1. #61
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    Is an SCBA with a lifetime warranty anything like a parachute with a lifetime warranty?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    Samson, your "facks" are just frackin' feldecarb. ( google "Battlestar Galactica" for explanation!)

    Brothers and Sisters, Sampson isn't going to change his opinion. He wants to be the chairman of the Draeger fan club...let him... it will keep him out of mischief until he decides to dive with his homebuilt SCUBA stuff.


    I think your brain has "frackured". LOL! I of course ment FAC[b]T[b/]!

    LOL, and the Scott fanclub is not going to change their opinion...DID YOU EXPECT ANYTHING ELESE?

    Drager still perfectly operational...AFTER 78 YEARS! LOL, find me a scott breathing apparatus that old...oh wait, you cant!

    http://www.draeger.com/ST/internet/p...GhistoryAT.pdf

    When the going gets to tough for regular SCBAs, Chicago fire goes for the one SCBA that can get the job done, DRAGER!

    http://www.draeger.com/ST/internet/p...tandardsAT.pdf

    Drager service and support! I bet Baltimore is more then please, I bet they are forever "Dragermen"! "Draegermen, we are saved!"

    http://www.draeger.com/ST/internet/p...rainfireAT.pdf

    Scott fails again!

    http://www.firetimes.com/story.asp?FragID=6378

    The discovery alarms some of the city's Bravest.

    "Everyone's nervous about what's going on," said 12th Battalion Chief Bill Vanwart. "We'd be the first line of defense . . . we certainly have to take care of this
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  3. #63
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    Default whoa whoa fanboy...

    If you are going to be the chairman of the Draeger fan club..

    Damn it... at least spell the name right!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  4. #64
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    I know of a local department who is not happy with thier NGX2's ....and over the last 18 months gotten so frustrated they called Scott to come and get them. I will see what a search can dig up since it is going again ............bbl.




    Search still not up and going fully ............only got 2 results from ngx2......
    Last edited by Weruj1; 08-08-2005 at 07:55 PM.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainGonzo
    If you are going to be the chairman of the Draeger fan club..

    Damn it... at least spell the name right!
    Like this?

    Dräger

    I dont know how to make the little dots, unless i copy and pase...

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

  6. #66
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    ngx2
    Might get more results with NXG2
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101
    Samson,Another good analogy.The Ford Taurus has been a rock stable platform since it's introduction.The Subaru(like the Drager)has had to constantly "re-invent"itself in order to perpetuate sales..
    OMG! LOL, talk about stickng your foot in your mouth!

    LOL, Look at Scott! Having to "re-invent" inself wit the NXG2 to try and perpetuate sales!

    OMG LOL!!!!

    Sounds like they realy screwed up!

    Quote Originally Posted by Weruj1
    I know of a local department who is not happy with thier NGX2's ....and over the last 18 months gotten so frustrated they called Scott to come and get them. I will see what a search can dig up since it is going again ............bbl.
    There are many more reports that the NXG2, the ULTIMATE SCOTT SCBA, is a piece of junk!

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    I always here about Interspiro and the Airforce and what junk they are. But are not the majority of these units 10+ years old? I have never heard in these threads a direct experience just "a friend of mine in the air guard or when I was in the air force 15 years ago" comments.

    What are the real problems with the Interspiro SCBA?

    Not that matters much to me, my FD uses Scott.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    Actually, some of the busiest departments use Scotts because they started with Scott. Can you imagine the chaos created by trying ti switch the NYC FD to something like ISI. The interoperability issues and training issues would be huge. You can't use the ISI bottle on a Scott air pack, but you can use the Scott bottle on an ISI. The ISI is simpler and easier to use than the Scott. Care and maintenance is much easier on the ISI.

    In a nutshell, The big departments are Scott because they started with Scott. I see many small departments dumping their Scotts and switching to the ISI Air Packs. This is especially true in areas where the number of actual fires is relatively small. The ease of use has a lot to do with it.
    Just about all of the SCBA cylibders are made buy one manufacturer: Luxfer.

    While most cylimders are interchangeable among the brands, if there is a scba failure and it is discovered that one used, for example a Scott bottle in a MSA unit and or vice versa, any form of warranty would be voided.

    As far as "many FD's dumping Scotts and going to ISI", ease of use has nothing to do with it. Most SCBA donning procedures are exactly the same.

    The reason is price.

    In 1989, we had a fire in an ink manufacturing facility that contaminated a lot of turnouts and SCBA. The Department borrowed SCBA units from the Massachusetts Fire Academy under an emergency loan until the SCBA was replaced. The FD solicited bids through the Procurement Office at City Hall.

    North (the low bidder) got the bid to replace the scba. We had them for just one year. They were the most "unfirefirefighter friendly" pieces of scutta.

    Another fire in a chemical plant in town caused the replacement of the FD's SCBA. This time, the company who had the fire and had very deep pockets asked "what do you want?" We went to the Scott 4.5 and got 15 years of trouble free service. We recieved a FIRE act grant and upgarded everything to the AP50, with integrated PASS, buddy breathing, HUD and 45 minute bottles.

    The only chnage I would like to see is in the HUD. In addition to the lights that alert you to your air supply status, there should be a "Hey dummy! It's your PASS going off!" display in the HUD!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Just about all of the SCBA cylibders are made buy one manufacturer: Luxfer.
    True, but only Scott requires a metal clip on their bottle to hold it in place, therefore making no one elses bottles able to fit a Scott SCBA (and we won't even discuss the jack@$$ NXG2 setup )


    Also, bottles with other manufacturers markings can be used "in an emergency" per OSHA. But it had better be a true emergency.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Truth is,in a pinch you can use a bottle WITHOUT the clip.We've got enough spares that it's never been an issue. Now getting back to "ISI ease of use".I've worn an ISI and I don't see how it has any advantage in "ease of use"over a Scott.Red dot up,dock and 1/4 twist to the left.Now that's complicated.No air switches,no little sliding anything besides the lock.Goes back to what Gonzo and I have been saying:LONG TERM reliability and cost of ownership. Show me your ISI and Dragers after 25-30 years of front line work.Show me the maintainence logs for the same period. This is an accurate way to judge a packs overall cost of ownership. The 2.2/4.5 up to the AP50 is a bullet proof platform with a long and successful service history.Whether you like Scott or not,this is a time proven fact. NXG's? Well,that's another story.But the problems WILL get fixed.I'm still not interested.If the others(ISI/Drager) are what trips your trigger,so be it.But personally,I don't think either will beat a Scott for severe service over a quarter of a century.Time will tell,but speaking only for my FD we'll be with Scott for a long time. T.C.

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    a couple of thoughts:

    for the ISI fans: check out

    http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/averted.php

    also, for you scott fans:

    Bullet proof platform. All Scott has done is move the regulator aroung the scba over the course of 15 years. Now they come up with a truly new design, and it's crap. Also, if you check out the same link above, you will see problems with the Scott's. Broken frame, roll pins coming out and facepieces cracking. I have a true story/comment for you Scott fans:

    We all have our own masks, this is a good thing. Now, a member is diagnosed with viral meningitis, do you want to use the regulator he used last. Which one was it? How long has he had this? Could these be why Phoenix and Charlotte issue personal regulators? Makes you think, doesn't it?

    I think it's all what your departments has success with. I personally would stick with the top 3 in the US: Scott, MSA and Survivair. As with anything else, dealer support is important.

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    Rofd,Where did they move the regulator? Since the inception of the 4.5 it's been the same place on the backframe give or take an inch.Contaminated regulators? Certainly not unique to Scott and they've got an easy fix.Quick connects and individual regulators.Back frames cracking? We had one abused wireframe with a crack.Replaced with a AP50.I've had O failures with the new backframe.NEVER had a pin come out and the facepiece "failures" have been covered here and in other posts at some length.We use Scott multiwash on the Regulators after each use. Each of our packs is carefully inspected weekly which might explain why we don't have pin and harness issues.As I mentioned,around here it's either Scott or MSA.No support for Suprise air so not any around that I know of.As you so correctly state,your dealer/support structure is what makes a good mask.Seems though I mentioned that earlier.And the NXG2,while I don't care for them,is still using the regulator that has been used for years,they just added that oddball quik change bottle and upped the electronics.And guess where the problems are?Not in the "bulletproof platform"group,that still works as well as it always has. The electronics and quick change? Hehe,I withhold my opinion. Eventually the bugs will get worked out,probably why we don't buy anything until it's been out a while.Let someone else beta test. T.C.

  14. #74
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    the secret list
    I like being quoted there.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Oh Man, I can't believe that this thread has hit five pages.

    And I also can't belevie that you guys are all letting Samson get to you, he's obviously doing it just to start a fight.

    We discussed this a while ago in another thread, and I did the subsequent research, so I know he is definitely right on a couple of points.

    1. Draegar is the oldest SCBA manufacturer. This is well documented not only on thier history page, but on many mine rescue history sites too.

    2. Draegar is the most widely used SCBA in the world, not just in FF'ing, but in all industry. Scott is not nearly worldwide yet.

    We switched from MSA to Draegar about 15 years ago, and recently upgraded to the new 4500's. Around here, most career departments use Draegar, including Calgary AB, and much smaller Cranbrook BC (our two biggest neighbour cities). The smaller regional volley depts are a mix of all major manufacturers.

    I have used them all, and while I like Draegar a lot, I also like Scott a lot. Both are excellent systems, and I would be happy with either. As for features, all manufacters work like auto manufacturers. One creates something new, and the others adopt it within a couple of years.


    I feel for you SCBA Guy. Another perfect hijack!
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

    IACOJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell
    Oh Man, I can't believe that this thread has hit five pages.

    And I also can't belevie that you guys are all letting Samson get to you, he's obviously doing it just to start a fight.
    Who, me?

    I was not looking for a "fight", I was stating my opinion and stating facts. Thats called debate.

    Just because the responces have no merit or value doesnt mean that they have to get all emotional...LOL.

    We discussed this a while ago in another thread, and I did the subsequent research, so I know he is definitely right on a couple of points.

    1. Draegar is the oldest SCBA manufacturer. This is well documented not only on thier history page, but on many mine rescue history sites too.

    2. Draegar is the most widely used SCBA in the world, not just in FF'ing, but in all industry. Scott is not nearly worldwide yet.
    I have linked to and documented the history aspect well.

    I seem to have misplaced my links to the sources of Drager worldwide market superiority. Do you have those handy?

    We switched from MSA to Draegar about 15 years ago, and recently upgraded to the new 4500's. Around here, most career departments use Draegar, including Calgary AB, and much smaller Cranbrook BC (our two biggest neighbour cities). The smaller regional volley depts are a mix of all major manufacturers.

    I have used them all, and while I like Draegar a lot, I also like Scott a lot. Both are excellent systems, and I would be happy with either. As for features, all manufacters work like auto manufacturers. One creates something new, and the others adopt it within a couple of years.


    I feel for you SCBA Guy. Another perfect hijack!
    Good for you, you have Drager!
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    I check out that FF close calls link.

    I was AMAZED at how many safety alerts and concerns there were with Scott packs!

    NXG2 sounds like a HORRIBLE piece of junk!

    Scott definatly dropped the ball on that pack, trying to "re-invent" the SCBA to keep sales going. Its to bad that so many departments were caught up in the hype and purchased such a sub par SCBA. Sometimes with Grant money meaning they are STUCK with them for a long time!

    ISI wasnt very impressive either.

    That list of ISI problems I have heard before and are the main reasons we wanted to stay away form them. The freezing up in cold weather was the number 1 factor.

    I actualy like the pack design and look. Its low profile all around and it is easy to use. But there are to many glitches.

    Oh, and there is another pack that operates like the Viking, Torjan. The Intersprior is about the same. The air is connected to the mask all the time, you just switch form SCBA air to ambient air.

    I have yet to find ANY safety bullitens and concerns and such with Drager. Like I said, if you can find any I would be greatly appreciative! I woud like to know if there is anything that I need to check out.

    But so far form my research it seems that Drager is as near to being the perfect SCBA as possible!

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    That list of ISI problems I have heard before
    Yes, it's a list that looks like it was copied from Firehouse.com forums. My comment is on there letter for letter.

    Take some of those comments over there the same as you would here, they are statements by FF's (not always facts), some full of personal feelings, some with no feelings.

    Safety alerts/issues from a company are not feelings posted by a guy.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Yes, it's a list that looks like it was copied from Firehouse.com forums. My comment is on there letter for letter.

    Take some of those comments over there the same as you would here, they are statements by FF's (not always facts), some full of personal feelings, some with no feelings.

    Safety alerts/issues from a company are not feelings posted by a guy.
    Has ISI issued any safety bullitens on those issues to your (anybody) knowledge?
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    We haven't used ISI in quite a few years, but when we did, we never received any information from them about any issues with their packs. Even after we reported our failures to the company.

    We use Survivair now, and yes, I have received safety notices. My other company in town uses Scotts, and yes, they have received safety notices.

    Before anyone asks, no Draeger's in the area.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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