AP50, with integrated PASS, buddy breathing, HUD and 45 minute bottles.

    The only chnage I would like to see is in the HUD. In addition to the lights that alert you to your air supply status, there should be a "Hey dummy! It's your PASS going off!" display in the HUD!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Just about all of the SCBA cylibders are made buy one manufacturer: Luxfer.
    True, but only Scott requires a metal clip on their bottle to hold it in place, therefore making no one elses bottles able to fit a Scott SCBA (and we won't even discuss the jack@$$ NXG2 setup )


    Also, bottles with other manufacturers markings can be used "in an emergency" per OSHA. But it had better be a true emergency.
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    Truth is,in a pinch you can use a bottle WITHOUT the clip.We've got enough spares that it's never been an issue. Now getting back to "ISI ease of use".I've worn an ISI and I don't see how it has any advantage in "ease of use"over a Scott.Red dot up,dock and 1/4 twist to the left.Now that's complicated.No air switches,no little sliding anything besides the lock.Goes back to what Gonzo and I have been saying:LONG TERM reliability and cost of ownership. Show me your ISI and Dragers after 25-30 years of front line work.Show me the maintainence logs for the same period. This is an accurate way to judge a packs overall cost of ownership. The 2.2/4.5 up to the AP50 is a bullet proof platform with a long and successful service history.Whether you like Scott or not,this is a time proven fact. NXG's? Well,that's another story.But the problems WILL get fixed.I'm still not interested.If the others(ISI/Drager) are what trips your trigger,so be it.But personally,I don't think either will beat a Scott for severe service over a quarter of a century.Time will tell,but speaking only for my FD we'll be with Scott for a long time. T.C.

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    a couple of thoughts:

    for the ISI fans: check out

    http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/averted.php

    also, for you scott fans:

    Bullet proof platform. All Scott has done is move the regulator aroung the scba over the course of 15 years. Now they come up with a truly new design, and it's crap. Also, if you check out the same link above, you will see problems with the Scott's. Broken frame, roll pins coming out and facepieces cracking. I have a true story/comment for you Scott fans:

    We all have our own masks, this is a good thing. Now, a member is diagnosed with viral meningitis, do you want to use the regulator he used last. Which one was it? How long has he had this? Could these be why Phoenix and Charlotte issue personal regulators? Makes you think, doesn't it?

    I think it's all what your departments has success with. I personally would stick with the top 3 in the US: Scott, MSA and Survivair. As with anything else, dealer support is important.

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    Rofd,Where did they move the regulator? Since the inception of the 4.5 it's been the same place on the backframe give or take an inch.Contaminated regulators? Certainly not unique to Scott and they've got an easy fix.Quick connects and individual regulators.Back frames cracking? We had one abused wireframe with a crack.Replaced with a AP50.I've had O failures with the new backframe.NEVER had a pin come out and the facepiece "failures" have been covered here and in other posts at some length.We use Scott multiwash on the Regulators after each use. Each of our packs is carefully inspected weekly which might explain why we don't have pin and harness issues.As I mentioned,around here it's either Scott or MSA.No support for Suprise air so not any around that I know of.As you so correctly state,your dealer/support structure is what makes a good mask.Seems though I mentioned that earlier.And the NXG2,while I don't care for them,is still using the regulator that has been used for years,they just added that oddball quik change bottle and upped the electronics.And guess where the problems are?Not in the "bulletproof platform"group,that still works as well as it always has. The electronics and quick change? Hehe,I withhold my opinion. Eventually the bugs will get worked out,probably why we don't buy anything until it's been out a while.Let someone else beta test. T.C.

  24. #74
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    Bones42's Avatar
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    the secret list
    I like being quoted there.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  25. #75
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    Oh Man, I can't believe that this thread has hit five pages.

    And I also can't belevie that you guys are all letting Samson get to you, he's obviously doing it just to start a fight.

    We discussed this a while ago in another thread, and I did the subsequent research, so I know he is definitely right on a couple of points.

    1. Draegar is the oldest SCBA manufacturer. This is well documented not only on thier history page, but on many mine rescue history sites too.

    2. Draegar is the most widely used SCBA in the world, not just in FF'ing, but in all industry. Scott is not nearly worldwide yet.

    We switched from MSA to Draegar about 15 years ago, and recently upgraded to the new 4500's. Around here, most career departments use Draegar, including Calgary AB, and much smaller Cranbrook BC (our two biggest neighbour cities). The smaller regional volley depts are a mix of all major manufacturers.

    I have used them all, and while I like Draegar a lot, I also like Scott a lot. Both are excellent systems, and I would be happy with either. As for features, all manufacters work like auto manufacturers. One creates something new, and the others adopt it within a couple of years.


    I feel for you SCBA Guy. Another perfect hijack!
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

    IACOJ

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