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  1. #1
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    Default Denied Training..help me..

    Okay, I have an issue, the training officer on my volunteer department has been denying me the ability to train as a driver/operator for some time now. I have completed one portion of it, but he will not allow me to finish the rest of it, but refuses to tell me why every time I ask. He also denies me the ability to go to things like the NFA, and FDIC conferences. We are a municipal department, and are city employees. Paid per call basis. So I guess it would fall under the normal equal opportunity employment rules, as well as fair treatment. Now I'm not one to normally whine, or complain..but when you have a volunteer department, one of which isn't normally overstaffed at 1300hrs on a Wednesday, and you have a lack of properly trained personnel available. Wouldn't it be smart to have someone who can perform multiple fireground functions without issue? I guess what bothers me the most, is that I have no issue with the Chief, he knows he needs people to be trained in those respects, so I fail to see the problem.
    FF/NREMT-B

    FTM-PTB!!

    Brass does not equal brains.

    Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the ability to control it.


  2. #2
    Forum Member JackTee09's Avatar
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    I would say that you should follow the chain of command if you feel that you have a legitimate beef. However make sure you are on firm ground.

    As someone who has been knee deep in controversy I can tell you that a solid footing is essential.
    Jacktee

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  3. #3
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    I've been knee deep in more than controversy more than once..thanks for the help as well.
    FF/NREMT-B

    FTM-PTB!!

    Brass does not equal brains.

    Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the ability to control it.

  4. #4
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    The NFA (assuming you mean National Fire Academy) has a application process. It does not cost you anything except for meals to attend and of course travel...but you get reimbursed for travel from FEMA.

    As far as FDIC, it is expensive to attend. If you went for 5 days and the rooms were $100/night that is just $500 in lodging and does not include the meals and registration or transportation.

    I am not saying you should not attend, but for a small volunteer department that is paid on call, the expenses involved in sending you may not be within the limits of the budget. Do you know how much is budgeted for training? Are others allowed to go to the same schools and you are not? What is the selection process or criteria if this is happening?

    As far as training for driving.... What is your department requirement to be able to drive? Do you meet all the pre-requisits? How long have you been a member? Is that a factor? According to your Department rules, are you old enough? Are others being trained and you are not? Do you have the same qualifications as they do if this is occurring?

    Just because there may be minimal staffing during daytime hours that does not dictate circumventing department regulations to supplement staffing. If it is a city....city rules may apply since you are considered an "employee."

    What are city rules about "employee training outside the city."

    Need more information here...but reading between the lines, it seems as if it may be a budget issue and a city rules issue as opposed to being unfair treatment.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  5. #5
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    I can tell you I have been in the same spot with my training officer.DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT......... Start by submitting written requests for training, weather it be by physical writing or by email. If no satisfactory answer is received, again submit letters specifically asking for reasons why training is being denied. If then no satisfactory answer is received, assemble them all into one package, and send them all to the training officer's boss, whomever that may be. CC copies to the Union if you are part of a bargaining unit. You should then receive some sort of answer.

    If your being a Driver Operator gets you more salary, you definetly should file a grievance citing being denied fair promotional opportunities.

    But again, DOCUMENT everything and keep copies.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by captstanm1
    The NFA (assuming you mean National Fire Academy) has a application process. It does not cost you anything except for meals to attend and of course travel...but you get reimbursed for travel from FEMA.
    I understand the application process, and within that have been denied the oportunity to apply.

    As far as FDIC, it is expensive to attend. If you went for 5 days and the rooms were $100/night that is just $500 in lodging and does not include the meals and registration or transportation.

    I am not saying you should not attend, but for a small volunteer department that is paid on call, the expenses involved in sending you may not be within the limits of the budget. Do you know how much is budgeted for training? Are others allowed to go to the same schools and you are not? What is the selection process or criteria if this is happening?
    As for FDIC, others have gone this year, and othes have the opprotunity to go to whatever they desire for the rest of the year, we have very large training budget, and is plenty to take care of just the FDIC registration, I was going to take care fo everythign else myself.

    As far as training for driving.... What is your department requirement to be able to drive? Do you meet all the pre-requisits? How long have you been a member? Is that a factor? According to your Department rules, are you old enough? Are others being trained and you are not? Do you have the same qualifications as they do if this is occurring?
    We don't have any pre-requisites other than age, FF 1, and one year of service. I have been with the department 6 years now, I am a WI Certified FF2. I have the same amount of training as others who are currently being trained for the same role, and all joined when I did, we are all within three months.

    Just because there may be minimal staffing during daytime hours that does not dictate circumventing department regulations to supplement staffing. If it is a city....city rules may apply since you are considered an "employee."
    The city does not make the rules we run to within the department, except for the cities safety director.

    What are city rules about "employee training outside the city."
    There are none, unless it's department specific function.

    I hope this helps you understand..bascially speaking, others are getting the opportunity to do these different training scenarioswith the same credentials as I or less, yet I get pushed off to the side for some unknown reason. Doesn't make much sense.
    FF/NREMT-B

    FTM-PTB!!

    Brass does not equal brains.

    Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the ability to control it.

  7. #7
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Then file a complaint throught the proper chain of command. I can not understand why you get denied to apply for training that costs nothing....... Got to be an agenda there...
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  8. #8
    Forum Member JackTee09's Avatar
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    Got to be an agenda there...
    Or there is more going on than we are led to believe.
    Jacktee

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  9. #9
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    Speaking for how things like the NFA and FDIC, etc work on my agency, you must have a "specific area of management responsibility" (key word being "management") for the department to send you, as well as at least 5-10 years in. The reason is that by and large, the classes and seminars they offer are supervisory or management in nature. Generally only Lts. or above can attend things of that nature due to the cost and nature of the training, and if selected, they can only attend the NFA (or similar programs) in thier specific area of management responsibility. As I said before, they generally go to the NFA (or related classes) if they are currently managing or are expected to manage that specific area (safety, public education, finance, fleet management, etc) in the near future. If you are sent to a trade show, it is for a very specific reason, such as an specific department operation (EMS, rescue, etc), upcoming purchase or grant research in the area that you are responsible for managing. This is critical for us as we are a volunteer department with limited funding .. so we need to save the management and policy classes for the managers.

    On the other hand, we are a progressive department and strongly stress fireground training, and will generally send someone to just about any OPERATIONAL/SKILL training they want, including weeklong schools at LSU and Texas Tech for those with as little as 2 years in. It is not uncommon for a firefighter to attend 4,5,6 or more outside trainings (including 2-day overnight programs) a year in a number of operational areas.

    I don't know how many years you have in or if you have any management responsibilities, but there is a good chance the reason they are not sending you is because the classes will have limited OPERATIONAL value as they are designed for management and policy development.

    As far as the driving issue, it is not uncommon here for a person to begin driver training, and then have it stopped because of temprament or driving style. The driver trainers are very aware of how a person handles the speed and size of the vehicle .... and have no problems with dropping drivers out of training if they suspect that the driving style may become an issue. I don't know if that is your situation ... but it's not uncommon in our department.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 08-07-2005 at 07:34 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackTee09
    Or there is more going on than we are led to believe.
    No Agenda..and nothing more going on other than what I have said. The only thing I can possibly think of is the fact I have made suggestions on new things we should maybe begin operating with or at least thinking about trying during training. But instead I usually get shot down, and those things are never tried. I've questioned why, and usually get the response of..you wear a black helmet so you know nothing. I guess I'm just not allowed to question things.
    FF/NREMT-B

    FTM-PTB!!

    Brass does not equal brains.

    Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the ability to control it.

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