1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaldwell
    Oh Man, I can't believe that this thread has hit five pages.

    And I also can't belevie that you guys are all letting Samson get to you, he's obviously doing it just to start a fight.
    Who, me?

    I was not looking for a "fight", I was stating my opinion and stating facts. Thats called debate.

    Just because the responces have no merit or value doesnt mean that they have to get all emotional...LOL.

    We discussed this a while ago in another thread, and I did the subsequent research, so I know he is definitely right on a couple of points.

    1. Draegar is the oldest SCBA manufacturer. This is well documented not only on thier history page, but on many mine rescue history sites too.

    2. Draegar is the most widely used SCBA in the world, not just in FF'ing, but in all industry. Scott is not nearly worldwide yet.
    I have linked to and documented the history aspect well.

    I seem to have misplaced my links to the sources of Drager worldwide market superiority. Do you have those handy?

    We switched from MSA to Draegar about 15 years ago, and recently upgraded to the new 4500's. Around here, most career departments use Draegar, including Calgary AB, and much smaller Cranbrook BC (our two biggest neighbour cities). The smaller regional volley depts are a mix of all major manufacturers.

    I have used them all, and while I like Draegar a lot, I also like Scott a lot. Both are excellent systems, and I would be happy with either. As for features, all manufacters work like auto manufacturers. One creates something new, and the others adopt it within a couple of years.


    I feel for you SCBA Guy. Another perfect hijack!
    Good for you, you have Drager!
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  2. #77
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    I check out that FF close calls link.

    I was AMAZED at how many safety alerts and concerns there were with Scott packs!

    NXG2 sounds like a HORRIBLE piece of junk!

    Scott definatly dropped the ball on that pack, trying to "re-invent" the SCBA to keep sales going. Its to bad that so many departments were caught up in the hype and purchased such a sub par SCBA. Sometimes with Grant money meaning they are STUCK with them for a long time!

    ISI wasnt very impressive either.

    That list of ISI problems I have heard before and are the main reasons we wanted to stay away form them. The freezing up in cold weather was the number 1 factor.

    I actualy like the pack design and look. Its low profile all around and it is easy to use. But there are to many glitches.

    Oh, and there is another pack that operates like the Viking, Torjan. The Intersprior is about the same. The air is connected to the mask all the time, you just switch form SCBA air to ambient air.

    I have yet to find ANY safety bullitens and concerns and such with Drager. Like I said, if you can find any I would be greatly appreciative! I woud like to know if there is anything that I need to check out.

    But so far form my research it seems that Drager is as near to being the perfect SCBA as possible!

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    That list of ISI problems I have heard before
    Yes, it's a list that looks like it was copied from Firehouse.com forums. My comment is on there letter for letter.

    Take some of those comments over there the same as you would here, they are statements by FF's (not always facts), some full of personal feelings, some with no feelings.

    Safety alerts/issues from a company are not feelings posted by a guy.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42
    Yes, it's a list that looks like it was copied from Firehouse.com forums. My comment is on there letter for letter.

    Take some of those comments over there the same as you would here, they are statements by FF's (not always facts), some full of personal feelings, some with no feelings.

    Safety alerts/issues from a company are not feelings posted by a guy.
    Has ISI issued any safety bullitens on those issues to your (anybody) knowledge?
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    We haven't used ISI in quite a few years, but when we did, we never received any information from them about any issues with their packs. Even after we reported our failures to the company.

    We use Survivair now, and yes, I have received safety notices. My other company in town uses Scotts, and yes, they have received safety notices.

    Before anyone asks, no Draeger's in the area.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I have searched high and low, has there been any safety notices for Drager?

    I serioulsy would like to know!
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    I don't see major metroploitan FD's flocking to switch to Draeger.

    Off the top of my head: Pittsburg, Miami Dade, Anchorage AK to name a few.
    Don't forget Baltimore, which is why they're wearing Draegers' in Ladder 49.

    The ISI warranty is not voided if you use someone elses bottle in their pack
    But the NIOSH approval is...

    Quote Originally Posted by elswappo
    My department just did testing for new airpacks and decided to go with the NXG2... I'd love to hear your's are working out, were doing a complete switch and info always great.
    If they've gotten the bugs worked out of them, they should serve you well. I have heard about a lot of problems with the NXG2, not just on these forums but from several of my neighboring companies who have gotten NXG2's within the last couple years. Most of them were related to the circuit boards & batteries, like firefighterbeau stated. As far as I know, once they have been fixed they haven't had any other problems.
    Last edited by jpsmith2; 08-13-2005 at 12:04 AM.

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    I hope there is nothing major wrong with the NXG2. But It has most of the same components of the AP50 so I'm not worried. Plus scott stands behind their products I hear. Hope for the best!

    Samson- Drager was number two overall in our testing. The main reason we didn't get them was the mask. Their pack was awsome, and very comfortable, but the mask wasn't up to snuff. Some of our Firefighters were having problems getting a good seal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elswappo
    I hope there is nothing major wrong with the NXG2. But It has most of the same components of the AP50 so I'm not worried. Plus scott stands behind their products I hear. Hope for the best!

    Samson- Drager was number two overall in our testing. The main reason we didn't get them was the mask. Their pack was awsome, and very comfortable, but the mask wasn't up to snuff. Some of our Firefighters were having problems getting a good seal.

    Hmmmm...

    NXG2 issues off the top of my head.

    - Facepiece is flawed, should be addressed by Scott safety tips.
    - Bottle will freeze to the pack! the quck connection will freeze solid and you have to put the pack in the cab of the fire truck and crank the heater to get it loose. This can take a while in some cases. A HUGE issues in colder areas!!!!! May result in haveing to RIC fill your airpack just because you cant change bottles/dont have a backup pack available
    - There have been electronics glitches
    - Cylinders are not compatably with any other SCBA including Scott of other models
    - Some reports of the pac frames busting

    As far as the actualy regulators and such, they are still the time tested Scott first and second stage.

    - First stage Scott reg is basicaly bulletproof
    - Second stage/mask regulator is a cross contamination hazard.
    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    Default On topic

    To actually answer your question, there is a company in Washington, IL called SCBAs. Their phone number is (309)444-7442. They are technicians in most every kind of SCBA if you want to talk with them. They work on both 2.2 and 4.5s. Good choice going to Scott, they are what I have worked with since I began in the fire service. We also started with 2.2s then we upgraded to 4.5s. Hope they work out for your department.

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    Been ignoring this for a while, but, I'm a Draeger man myself.
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    Forgot something.

    Draeger sent us a notice to replace our battery caps for the wirless transmitter on the HUD. The older cap was getting a poor connection. Not a safety issue at all, but might not allow you to use your HUD (not a big deal).
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    Not at all, industry is driven by profits not quality
    And parts of the fire service are not driven by lowest bid? Come on.

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    At least you have good taste in Turn Out gear!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    Whoppy Dooo??? That was then, this is now!! And really. Do I care that the chemical and mining industries worldwide use drager? Not at all, industry is driven by profits not quality. So I guess if you want cheap (and you get what you pay for) then go with Drager.


    So by your logic the most expensive SCBA is the best...

    When was the last time you checked Drager prices?

    They are nowhere near cheap.

    From the current LSS Public Safety Catelog:

    Drager PSS 100 30min 4500: 6048$

    Scott NXG2 30min 4500: 5186$

    MSA Firehawk 30min 4500: 4104$

    Scott AP50 30min 4500: 4061$

    There was no ISI Digital Viking prices in the catelog so I looked them up on the net.

    ISI Viking DXL 30min 4500: 4750$
    http://www.emc4rescue.com/catalogs/s...i/it020001.htm

    Spiromatic S4 30min 4500: 4320$
    http://www.kairinc.com/pl/pages/473

    Surviviar 30min 4500: 3100$
    http://www.modernsafety.com/cgi-bin/...ng%20Apparatus

    Pioneer Pro 30min 4500: Dont know

    LOL, so I guess you get what you pay for, Drager wins again!

    LOL!

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

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    Correct, Draeger packs are very expensive. We got a great deal on ours. In fact, the dealer told our chief someone messed up on the quote.

    Just for future references: The .. on top of the a is an e. So if your computer can't make the symbol, it's spelled Draeger. Even the website is spell with an e.

    Something you won't find anywhere else- Draeger is the only company that has a HUD inside of the mask, protecting it from damage and making it easier to see without blocking your view. The HUD can be pulled right out and snapped back in when cleaning. Also, you don't have to buy some big fancy piece of equipment to talk on the radio. The mask (that we have) has the diaphragm built right in, and it's not some big piece of crap to weigh you down.

    You can also use the to dive in up to 12' of water. Not recommended because of electronics, but if the crap hits the fan...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter1219
    You can also use the to dive in up to 12' of water. Not recommended because of electronics, but if the crap hits the fan...
    That is NOT what that is intended for Josh. It is simply an inherent safety margin meant to protect the firefighter in the event he falls into a flooded elevator shaft or basement, etc. While I have heard first hand of dept's using SCBA for water rescue, it is very dangerous, and should not be condoned or encouraged.

    And it is NFPA now, so they are all supposed to meet that standard.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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    I know. Not saying I would do or condone it. Just stating that if you had to (don't see why) or decided to for some reason, you could.
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    I often use my Draeger for deep sea spear fishing.

    I once dove a 337 foot deep cave with my department issues Draeger PSS100 with sentinal.

    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

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    Last night I saw Draegers PSS 100's listed at $4400. Samson, you're getting ripped off.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    samson

    where did you get these prices? I hope no one is actually paying those prices, out here in NY the avg price for those units is 1,000 less.

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    Im a little confused ---- you start a thread about a board member taking the packs off thr rig , but you take one and go deep sea fishing ? Also where do you go deep sea fishing in Montana ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    Double checked this, not true...aka FALSE....AKA A lie.
    Then please tell me where you got your information from and what it says because the information I have says this:

    "Title 30 Code of Federal Regulations Part 11 (30 CFR 11), state that approved respirators are ones that "are maintained in an approved condition and are the same in all respects as those respirators for which a certificate has been issued. In addition, the regulations permit NIOSH to only approve complete respirator assemblies and prohibit the approval of respirator subassemblies such as cylinders or air supply hoses."

    This means, to me, that NIOSH does not approve cylinders by theirselves, only SCBA as a complete package. Therefore, you cannot have an approved harness assembly & a separate approved cylinder, and put them together to have an approved SCBA. The SCBA is only approved as tested with whatever cylinder they used.

    So unless ISI has had their SCBA approved with every manufaturer's cylinder out there they are feeding you a line of bull.

    I have an email in to NIOSH for clarification on this issue, I would appreciate hearing what you have...

    (PS: I'm talking about routine use, not emergency or escape situations.)

    EDIT:
    In fact, after looking a bit more ISI's own website clarifies the issue...

    "Can I use other manufacturer's cylinders on my ISI SCBA?
    According to OSHA, “approved self contained breathing apparatus may be used with approved cylinders from other approved SCBAs provided that such cylinders are of the same duration and pressure rating.” However, NIOSH (the governing body SCBA manufacturers are approved by) does not agree. Each manufacturer's SCBA is only approved with the cylinders that were submitted for testing to meet approval. Where the confusion with this issue comes in is that NIOSH will allow usage of other manufacturers cylinders, but only in emergency situations."

    Please retract your statement calling me a liar.
    Last edited by jpsmith2; 08-18-2005 at 12:22 PM.

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    Trojan,

    I was speaking about all the packs in general. The prices seem a bit high all together. Anyway just north of Albany.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse
    Looks like you might have lost all credibility. Could it be your are so blind to reality that you will defend the Drager to the death and do whatever it takes.
    C'mon Trojan,

    You weren't seriously debating with this kid for the last twenty posts were you. With this comment:

    I often use my Draeger for deep sea spear fishing.

    I once dove a 337 foot deep cave with my department issues Draeger PSS100 with sentinal.
    If it is not obvious by now that he he is just getting you all riled up for fun, you had better grab a beer and walk away from this one.
    Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

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