1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by stm4710
    You all say that ohh it wasnt that bad, he was out side yadda yadda.

    What wholesome substances do you think were burning down there!!!!! Scented candles???
    PVC,sewer gasses,insulation,transformers with oil in them......if they were old transformers CFC's burning and God knows how many rats.
    Fact is, during the new broadcast things got bad and I watched these guys walk around with NO scba on. It wasnt a 30 second clip.....the reporter was on scene for about 20 minutes.

    Im sorry but just cause there is no smoke doesnt mean there isnt toxic gasses as well. Wear the SCBA and consider it hazardous until otherwise proven. My long term health isnt worth risking to look like a old crusty leather lung on camera. When the BC arrived...every one was in full gear and packed up.



    Also if conditions got so bad they they evacuated the area and citizens had to use the SCBA.....how were those firefighter immune from the same toxic gasses being closer to the manhole??????
    Uh-huh. Congratulations on your very recent promotion from explorer to firefighter.

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    My long term health isnt worth risking to look like a old crusty leather lung on camera.
    Did you know that watching clips from the news promotes bad eyesight - and poor cognitive skills. Be wary because your long term health will suffer.

    Besides - do you want to be healthy forever - your gonna feel silly someday dying of nothing.

    Uh-huh. Congratulations on your very recent promotion from explorer to firefighter.
    WHOA! C'mon - These kids in explorers should be encouraged. They might make a few gaffes once in a while but at least they have devoted themselves to something larger than themselves.
    Last edited by JackTee09; 08-13-2005 at 04:49 PM.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackTee09
    WHOA! C'mon - These kids in explorers should be encouraged. They might make a few gaffes once in a while but at least they have devoted themselves to something larger than themselves.
    Yeah,I guess you're right, but...... wasn't there a "keep quiet and try to learn something if you're new" thread going on here a while back? I mean, would you have ever said anything like that when you were a new guy?

    Sheesh, at least the snot on MY nose is from me not wearing my SCBA!

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    Yeah,I guess you're right, but...... wasn't there a "keep quiet and try to learn something if you're new" thread going on here a while back? I mean, would you have ever said anything like that when you were a new guy?
    That is a valid point - and I was not aware that you were talking about the thread starter - I thought it was someone else.
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    Default C'mon dude.

    Quote by stm4710:Also if conditions got so bad they they evacuated the area and citizens had to use the SCBA.....how were those firefighter immune from the same toxic gasses being closer to the manhole??????
    Attached Images

    Hey pal. I think that picture is pretty self explanatory. I would have offered her some air as well!

    As far as the rest of your comments, the fireman probably just stood out of the smoke. If it comes near you, just say white rabbit 3x's fast. You know like you learned around the camp fire in boy scouts.....or did you mask up there as well?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emberxx
    [B]
    I think the only response I can have to that is 'Wow'. I'm not trying to jump on you, I'm just extremely surprised by that.
    Why surprised? Every subject on this board sparks an argument. It's just that everyone does things different. We don't wear bunkers, you rarely see ff mask up for a fire unless it's real shi#*y, I've never seen anyone mask up for an auto or dumpster - you're lucky if they wear coats. Is it right? Maybe not. But thats how it's done here and I'm sure you could find a hundred other differences between how we fight fires vs. you or NYC or Boston or anyone else. All I know is what works for us. It sounds just as strange to me that you would come off your rig masked up and on air for an auto or that you would use PPV fans. Doesn't make it wrong - just different. Thats where this board could be helpful - you might accidentally find a better way of doing things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stm4710
    how were those firefighter immune from the same toxic gasses being closer to the manhole??????
    hahahaha - thats a funny quote!

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    Quote Originally Posted by clancyxdogg
    [B]Flames and thick black smoke could be seen shooting out from at least one manhole .
    Hey clancy, that one's even more funny!!!!!!! HAHAHAHA

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    Accidentally find a new way? I don't think so.

    I don't see anything wrong with guys not wearing bunker pants on hot days when they aren't around fire or when the job on the fireground is that other than actual fire attack. I never said that I did. But when you are that close to fire, which has tons of smoke - well, as you said we each do things differently. Personally, I would rather spend my retirement days fishing and hunting without carrying my oxygen tank around with me, apparently so would the guys I work with. We wear masks on Auto fires and Dumpster fires, and we wear full bunker on an mvc. I do know guys who still don't like to wear hoods - it's their ears...so...I guess if you dont' want to wear bunker pants it's your...well, ya know

    I just wonder why are so upset when I'm only stating the results of the study that someone else posted?

    That said, however, I respect your opinion, and so I think that we'll just have to agree to disagree. After all, we wouldn't want to spark an argument!
    "When you throw dirt, you lose ground."

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    But when you are that close to fire, which has tons of smoke - well, as you said we each do things differently. Personally, I would rather spend my retirement days fishing and hunting without carrying my oxygen tank around with me, apparently so would the guys I work with.
    EMBER - Are you required to wear your gear?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFFRED
    Where has this been published? I know many Boston Jakes who work in some of their busier houses and none of them ever mentioned these problems. Not saying this isn't the case...just that I'm not aware of those results either through first hand accounts or studies and reports.

    As for the photo...I don't see anything wrong with what we see there.

    FTM-PTB
    Fred...just as an FYI, the study was done for the EFO course at the National Fire Academy by a Boston Jake named Mager. Here's the link again Boston Gear Study
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  12. #37
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    Yes. I've included partial SOGs -

    Personnel shall wear full protective clothing (gloves, optional) when responding in an Engine or Quint to structure fires, transportation incidents, brush/woods/trash fires and hazardous materials calls. Personnel responding to a report of a brush/woods fire on a Brush Unit or Foam Unit shall wear the brush fire protective clothing (unless the situation or available information dictates the use of full protective clothing). Drivers of all vehicles have the option of wearing protective clothing while responding. A safety vest or full bunker gear will be worn when operating near moving traffic. On other calls, including motor vehicle accidents, personnel shall wear protective clothing sufficient to be prepared to operate properly upon arrival. Due to the possibility of fires and/or extrication needs, bunker pants and coat must be worn, although SCBA is optional.

    Helmets are optional within closed cabs, and mandatory outside of closed cabs. When personnel choose not to wear the helmet in an enclosed cab, the helmet must be secured from being thrown and damaging other equipment. Personnel responding to First Response Medical calls may elect to wear full protective clothing or leave them within the apparatus. Personnel riding within command vehicles units have the option of wearing protective clothing while responding.

    Structure Fires:

    On Emergency Scene: Personnel are required to wear full protective clothing, while operating within the incident perimeter. The Incident Commander shall declare when the working area of the incident is safe and therefore modify the protective equipment requirements. Helmet, bunker pants, SCBA, boots, and gloves, however, are required during overhaul operations. Likewise, personnel are always responsible to assume the personal burden of protecting themselves sufficiently against likely hazards to be encountered at emergency scenes.

    Brush/Woods Fires:

    On Emergency Scene: The brush fire protective clothing, (unless the situation dictates the use of full protective clothing) is to be used for brush/woods fires for fire suppression and mop-up operations. The minimum level of protection used by the on scene firefighters for fire suppression and mop-up operations shall be the lightweight nomex protective clothing, boots, helmet and overhaul gloves.

    Hazardous Material Incidents:

    Personnel are required to wear the level of clothing/protective equipment sufficient to protect from the hazard(s) at the incident.
    It is the personal responsibility of the individual employee and the responsibility of Officers to assure compliance with this and other SOGs.

    Fire Alarms:

    Personnel are required to wear full protective clothing while responding and operating within the incident perimeter. The Incident commander shall declare when the working area of an incident is safe, and therefore modify the protective equipment requirements. Helmet, bunker pants, SCBA, boots and gloves, however, are required during overhaul operations. Likewise, personnel are always responsible to assume the personal burden of protecting themselves sufficiently against likely hazards to be encountered at emergency scenes.

    Fire Investigations:

    The Incident Commander may require SCBA.
    Investigators are required to wear the level of clothing and protective equipment sufficient to protect them from the hazards of the particular environment encountered. At a minimum, Investigators must wear protective footwear. Additionally, equipment such as helmets, bunker gear, gloves, may be required.

    Self Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA)/PASS Device:

    Purpose:

    It is the policy of the District that all personnel expected to respond and function in areas of atmospheric contamination, shall be equipped with self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA) and trained in its proper use and maintenance.

    Each member of the Operations Division shall be assigned a personal, fit-tested, SCBA mask. The intent of the SCBA policy is to avoid any respiratory contact with products of combustion, super heated gases, toxic products or other hazardous contaminants.

    The use of breathing apparatus means that all personnel shall have facepieces in place, breathing air from the supply provided. Where appropriate, Airline-Supplied Breathing Apparatus may be used in place of SCBA

    Self Contained Breathing Apparatus shall be used by all personnel operating:

    · In a contaminated atmosphere
    · In an atmosphere which may suddenly become contaminated
    · In an atmosphere which is oxygen deficient
    · In an atmosphere which is suspected of being contaminated or oxygen deficient

    This includes all personnel operating:

    · In an active fire area
    · Directly above an active fire area
    · In a potential explosion or fire area, including gas leaks and fuel spills
    · Where products of combustion are visible in the atmosphere, including vehicle fires and dumpster fires
    · Where invisible contaminants are suspected to be present (i.e. Carbon Monoxide during overhaul)
    · Where toxic products are present, suspected to be present, or may be released without warning
    · In any confined space which has not been tested to establish respiratory safety


    In addition to the above, SCBA shall be worn by all personnel operating at fire incidents above ground, below ground or in any other area which is not, but which may become contaminated by products of combustion or other hazardous substances. In these circumstances only, the SCBA may be worn with the facepiece removed. The wearing of SCBA in these situations provides that it will be immediately available for use if conditions change or if personnel are to enter an area where the use of SCBA is required.

    Premature removal of SCBA must be avoided at all times. This is particularly significant during overhaul when smoldering materials may produce increased quantities of carbon monoxide and other toxic products. In these cases SCBA must be used or the atmosphere must be changed.

    In routine fire situations, the decision to remove SCBA shall be made by Company Officers, with the approval of Sector Officers, based on an evaluation of atmospheric conditions. Prior to removal, fire areas shall be thoroughly ventilated and, where necessary, continuous ventilation shall be provided.

    If there is any doubt about respiratory safety, SCBA use shall be maintained until the atmosphere is established to be safe by testing. Safety Sector personnel shall be responsible for this determination. This is required in complex situations, particularly when toxic materials may be involved.


    Hazardous Materials Incidents:

    No individual may enter any area, enclosure, or structure to size-up or control any hazardous material incident without full SCBA being worn. SCBA shall be worn by all personnel within the incident perimeter contamination reduction (warm) zone and hot zone.

    Fires – Structures/Dump Sites/Dumpsters:

    No individual may enter any area or structure for the purpose of fire fighting, search/rescue, or property conservation (salvage) without full SCBA being worn. SCBA shall be worn by all personnel within the incident perimeter (area bounded by the Incident Command Officer).

    Overhaul:

    No individual may enter any area or structure to perform overhaul functions without full SCBA being worn, unless the environment has been declared safe from toxic elements by the Incident Commander.

    It is the responsibility of each employee to comply with this standard. Additionally, it is the responsibility of all Officers to assure that they and their subordinates comply with this standard.
    "When you throw dirt, you lose ground."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emberxx
    But when you are that close to fire, which has tons of smoke - well, as you said we each do things differently. Personally, I would rather spend my retirement days fishing and hunting without carrying my oxygen tank around with me, apparently so would the guys I work with.
    Ummm, what respiratory disease is caused by not wearing bunker gear?

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    That was my response to this:

    We don't wear bunker gear here at all. By your standards we wouldn't be alowed at any fire? We do just fine without it. I don't mean to get on you specifically - most people on here are bunker gear fanatics and don't think you can do anything without bunkers and full ppe. I just don't agree.


    SCBA. Sorta thought that was part of personal protective equipment.
    Last edited by Emberxx; 08-13-2005 at 09:48 PM.
    "When you throw dirt, you lose ground."

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    If the department requires it-wear it. To repeat all places are different.
    Jacktee

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    Why surprised? Every subject on this board sparks an argument. It's just that everyone does things different. We don't wear bunkers, you rarely see ff mask up for a fire unless it's real shi#*y, I've never seen anyone mask up for an auto or dumpster - you're lucky if they wear coats. Is it right? Maybe not. But thats how it's done here and I'm sure you could find a hundred other differences between how we fight fires vs. you or NYC or Boston or anyone else. All I know is what works for us. It sounds just as strange to me that you would come off your rig masked up and on air for an auto or that you would use PPV fans. Doesn't make it wrong - just different. Thats where this board could be helpful - you might accidentally find a better way of doing things.

    Holly sh**. What works for us may not work for you. What a frikin concept.


    BTW, I think he should be in full PPE and breathing air. And hey where is his back-up man? Silly me, he's grabing that 2 1/2" and a PPV fan.
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  17. #42
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    Chicago -


    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthre...5&page=3&pp=20

    I could say more - but why?

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Emberxx; 08-14-2005 at 03:22 PM.
    "When you throw dirt, you lose ground."

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    Man some of you guys would be freaking out if you came to work with me and saw how often the SCBA is not used. (Outside rubbish, food on the stove, etc. etc.) Do you put your facepiece on before you get to the fire building too?? Stand in a street with a light smoke condition wearing your facepeice too???

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    Yeah - People would freak out if they went a lot of places. Sadly they look at it from their department only.
    Jacktee

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  20. #45
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    I guess I do have one more thing to say. NFPA standards were created for our safety. If you choose to not to follow them, that's fine. But 90% of the departments in this country do. So, I don't think it's looking at it from one person's department.

    I thought that the goal of this was to help people and still make it home after the shift, is this incorrect?

    Here's just a few things to ponder:

    From the IAFF:

    c) Use Respiratory Protective Equipment - Scientific studies show
    that SCBA equipment is effective in minimizing respiratory exposure to
    toxicants, carcinogens, gases, and particulate during firefighting
    activity. However, compliance may often be less than adequate. You
    can't control what is generated by the fire, but you can control what
    you breathe. SCBA use is now universally accepted during the
    knock-down phase, but not during overhaul. Yet, during the overhaul
    phase many toxic constituents and particulates (such as asbestos)
    remain in the air, and a firefighter's risk of lung damage is still
    high. The IAFF strongly supports the use of SCBA's during all phases
    of fire suppression.

    From the Asbestos Foundation:


    Asbestos exposure is linked to asbestosis, lung cancer, and an
    aggressive cancer called mesothelioma. A painful scarring of the
    lungs, asbestosis can take from 10 to 50 years to develop. Early
    symptoms include shortness of breath and chest pain. Eventually, the
    disease leads to disability and impaired respiratory function.
    Mesothelioma is a cancer of the membranes lining the chest, lungs, and
    stomach cavity. Firefighters are more likely to develop the pleural
    form of the disease, which severely impacts breathing and will
    eventually prove fatal. Mesothelioma usually does not develop until
    from 20 to 40 years or more from the victim's first exposure to
    asbestos

    Firefighters may also be exposed to asbestos in routine house fires.
    Insulation around pipes and boilers may contain asbestos. Up to 35
    million homes in the United States may contain Zonolite, attic
    insulation derived from asbestos–contaminated vermiculite, a mineral
    similar to mica. Residential fires can release asbestos from the
    Zonolite insulation, endangering firefighters and homeowners alike.
    The firefighter's asbestos exposure, however, may be repeated,
    persistent, and close up. (See Fire Engineering, Asbestos Still a
    Major Threat, and EPA Issues Vermiculite Warning).

    From Osha:

    "February 03 - A 56 y/o firefighter died from sepsis pneumonia and
    metastic squamous cell carcinoma of the esphagus as a result of
    exposure to smoke and fumes while fighting fires over a 25 year
    period"

    "August 03- A 65 year old retired fire chief developed cancerous brain
    tumors as a result of repeated exposure to smoke during his 34 year
    career as a firefighter"

    "November 03 - A 53 year old firefighter developed cancerous brain
    tumors as a result of repeated exposures to smoke during his 22 year
    career"

    "December 03 - A 75 year old firefighter developed non-Hodgkin's
    lymphoma as a result of repeated exposures to smoke during his 30 year
    career"

    ************************

    If the way that we fight fire hasn't changed to meet the challenges of the times we live in, then something is wrong.

    If you think that this is only a 'possibility' that it could happen to you, that you'll 'take that chance' (geesh, never heard that before) my response to you is this; Statistically isn't likely that I'll win the lottery either, but I know I'll buy that ticket.


    As posted in the above link:

    “The FDNY began using bunker gear in 1994, after which burn injuries dropped from 1,545 in 1993 to about 445 per year.”

    Things that make you go hmmmm.....
    "When you throw dirt, you lose ground."

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    Since Boston is the subject of this thread or at least the pics-what are the stats there??????

    As for looking at the situation from one departments viewpoint, though I was not putting that to you at all, it is a valid point. "Wow - we lay 5 inch lines so everyone else must do the same thing...or if they don't then they must be wrong." Ignorant.

    That is an example of looking at an issue from the perspective of one department. On these forums we have people the world over coming to view threads. While we might like to think that our singular view is all encompassing departments differ! Period. Is it safer to wear an SCBA - sure. It's safer to stay home than show up at a firehouse as well. Maybe we shouldn't make entry until the 3rd armored division arrives to help keep the neighbors back. OMG! This job might, just might be dangerous........aghhhhhhh.

    How about realizing that one size does not fit all. There's a leap of common sense about the fire service.
    Last edited by JackTee09; 08-14-2005 at 04:10 PM.
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    Since Boston is the subject of this thread or at least the pics-what are the stats there??????

    In the link that was listed above. It showed that since the implementation of their new ensembles, they have still had an increase in heat related injuries, and a new increase in the amount of foot/knee injuries.

    As for looking at the situation from one departments viewpoint, though I was not putting that to you at all, it is a valid point. "Wow - we lay 5 inch lines so everyone else must do the same thing...or if they don't then they must be wrong." Ignorant.

    I'm not saying that there should be a one size fits all stamp for every department. Arguing the point is, well, pointless - because I agree with you.

    That is an example of looking at an issue from the perspective of one department. On these forums we have people the world over coming to view threads. While we might like to think that our singular view is all encompassing departments differ! Period. Is it safer to wear an SCBA - sure. It's safer to stay home than show up at a firehouse as well. Maybe we shouldn't make entry until the 3rd armored division arrives to help keep the neighbors back. OMG! This job might, just might be dangerous........aghhhhhhh.

    I never said that you should wait for the artillery to arrive, just wear gear so that if the house flashes over before they do you won't be dead. What exactly is wrong with trying to do our job - which no matter what is a dangerous job, and always will be dangerous - at least a little safer?
    "When you throw dirt, you lose ground."

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    I never said that you should wait for the artillery to arrive, just wear gear so that if the house flashes over before they do you won't be dead. What exactly is wrong with trying to do our job - which no matter what is a dangerous job, and always will be dangerous - at least a little safer?
    What is the normal time frame from the reporting of a house fire to your departments arrival? Is it the same in Chicago, Detroit, Scranton, Jefferson City, Tampa Bay, La? Does everyone arrive with the same number of people? In some places two lines are stretched quicker than one line in other places. People fight fire off the tank while others wait for a supply line. Thus while flashover may be encountered here-in other places water may be applied quicker thus upsetting the thermal...blah, blah, blah.


    If that is your departments approach-great. Wear your gear and scba. I NEVER advocate anyone going against what their department requires. What I am saying is that you are not in ChicagoFF's situation - you are not in his shoes. Thus, while it may seem perfectly reasonable to both you and I that he should wear his gear and SCBA - his department might take a different view.

    Have you taken the time to visit other departments? If so you will note that each operates differently, even if it is very minor. While some concentrate on ladder work others scoff at it. The same is true down the line for every piece of equipment and gear that is used. There is no "ABSOLUTE" way in which all departments treat any issue. Thus an absolute pronouncement will be met with some skepticism.

    Again - I am not advocating what the Jakes in Boston do - what I am saying is that they deal with different situations differently - just like people elsewhere. Chicago is no different.

    Jeez...My head hurts.

    Now-how about a group hug.
    Last edited by JackTee09; 08-14-2005 at 04:42 PM.
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    Alright. ~looking in mirror to see wet noodle lashing marks~ You win. But no hugs.
    "When you throw dirt, you lose ground."

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    You made your points Ember-and I say this with respect - you make them very well. I wish my writing was as lucid as yours.
    Jacktee

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