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  1. #41
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoFF
    Why surprised? Every subject on this board sparks an argument. It's just that everyone does things different. We don't wear bunkers, you rarely see ff mask up for a fire unless it's real shi#*y, I've never seen anyone mask up for an auto or dumpster - you're lucky if they wear coats. Is it right? Maybe not. But thats how it's done here and I'm sure you could find a hundred other differences between how we fight fires vs. you or NYC or Boston or anyone else. All I know is what works for us. It sounds just as strange to me that you would come off your rig masked up and on air for an auto or that you would use PPV fans. Doesn't make it wrong - just different. Thats where this board could be helpful - you might accidentally find a better way of doing things.

    Holly sh**. What works for us may not work for you. What a frikin concept.


    BTW, I think he should be in full PPE and breathing air. And hey where is his back-up man? Silly me, he's grabing that 2 1/2" and a PPV fan.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

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    Success is when skill meets opportunity
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  2. #42
    MembersZone Subscriber Emberxx's Avatar
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    Chicago -


    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthre...5&page=3&pp=20

    I could say more - but why?

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Emberxx; 08-14-2005 at 03:22 PM.
    "When you throw dirt, you lose ground."

    IACOJ

  3. #43
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    Man some of you guys would be freaking out if you came to work with me and saw how often the SCBA is not used. (Outside rubbish, food on the stove, etc. etc.) Do you put your facepiece on before you get to the fire building too?? Stand in a street with a light smoke condition wearing your facepeice too???

  4. #44
    Forum Member JackTee09's Avatar
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    Yeah - People would freak out if they went a lot of places. Sadly they look at it from their department only.
    Jacktee

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  5. #45
    MembersZone Subscriber Emberxx's Avatar
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    I guess I do have one more thing to say. NFPA standards were created for our safety. If you choose to not to follow them, that's fine. But 90% of the departments in this country do. So, I don't think it's looking at it from one person's department.

    I thought that the goal of this was to help people and still make it home after the shift, is this incorrect?

    Here's just a few things to ponder:

    From the IAFF:

    c) Use Respiratory Protective Equipment - Scientific studies show
    that SCBA equipment is effective in minimizing respiratory exposure to
    toxicants, carcinogens, gases, and particulate during firefighting
    activity. However, compliance may often be less than adequate. You
    can't control what is generated by the fire, but you can control what
    you breathe. SCBA use is now universally accepted during the
    knock-down phase, but not during overhaul. Yet, during the overhaul
    phase many toxic constituents and particulates (such as asbestos)
    remain in the air, and a firefighter's risk of lung damage is still
    high. The IAFF strongly supports the use of SCBA's during all phases
    of fire suppression.

    From the Asbestos Foundation:


    Asbestos exposure is linked to asbestosis, lung cancer, and an
    aggressive cancer called mesothelioma. A painful scarring of the
    lungs, asbestosis can take from 10 to 50 years to develop. Early
    symptoms include shortness of breath and chest pain. Eventually, the
    disease leads to disability and impaired respiratory function.
    Mesothelioma is a cancer of the membranes lining the chest, lungs, and
    stomach cavity. Firefighters are more likely to develop the pleural
    form of the disease, which severely impacts breathing and will
    eventually prove fatal. Mesothelioma usually does not develop until
    from 20 to 40 years or more from the victim's first exposure to
    asbestos

    Firefighters may also be exposed to asbestos in routine house fires.
    Insulation around pipes and boilers may contain asbestos. Up to 35
    million homes in the United States may contain Zonolite, attic
    insulation derived from asbestos–contaminated vermiculite, a mineral
    similar to mica. Residential fires can release asbestos from the
    Zonolite insulation, endangering firefighters and homeowners alike.
    The firefighter's asbestos exposure, however, may be repeated,
    persistent, and close up. (See Fire Engineering, Asbestos Still a
    Major Threat, and EPA Issues Vermiculite Warning).

    From Osha:

    "February 03 - A 56 y/o firefighter died from sepsis pneumonia and
    metastic squamous cell carcinoma of the esphagus as a result of
    exposure to smoke and fumes while fighting fires over a 25 year
    period"

    "August 03- A 65 year old retired fire chief developed cancerous brain
    tumors as a result of repeated exposure to smoke during his 34 year
    career as a firefighter"

    "November 03 - A 53 year old firefighter developed cancerous brain
    tumors as a result of repeated exposures to smoke during his 22 year
    career"

    "December 03 - A 75 year old firefighter developed non-Hodgkin's
    lymphoma as a result of repeated exposures to smoke during his 30 year
    career"

    ************************

    If the way that we fight fire hasn't changed to meet the challenges of the times we live in, then something is wrong.

    If you think that this is only a 'possibility' that it could happen to you, that you'll 'take that chance' (geesh, never heard that before) my response to you is this; Statistically isn't likely that I'll win the lottery either, but I know I'll buy that ticket.


    As posted in the above link:

    “The FDNY began using bunker gear in 1994, after which burn injuries dropped from 1,545 in 1993 to about 445 per year.”

    Things that make you go hmmmm.....
    "When you throw dirt, you lose ground."

    IACOJ

  6. #46
    Forum Member JackTee09's Avatar
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    Since Boston is the subject of this thread or at least the pics-what are the stats there??????

    As for looking at the situation from one departments viewpoint, though I was not putting that to you at all, it is a valid point. "Wow - we lay 5 inch lines so everyone else must do the same thing...or if they don't then they must be wrong." Ignorant.

    That is an example of looking at an issue from the perspective of one department. On these forums we have people the world over coming to view threads. While we might like to think that our singular view is all encompassing departments differ! Period. Is it safer to wear an SCBA - sure. It's safer to stay home than show up at a firehouse as well. Maybe we shouldn't make entry until the 3rd armored division arrives to help keep the neighbors back. OMG! This job might, just might be dangerous........aghhhhhhh.

    How about realizing that one size does not fit all. There's a leap of common sense about the fire service.
    Last edited by JackTee09; 08-14-2005 at 04:10 PM.
    Jacktee

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  7. #47
    MembersZone Subscriber Emberxx's Avatar
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    Since Boston is the subject of this thread or at least the pics-what are the stats there??????

    In the link that was listed above. It showed that since the implementation of their new ensembles, they have still had an increase in heat related injuries, and a new increase in the amount of foot/knee injuries.

    As for looking at the situation from one departments viewpoint, though I was not putting that to you at all, it is a valid point. "Wow - we lay 5 inch lines so everyone else must do the same thing...or if they don't then they must be wrong." Ignorant.

    I'm not saying that there should be a one size fits all stamp for every department. Arguing the point is, well, pointless - because I agree with you.

    That is an example of looking at an issue from the perspective of one department. On these forums we have people the world over coming to view threads. While we might like to think that our singular view is all encompassing departments differ! Period. Is it safer to wear an SCBA - sure. It's safer to stay home than show up at a firehouse as well. Maybe we shouldn't make entry until the 3rd armored division arrives to help keep the neighbors back. OMG! This job might, just might be dangerous........aghhhhhhh.

    I never said that you should wait for the artillery to arrive, just wear gear so that if the house flashes over before they do you won't be dead. What exactly is wrong with trying to do our job - which no matter what is a dangerous job, and always will be dangerous - at least a little safer?
    "When you throw dirt, you lose ground."

    IACOJ

  8. #48
    Forum Member JackTee09's Avatar
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    I never said that you should wait for the artillery to arrive, just wear gear so that if the house flashes over before they do you won't be dead. What exactly is wrong with trying to do our job - which no matter what is a dangerous job, and always will be dangerous - at least a little safer?
    What is the normal time frame from the reporting of a house fire to your departments arrival? Is it the same in Chicago, Detroit, Scranton, Jefferson City, Tampa Bay, La? Does everyone arrive with the same number of people? In some places two lines are stretched quicker than one line in other places. People fight fire off the tank while others wait for a supply line. Thus while flashover may be encountered here-in other places water may be applied quicker thus upsetting the thermal...blah, blah, blah.


    If that is your departments approach-great. Wear your gear and scba. I NEVER advocate anyone going against what their department requires. What I am saying is that you are not in ChicagoFF's situation - you are not in his shoes. Thus, while it may seem perfectly reasonable to both you and I that he should wear his gear and SCBA - his department might take a different view.

    Have you taken the time to visit other departments? If so you will note that each operates differently, even if it is very minor. While some concentrate on ladder work others scoff at it. The same is true down the line for every piece of equipment and gear that is used. There is no "ABSOLUTE" way in which all departments treat any issue. Thus an absolute pronouncement will be met with some skepticism.

    Again - I am not advocating what the Jakes in Boston do - what I am saying is that they deal with different situations differently - just like people elsewhere. Chicago is no different.

    Jeez...My head hurts.

    Now-how about a group hug.
    Last edited by JackTee09; 08-14-2005 at 04:42 PM.
    Jacktee

    IACOJ

    "Insert quotation here."

  9. #49
    MembersZone Subscriber Emberxx's Avatar
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    Alright. ~looking in mirror to see wet noodle lashing marks~ You win. But no hugs.
    "When you throw dirt, you lose ground."

    IACOJ

  10. #50
    Forum Member JackTee09's Avatar
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    You made your points Ember-and I say this with respect - you make them very well. I wish my writing was as lucid as yours.
    Jacktee

    IACOJ

    "Insert quotation here."

  11. #51
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emberxx
    This guy is on a fireground. You never know what is going to occur, that's the reason why you bunk out before you reach a fire scene. Ninety degrees or not - it only takes seconds for the conditions to change.
    Okay, not to pick on you, Emberxx -- you just supplied the jumping-off quote...

    I don't know enough about the Boston incident to say whether I think they ought to have been in bunkers and SCBA or not. I do know that it's been damn hot and heat stress is not something to ignore. But let's ignore that a moment and look at the quote:

    This guy is on a fireground.
    Okay, he is. The implication is that, since he's on a fireground he ought to have bunker gear and SCBA on no matter what the circumstances. I disagree.

    We often talk about the need for the fire service to develop a "culture of safety" and I agree. What I worry about is what sometimes develops instead: I call it a "cult of safety". A culture of safety requires knowledge and respect for hazards and an informed process of making safe decisions. A cult of safety relies on sweeping generalizations about safety regardless of whether they apply to the hazard at hand.

    We're all familiar with the old aphorism that says, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail." I often see this happen with bunker gear or, more accurately, interior structural firefighting gear.

    We've indoctrinated our probies with the rule that Bunker Gear is Good and should always be worn at structure fires. And then we procede to require them to wear it, not only to structure fires, but to brush fires, oil spills, CO calls, EMS runs, confined space, etc., etc., etc. All because Bunker Gear is Good and, since it's usually the only PPE we've got, every incident starts to look like a nail.

    The truth is, sometimes bunker gear isn't good. It increases heat stress, hinders movement, gets contaminated, contaminates us, and loses a little bit of its useful service life every time it's worn. A healthy culture of safety would tell us to wear bunker gear when it's appropriate -- for interior structural firefighting -- and not to wear it when it isn't.

    You never know what is going to occur, .... it only takes seconds for the conditions to change.
    If that was true, we'd wear our bunkers 24/7 in the firehouse. Just in case. If we accept it unquestioned as fact because it's for "Safety," we build a cult -- not a culture.

    Case in point: I just watched footage of a mill fire last night. Vacant building, exterior attack, surround and drown, 90+ degree temps. And firefighters standing around in full bunker gear. Not just the handful of firefighters operating master streams (including the guys operating from a bucket where they didn't belong anyway) -- everybody. Two firefighters were treated for heat exhaustion. Do you think they might have avoided that if they had just pulled back personnel not actively fighting the fire and gotten them out of their bunker gear?
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  12. #52
    Forum Member Dave1983's Avatar
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    But 90% of the departments in this country do.

    If you really belive that you need to get out more.
    Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

    IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

    "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
    RUSH-Tom Sawyer

    Success is when skill meets opportunity
    Failure is when fantasy meets reality

  13. #53
    MembersZone Subscriber Emberxx's Avatar
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    "Okay, not to pick on you, Emberxx -- you just supplied the jumping-off quote..."

    Lord, has anyone seen that Dead Horse? I swear he must have run through here about five posts ago... ~sighing... I knew the peace couldn't last.

    Okay, lets begin at the beginning. You might not be talking about the Boston incident, but I was. That was what my post was about, and the fact that in that particular picture that guy is pretty close to some fire. (Let's not go through how far away he was again, gentlemen - it's not length that matters!)

    I don't know enough about the Boston incident to say whether I think they ought to have been in bunkers and SCBA or not. I do know that it's been damn hot and heat stress is not something to ignore.

    Well then, let's not ignore it. According to the study done on Boston - again, link above - since the introduction of the new bunker gear policies in 2003 they have had an INCREASE in heat stress injuries. But, go on...

    "If that was true, we'd wear our bunkers 24/7 in the firehouse"

    Are you kidding me? Surely with the amount of education required for your position you could come up with a better argument than that.

    Okay, he is. The implication is that, since he's on a fireground he ought to have bunker gear and SCBA on no matter what the circumstances. I disagree.

    What implication is that exactly? Oh...wait do you mean the thousands of studies that have proven the detrimental effects of smoke and toxins on our lungs? Or the studies that show the decrease in burns since the introduction of full bunker gear to structural firefighting?

    We often talk about the need for the fire service to develop a "culture of safety" and I agree.

    ~tapping Fire Marshall on the shoulder - ummm, no you don't! See above comments...

    What I worry about is what sometimes develops instead: I call it a "cult of safety". A culture of safety requires knowledge and respect for hazards and an informed process of making safe decisions. A cult of safety relies on sweeping generalizations about safety regardless of whether they apply to the hazard at hand.

    Now that's a comment that I can get behind. (And under as the case may be ). Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with what you've just said.

    We've indoctrinated our probies with the rule that Bunker Gear is Good and should always be worn at structure fires. And then we procede to require them to wear it, not only to structure fires, but to brush fires, oil spills, CO calls, EMS runs, confined space, etc., etc., etc. All because Bunker Gear is Good and, since it's usually the only PPE we've got, every incident starts to look like a nail.

    Since most departments have different ways of doing things, let me explain what we have at hand. Hazmat teams have hazmat suits. ARFF teams have special gear. Rescue trucks carry trauma sleeves, gowns, glasses, masks... Again. Departments are different.

    If your department sees everything as a nail then I think that you should strive to make a positive change for the men you work with.

    The truth is, sometimes bunker gear isn't good. It increases heat stress, hinders movement, gets contaminated, contaminates us, and loses a little bit of its useful service life every time it's worn. A healthy culture of safety would tell us to wear bunker gear when it's appropriate -- for interior structural firefighting -- and not to wear it when it isn't.


    Again, agreed. Are we done with this yet?


    Oh, wait...Dave - Apparently!
    Last edited by Emberxx; 08-14-2005 at 06:57 PM.
    "When you throw dirt, you lose ground."

    IACOJ

  14. #54
    Forum Member JackTee09's Avatar
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    Deputy:


    The cult of safety is the haven for absolutists. That is why serious discussions often end up with terrible endings. Much of that stems from lack of experience - even with people who otherwise consider themselves experienced. Plus, for people who don't study fire and the fire service, there is the added disadvantage of having no foundation from which to build on.

    .
    Jacktee

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  15. #55
    MembersZone Subscriber Emberxx's Avatar
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    Wow Jack...if I was the kind of person who took things to heart that mighta hurt!


    Buttttt (No, not seymore) I think I'll let bygones be bygones. Ahem. So to speak.
    Last edited by Emberxx; 08-14-2005 at 08:56 PM.
    "When you throw dirt, you lose ground."

    IACOJ

  16. #56
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    Thumbs up

    As mentioned by many on this issue if your Department allows this to take place then that's your business. I know in our Department we have SOP's that govern our PPE, and it would require full PPE with SCBA on this type of incident. We also have a Safety Officer assigned to each shift, and he responds to all working fires, entrapments, and calls he feels would require him, or if requested by the IC to oversee the Safety aspect of our JOB. If CFD has a relaxed gear SOP then they will follow it to the T, I do not not agree with it, but they allow it so they have to deal with it should the situation get ugly.

    I know as a responsible Company Officer my job is not to let this take place on my shift. I owe it to my Firefighters to make sure they show up at 08:00 hrs & return home to their family at 08:00 hrs the next morning, and I feel great each morning this happens. I think we all understand it's hot in our gear but it's worn for a reason, use it when necessary, and relax it when necessary. We were promoted to make sound decisions for our personnel do the right thing for you and your crew. STAE SAFE.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emberxx
    Chicago -


    http://forums.firehouse.com/showthre...5&page=3&pp=20

    I could say more - but why?

    Cheers.
    Many agreed with me on that string. I think what it boils down to is that there are vast differences in attitude between cities and less urban areas. Full gear on an auto or a dumpster seems crazy to me. We would need new bottles 10 time a day. As far as structures go, I don't mask up unless I have to. Not saying it's right, but that is how most do it here. No one wears a mask for overhaul or meat on the stove or any of the thousand other calls that you might. We'll just have to disagree on this one.

    P.S. No one else thought the manhole quotes were funny? C'mon!

  18. #58
    MembersZone Subscriber Emberxx's Avatar
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    Many agreed with me on that string. I think what it boils down to is that there are vast differences in attitude between cities and less urban areas. Full gear on an auto or a dumpster seems crazy to me. We would need new bottles 10 time a day. As far as structures go, I don't mask up unless I have to. Not saying it's right, but that is how most do it here. No one wears a mask for overhaul or meat on the stove or any of the thousand other calls that you might. We'll just have to disagree on this one.

    Look, not sure how I ended up being the person defending myself...but to clarify - I'm NOT saying that what you're department does is wrong. You guys have reasons why you choose to wear or not wear specific gear. It's tradition, it's comfort, it's safety - it doesn't matter - it's your choice. If your department allows it - then they must feel that it's safe.

    I never meant to come across as judgemental, but apparently I did, and for that I apologize.

    I also don't necessarily agree that PPE is always required - but hey - when I get backed into a corner I tend to come out swinging. It think it goes back to that whole 'fight or flight' thing - I don't have the flight in me!

    Whadya think Chicago - we could always follow Mcaldwell's suggestion and do the poster death match thing!! Of course I need to see how you look in those wrestling tights first!


    P.S. No one else thought the manhole quotes were funny? C'mon

    Okay...so it was a little funny...just a little.

    ~shake? (not your leg ya dork - hands! geesh!)
    "When you throw dirt, you lose ground."

    IACOJ

  19. #59
    Forum Member JackTee09's Avatar
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    Nah - no wrestling. A good old fistfight.

    Anyway - these pretzels are making me thristy.
    Jacktee

    IACOJ

    "Insert quotation here."

  20. #60
    Forum Member clancyxdogg's Avatar
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    Oh, great- I get back from work and the whole argument's over . I even missed the freakin' hug!

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