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  1. #41
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Sorry SCBAguy...it was Hozman having problems not you.

    Sorry if I offended you.

    FyredUp


  2. #42
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    "The wireless system by its very nature is a better system as it eliminates the wireing required to connect the mast to the pack. The wireing running along the air line is just one more thing that can break."

    Actually, just the opposite is true. A wireless system must have a modulator and a demodualtor to handle the carrier. It must also have a tranmitter and a receiver. Wireless systems are also much more complex. Wireless systems are also suspectible to interference from other sources. These sources can be other radios, transmitters, electricla poser lines and host of other sources. Wired in this case is far better. You can trust me here, I'm an Electrical Engineer.

    Just heard of a Fire Company in the Buffalo area that bought MSA (maybe 16) a year ago. They are looking to get rid of them and chnage to something else. I beleive they are actually considering the ISI packs.

    I did talk to the ISI sales guy (beware of the sales guy )But he tells me that the sticky switch is a result of not properly cleaning the face piece. As for the other failures I cannot comment. I can say this, there is not one pack on the market that doesn't fail or break. They all do. What would be nice if you could get an independent lab to test the packs for durability.
    In all seriousness, I do try to study these things closely. I dont have any prejudece or promlems against any sort of equipment, if it works use it.

    It is however fun to poke the Scott guys with a stick because they are rabid fan boys.



    Those problems from ISI vikings I wrote about I have mostly read about on here. There is only 1 department that uses those around here, and they have only had the frozen spit problem in the airswitch (at 20+ below zero actualy temp!). Otherwise ISI does have a ton of neat features on their packs. I just am skeptical about the quality.

    I will take your word on the wireless hud. I can only say we have never had ay problems. If you are standing right next to your buddy and you both open your bottles at the same time then there is a chance that you will pick up his wireless signal/visa versa, but if you walk apart about 3 feet or more they straighten out. This was covered in the training the Drager rep gave us.

    That was another awsome thing from Drager, they sent a factory rep out to train us! This was only for 12 SCBAs!

    We have not yet had any trouble with "electricla poser lines".

    I honestly and not even that hardcore of a Drager fan (I am making my custom SCUBA rig from a scot 4.5 afterall). I just cant believe the blind faith in Scott that many have. Brand loyalty is one thing, but driving a ford taurus no matter what the conditions when there is a Subaru outback there is another. Or something like that.

    Keep safe.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  3. #43
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    but if you walk apart about 3 feet or more they straighten out.
    So much for staying in contact with your partner during a fire.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #44
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    So much for staying in contact with your partner during a fire.


    Your HUD locks onto you pack, then you can get as close as you want...

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  5. #45
    MembersZone Subscriber firefighterbeau's Avatar
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    Our dept uses the new NXG2 and we have had problems with the LEDs flashing the wrong color at the wrong times air low is supposed to be yellow or red they would still flash green. The local guy repaired them with a new computer board or something. We have also been having problems with batteries. every 30days the paks need new batterys, I'm not sure if this is still an issue as the chief has been doing all the SCBA checks to keep a close eye on it. Other than that the paks have been working excellent.

  6. #46
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    My department just did testing for new airpacks and decided to go with the NXG2. We tested Surviair's panther, Drager's PS100, MSA's, ISI's viking and the scott. We currently have Surviair Sigmas from 93 and 94, so it will be a big step up. We'll get 20-25, packs high pressure 45min. SCBAguy I'd love to hear your's are working out, were doing a complete switch and info always great.

  7. #47
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Drager, always inovating.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  8. #48
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Samson,Another good analogy.The Ford Taurus has been a rock stable platform since it's introduction.The Subaru(like the Drager)has had to constantly "re-invent"itself in order to perpetuate sales.From the Loyale to the Outback now to the Tribeca. "Rabid Scott"fans/"blind faith":NEITHER! I'm not Rabid nor BLIND! But I do have a fond spot for a troublefree(rare in this day and age)product that does what it is supposed to when it's supposed to day in and day out for over a quarter of a century. There is a REASON some of the BUSIEST Fire Depts in the US use Scott and I can assure you it has NOTHING to do with "blind faith".It does however have quite a lot to do with PRODUCT DEPENDABILITY.Using a 4.5 for diving? MODIFIED? Well there's another good idea. NOT! T.C.

  9. #49
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    Samson,Another good analogy.The Ford Taurus has been a rock stable platform since it's introduction.The Subaru(like the Drager)has had to constantly "re-invent"itself in order to perpetuate sales.From the Loyale to the Outback now to the Tribeca. "Rabid Scott"fans/"blind faith":NEITHER! I'm not Rabid nor BLIND! But I do have a fond spot for a troublefree(rare in this day and age)product that does what it is supposed to when it's supposed to day in and day out for over a quarter of a century. There is a REASON some of the BUSIEST Fire Depts in the US use Scott and I can assure you it has NOTHING to do with "blind faith".It does however have quite a lot to do with PRODUCT DEPENDABILITY.Using a 4.5 for diving? MODIFIED? Well there's another good idea. NOT! T.C.


    Your analogy is retarded. We are talking about SCBAs, not cars.

    Drager has been the world best selling SCBA since long before Scott was even around.

    Scott is not trouble free. I suggest for your own safety that you read the Scott issues safety bullitens.

    There is a Reason that some of the BUSIEST Fire Departments in the WORLD use Drager. That reason is Drager was the first and is the best.

    Oh, now your Scott equipment is not trustworth enough to supply air for Scuba, huh? LOL

    Here is my rig (in progress, not completed)

    - Boyance compensator, 2 bottle set up with octopus and spare air, and lights.
    - 2 Carbon 60min Scott Cylinders.
    - 1 Scott 4500psi first stage regulator
    - Hardware/lines to connect 2 cylinders to Scott First Stage then Scott first stage to Octopus

    LOL, you dont have enough faith in Scott to trust it sustain life, yet I do...and I STILL think Drager is better.

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  10. #50
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    A little more reading miscomprehension I see.I have EVERY confidence in Scott products to sustain my life in firefighting AS THEIR PRODUCTS WERE INTENDED. I do have a problem with a monkey f***ed application UNDERWATER for which THEY WERE NOT INTENDED.See above post.I've worn a Drager.And quite frankly,I was no where near as inpressed as you seem to be.If they fit your needs,fine.I've got four field techs on staff who regularly look after our packs and perform any servicing required between "benches".To date,there have been ZERO issues but it's still nice to have the capability.Safety alerts? Yes we get them promptly from our dealer IPS in Wilmington,Mass. No pack I'm aware of is exempt from issues and when a "issue"is identified I appreciate the Mfg being kind enough and supporting their product in such a way that I can track any potential problem.And I believe it was YOU who brought the Taurus/Subaru into play.Being a shop owner by trade,I found it quite amusing.By chance have you ever really studied service history or service procedure on the various packs being used today.If you had,you would find that the Drager isn't really the easiest pack to service.Look at an MSA regulator sometime.Or study the service histories on the 4.5's in heavy service such as New York or Boston.Look at the "up"time on these packs.Now I don't see them in "blue",I wonder why? Not really,I can say it in one word: RELIABILITY.But this thread wasn't/isn't about my pack is better than your pack,it's about aquiring new packs and things you need to know to keep them working.Valuable information REGARDLESS of who's pack you use.My opinions are from using a product for 37 years on the line.And yours? I'm done. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 08-08-2005 at 04:00 PM.

  11. #51
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    A little more reading miscomprehension I see.I have EVERY confidence in Scott products to sustain my life in firefighting AS THEIR PRODUCTS WERE INTENDED. I do have a problem with a monkey f***ed application UNDERWATER for which THEY WERE NOT INTENDED.See above post.I've worn a Drager.And quite frankly,I was no where near as inpressed as you seem to be.If they fit you needs,fine.I've got four field techs on staff who regularly look after our packs and perform any servicing required between "benches".To date,there have been ZERO issues but it's still nice to have the capability.Safety alerts? Yes we get them promptly from our dealer IPS in Wilmington,Mass. No pack I'm aware of is exempt from issues and when a "issue"is identified I appreciate the Mfg being kind enough and supporting their product in such a way that I can track any potential problem.And I believe it was YOU who brought the Taurus/Subaru into play.Being a shop owner by trade,I found it quite amusing.By chance have you ever really studied service history or service procedure on the various packs being used today.If you had,you would find that the Drager isn't really the easiest pack to service.Look at an MSA regulator sometime.Or study the service histories on the 4.5's in heavy service such as New York or Boston.Look at the "up"time on these packs.Now I don't see them in "blue",I wonder why? Not really,I can say it in one word: RELIABILITY.But this thread wasn't/isn't about my pack is better than your pack,it's about aquiring new packs and things you need to know to keep them working.Valuable information REGARDLESS of who's pack you use.My opinions are from using a product for 37 years on the line.And yours? I'm done. T.C.

    Provide the information you suggest, I will study it.

    Or are you like the rest of the Scott Bandwagon around here? Making lots of claims but never once satisfying the burden of proof.

    Shop owner? What kind of shop? How about a link, I might give you some buisness keeping my Scott gear in working order! HA!
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  12. #52
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    OH, and if you think that taking a Scott 4.5 first stage reg and 2 scott bottles is an extream/risky applicaiton then dont even LOOK at the biopak/homebuilt rebreather guys....

    http://www.scuba-equipment-usa.com/homebuiltrb.html

    http://www.therebreathersite.nl/biop...40_rebuild.htm

    Not for the faint of heart.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  13. #53
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Scott has a bandwagon for a reason.... they are damn reliable! The Scott AP50 and 4.5 are the SCBA used at the Massachusetts Firefighting Academy, worn by the instructional and support staff as well as the students. They are put through hell on a daily basis, and still work.

    North: a joke

    ISI: A new model every year or so... why?

    Survivaire: A few FD's here in MA have them.. the ones I have seen brought to the Academy for use in the Structural Firefighting Practices class have had problems.

    MSA: A decent pack, but too damn many straps to deal with.

    Interspiro: A firefighter on my group is a firefighter in the Air National Guard. They use Interspiro, he does not care for them at all.

    Draeger: Tried it, nothing too impressive.


    Samson... why don't you offer proof of Draeger's superiority?

    PS: Why are you trying to adapt a fire based SCBA to a SCUBA setup? It's like trying to adapt a Cessna to fly a mission that the Space Shuttle would!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  14. #54
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    Scott has a bandwagon for a reason.... they are damn reliable! The Scott AP50 and 4.5 are the SCBA used at the Massachusetts Firefighting Academy, worn by the instructional and support staff as well as the students. They are put through hell on a daily basis, and still work.
    [/b]

    Wonderfull for MA Fire Academy

    Samson... why don't you offer proof of Draeger's superiority?


    I have provided proof and sources for the majority of the specific questions and accusations regaurding Drager.

    There has not been a single shred of proof, evidence, or sources regaurding any of the claims about Scott...EXCEPT for the evidence I have provided regaurding safety/failure issues with their facepieces.

    Its time the Scott crowd either puts up or shuts up.

    The burden of proof is on you gentlemen.

    PS: Why are you trying to adapt a fire based SCBA to a SCUBA setup? It's like trying to adapt a Cessna to fly a mission that the Space Shuttle would!


    For the same reason that there are people that adapt Biopak Rebreathers for SCUBA or for the same reason that anybody does anything inovative.

    Because I can and because I enjoy inovation in my hobby.

    There are no commercialy available 4500 psi dive rigs that I know of.

    I like 4500 psi cylinders because you can pack more air into a smaller space.

    There are always those who like to push the limits, find that edge, and inovate.

    If there were no explorers the world would still be small and flat.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  15. #55
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    OK, here is a dive rig that even I would think twice about strapping on...


    http://www.therebreathersite.nl/ralph_buscemi_ccr.htm


    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  16. #56
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    I have provided proof and sources for the majority of the specific questions and accusations regaurding Drager.
    And this is your proof?
    Scott sucks. Drager Rules.
    Drager was the first, and the best. Forever. Dragerman
    What SCBA has a LIFETIME warranty?

    What SCBA has a mask that is can seal to all types of faces with one size?

    What other SCBA was the FIRST SCBA in existance?

    What SCBA was the SCBA in the blockbuster Ladder 49?

    What SCBA is the world recognized leader in extream cold weather operations?

    What breathing apparatus (SCBA, Rebreather, SCUBA) is the choice of US military special forces?

    What SCBA is the world leader in the SCBA market?

    Drager, thats what SCBA.

    What SCBA came out nearly 50 YEARS after Drager?

    What SCBA is NOT the leader in the WORLD SCBA market?

    What SCBA has face pieces that routienly crack?

    SCOTT, thats what SCBA.

    Drager is better then Scott, deal with it

    You have asked for proof, for reasoning, for a lot of things, i have provided proof, flawless logic, and accurate commentary.
    Proof? no. Flawless logic? No. Acuurate commentary? Hardly.



    Wonderfull for MA Fire Academy
    It's a real world application, as is Boston, FDNY, etc. etc. etc.

    For the same reason that there are people that adapt Biopak Rebreathers for SCUBA or for the same reason that anybody does anything inovative.

    Because I can and because I enjoy inovation in my hobby.

    There are no commercialy available 4500 psi dive rigs that I know of.

    I like 4500 psi cylinders because you can pack more air into a smaller space.

    There are always those who like to push the limits, find that edge, and inovate.

    If there were no explorers the world would still be small and flat
    Feel free... it's your life, not mine.

    On second thought, your homemade setup fails, and other divers wearing legitimate SCUBA devices will have to come and either rescue you or recover the body...

    I just hope your survivors don't sue Scott for not having a warning saying that "this SCBA should not be altered for use in SCUBA applications".
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 08-08-2005 at 04:25 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  17. #57
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Now lessee,the last time I checked my dive safety list,it didn't list breathe water in case of homemade Scuba device failure.I do recall something about redundant regulators,etc though.Living on the edge,now there's a really good idea for diving.Glad my rescue divers don't share that opinion,they have a tendency to lean toward the safety side.Guess that comes from pulling too many lifeless "divers" out of the water.As far as my "site",you can look us up on the Iatn site,it's as close as we get to E-line advertising.I'll see if I can "link"you up to a few regulators,though I doubt it will serve much benefit.But hey,whatever you're into as long as it doesn't expose me/mine to extreme risk. T.C.

  18. #58
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    And this is your proof?


    Proof? no. Flawless logic? No. Acuuraye commentary? Hardly.
    [/b]

    Rescue101 asked for proof and sources regaurding Drager info.

    Those were provided.

    Or did you selectively decide to ignor that little fack?

    It's a real world application, as is Boston, FDNY, etc. etc. etc.


    Your point? There is somebody somewhere in the world using every single kind of SCBA...even North.

    All real world applications.

    Feel free... it's your life, not mine.


    Oh my, thanks for your permission.

    On second thought, your homemade setup fails, and other divers wearing legitimate SCUBA devices will have to come and either rescue you or recover the body...


    LOL, well, my fellow divers on the SO S&R Dive team would probly get a kick out of that! They too think I am a bit twisted.

    Thank god they have Drager gear!

    But I still maintain I am not nearly as twisted as somebody making a homemade rebreather!

    Oh, and I DO have a personal "Legitimate" dive rig and access to the S&R harcore gear.

    I still want to make my 4500psi rig...

    You cant stop me! HA!

    I just hope your survivors don't sue Scott for not having a warning saying that "this SCBA should not be altered for use in SCUBA applications".


    I hope they do! LOL!

    Scott overchargers anyway! LOL! HA!

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  19. #59
    MembersZone Subscriber SamsonFCDES's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    Now lessee,the last time I checked my dive safety list,it didn't list breathe water in case of homemade Scuba device failure.I do recall something about redundant regulators,etc though.Living on the edge,now there's a really good idea for diving.Glad my rescue divers don't share that opinion,they have a tendency to lean toward the safety side.Guess that comes from pulling too many lifeless "divers" out of the water.As far as my "site",you can look us up on the Iatn site,it's as close as we get to E-line advertising.I'll see if I can "link"you up to a few regulators,though I doubt it will serve much benefit.But hey,whatever you're into as long as it doesn't expose me/mine to extreme risk. T.C.
    Make sure to follow the links I provided to the HOMEBUILT rebreathers and such to let them know that they are in violating of your dive safety list!

    I would like to hear their reaction, please share it!

    I would not dive with something unless I trusted it. LOL, I have a Scott reg in the plans so you could say I trust Scott, which I do. I simply prefer Drager in SCBA applicaitons, and if I could aford a personal Drager Dolphin I would dive with that too!

    I provided an example of what I WOUDLNT dive with, that PVC pipe/acrilic/vacume cleaner rebreather.

    Whats a Iatn site? What kind of shop do you have?

    Your concern (and others) for my safety is touching, but dont worry about me, I will be just fine.

    Diving with a home assembled (facotory built) 4500psi dive rig is one of the far lesser risky things I have done. As a kid growning up on a MT ranch I have done far risker things as a matter of routine.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  20. #60
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Samson, your "facks" are just frackin' feldecarb. ( google "Battlestar Galactica" for explanation!)

    Brothers and Sisters, Sampson isn't going to change his opinion. He wants to be the chairman of the Draeger fan club...let him... it will keep him out of mischief until he decides to dive with his homebuilt SCUBA stuff.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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